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Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves


By aogden, Section Wind
Posted on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 07:12:40 AM MST
Claimed vs Observed Power

I have just done some real world tests on the 12 Volt Mallard 800 from Mikes Windmill Shop.
It is modeled after the popular Hornt generators from Hydrogen appliances using six composite blades covering 59" swept area.
http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/Hornet.html
I have found that they produce about one quarter of the claimed output (green Excel line).
Curve fitting places the generator in the 3.5% overall conversion efficiency range if I'm not mistaken (see Excel graph red line).
http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2397/Mallard_Power_Curve.xls
It is my understanding these folks rate power by using open circuit voltage which may explain the descrepancy in power ratings.
I plant to add test photos, time permitting.
It would be really nice for someone to add their data to the Excel workbook or a comparison!
Regards,
Adrian, Napa CA
Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves | 39 comments (39 topical)

Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by TomW on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 01:23:12 AM MST

Folks;

Any chance someone can convert that to a .jpg or something that those of us who don't happen to have a spreadsheet installed can look at? I would be very interested in seeing the data.

Thanks.

Don't you just hate that kind of business practice, it gives windpower a bad name! [end rant]

Cheers.

TomW

The Truth is the Truth, even if no one believes it; and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it




Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by monte350c on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 05:29:54 AM MST

Hi TomW,

For anyone without a spreadsheet program,

If you need to see spreadsheets that have been done in excel, quattro pro etc. you can download the excellent OpenOffice suite (free) which will work on Linux or Windows boxes:

http://www.openoffice.org/

Ted.

[ Parent ]



Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by jamesmason on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 06:11:07 AM MST

I would also recommend OpenOffice
But if on dial up big file to down load. If you just want to view go excel to the Microsoft site and search the downloads for   Excel Viewer 2003 xlviewer.exe
james

[ Parent ]


Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves - Link Fixed (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by aogden on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 01:25:22 AM MST

The correct link to the Excel Spreadshet is :http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2397/Mallard_Power_Curve.xls



Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Trivo on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 02:12:54 AM MST







Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by TomW on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 09:48:10 AM MST

Trivo;

Thank you so much for posting the pic rather than telling me where i can get more software I don't need so I can look at one chart.

Cheers.

TomW

The Truth is the Truth, even if no one believes it; and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it


[ Parent ]



Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by richhagen on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 10:22:51 AM MST

Very interesting, thanks for posting the data, and thanks trivo for the JPEG.  I see you don't hit 50 watts until about 20MPH, which around here doesn't happen that often.  Most days we have less than 11MPH if the news guys are to be believed. That would leave me with enough power to light a few LED's only on most days according to the graph.  There doesn't seem to be any comparison in the low wind performance to the dual axle machines, as there curves generally start a much lower (5MPH) and tend to already put out reasonable charging current at 10MPH.  
See:  http://www.otherpower.com/bigmills2.html
From their:
....it does very well. It turns in almost no breeze at all, and is cutting in at around 6mph. It does around 200 watts @ 10mph and starts furling at around 22 mph. At 25 mph it's good for about 130 amps into my 12 volt system, so about 1.5KW. It continues to produce good output in higher winds while furling, but it does drop off some. At 40 mph I see about 60 amps and it's very much folded up.....by DANB

Granted the mill is bigger with almost 154 square feet of area, compared to about 12.6 square feet for a four foot prop, but this would be comparable to about 16 watts, or over an amp of charging at 10MPH for the smaller mill, and based on the results of the smaller dual axles, this is in line with what I would expect to see from a properly designed dual axle, which is at least 16 times what is seen at 10MPH (average wind speed in a lot of areas) in the chart posted.  Rich Hagen
'A Joule saved is a Joule made'



Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by richhagen on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 10:27:34 AM MST

Also, see the power outputs posted by Windstuffnow (Ed Lenze) for his 6.5 foot dual rotor axial machine, which is closer in size.  Rich
'A Joule saved is a Joule made'
[ Parent ]


Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by windstuffnow on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 07:56:33 PM MST

  Here is a chart on the 500 watt dual rotor kit...



  The prop is a bit larger than the Hornets but should give you a general comparison.  Take note that just because it will make the power ( above 700 watts ) doesn't mean it will sustain it for long periods.  I have mine set for furling  at 28mph and it does quite nicely for a smaller unit.
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]



Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves (3.00 / 0) (#31)
by aogden on Sun Jun 12, 2005 at 10:15:34 AM MST

Ed,
Am I reading your dual rotor plot correctly? It looks like you are getting 960 Watts at 10 MPH, 420 watts at 5 MPH?
If that's correct sign me up! I want one.
Adrian

[ Parent ]


Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves (3.00 / 0) (#32)
by rotornuts on Sun Jun 12, 2005 at 12:23:07 PM MST

Look at the numbers above overlapping the graph. At 10 I think it's 63 watts Still a nice and UNDERRATED unit.

mike

[ Parent ]



Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves (3.00 / 0) (#33)
by windstuffnow on Sun Jun 12, 2005 at 05:46:58 PM MST

  No it doesn't perform that good.. I wish it did!  I couldn't figure out how to get the bottom number to represent the windspeed from the chart...  Mike saw it correctly, the numbers in the lower line on the chart is the windspeed and at 10mph it makes 63 watts.
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]


Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by richhagen on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 03:58:44 PM MST

I keep writing dual axle when I mean dual rotor axial flux, sorry.  Rich
'A Joule saved is a Joule made'
[ Parent ]


Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by ADMIN on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 12:54:50 PM MST

We've wanted to test the Hornet and Mallard out for some time, since their power output claims have seemed outrageous since day 1. Never got around to it, because of so many other fun and practical wind power projects going on up here. Thanks for the data, it was about what I expected......no significant power at all in common, low winds. We live in an extremely windy area -- Zones 6-7 -- and still rarely see 20+ mph for any extended periods.

It's sad to see misleading advertising, but that's the real world! Caveat Emptor, and TANSSAAFL! (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch).

ADMIN



Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by ADMIN on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 12:56:29 PM MST

Ooops, I misspelled the acronym. Sorry, Mr Heinlein, don't roll in your grave too fast.
;~)

TANSTAAFL!

[ Parent ]



Question about that blade design (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 05:28:38 PM MST

I've noticed that the hornet (and one or two knockoffs) has blades that are "pointy" - with a long chord near the hub and a short one near the tip, in what looks like about a 1/r relationship.  Also, I think I've seen calculations on optimal blade profiles that also shrink the chord as it gets farther from the hub.

But I haven't seen any theoretical argument about why that's supposedly good.

Further, I note that the big commercial mills don't do that, and neither do aircraft propellors, boat propellors, and a number of other pieces of lift-mediated, rotating, fluid/mechanical interface machinery.  This makes me dubious about the design approach.  (The above power curves help to deepen my skepticism.)

Can somebody tell me why designers sometimes do this, or point me to an explanation?



Re: Question about that blade design (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by jimjjnn on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 09:00:55 PM MST

I might conjecture on the shape of the blades as to noise factor. Does the smaller width at the tip lower noise levels. When I was in the marine reserves in '52 I was an A?C mechanic on the F8F Bearcat 18 cyl engine with wide propellor blades. Terrificaly noisy wind sounds from the blades. We always had to wear ear muffs. The corsair was even noisier due to the 13 foot blade span. Worse than the Bearcat tho both had same engine.
Denver,CO
[ Parent ]


Re: Question about that blade design (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by aogden on Sat Jun 11, 2005 at 01:08:30 AM MST

The noise is not bad at all, I could barely hear it over the engine noise.  The thing spins at tremendous speeds though my guess the TSR is very high.
Adrian

[ Parent ]


Re: Question about that blade design (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by Victor on Sat Jun 11, 2005 at 08:15:30 AM MST

Hi Rod,

  The taper is because the lift of an airfoil is proportional  to it's relative velocity squared a high speed rotor can have very narrow blades or low solidity. The inner portion of the same rotor looks the same as a low speed rotor of smaller diameter and thefore requires (mathamatically) a higher solidity.

or

 Since a turbine blade at half span has a relative speed close to half of the tip (not exactly half, do to the change in relative wind angle) and lift is proportional to speed squared the planform very nearly follows the 1/r relationship that you noticed.

 This is all based on finaite analisis and Betz theory for each "ring" of air swept by the blade section in question, and assumes that the turbine runs at a constant TSR

 "Further, I note that the big commercial mills don't do that".

 Really! I have never seen a large wind turbine that did not have tapered blades. The root is normally very compromised for economic and structural reasons. (Take a look at Enercon's new turbines to see wide and twisted roots, and read their claims to higher efficiencies). Also many of the older utility scale turbines drive induction generators and run at near constant RPMs and therefore variable tip speed ratios which would effect the design planform. The current trend, however is toward variable speed, ei constant TSR.

Make the wind fun!

Victor Creazzi
Aerofire Windpower
www.aerofirewind.com

 

[ Parent ]



Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by windrules on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 06:15:35 PM MST

Well I can say I feel a whole lot better about my single rotor 3 phase genny after reading these figures.I at least are getting about 5 amps at 12 volts at about 10 mph whith which I wasn't that pleased before.
Regards,
Mos




Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by georgeodjungle on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 11:15:00 PM MST

so........
if you were to use a what they call a 24v hornet on a 12v system.
that would be like 6 amps+ @ 10 mph.



Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by georgeodjungle on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 11:29:27 PM MST

ops.
my falt.
i read amps when it was WATTS.
woh. so what would be a 6 watts of pure power.

[ Parent ]


Mallard / Hornet - Pictures (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by aogden on Sat Jun 11, 2005 at 01:51:23 AM MST

Okay here are those pictures I promised, hopefully this works! Adrian








Re: Mallard / Hornet - Pictures (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by Flux on Sat Jun 11, 2005 at 02:25:21 AM MST

Just a few general comments. To get any power from a small high speed alternator requires a prop with high tsr. These have very low starting torque and so the blades are taken as near as possible to the ideal shape with thin tips, very wide and steeply angled roots. This large root section contributes a lot to starting but during running I find it makes the tracking tsr with wind speed very critical and beyond a certain point I am not even sure it doesn't add more drag than it's worth.

With small high speed props, the loss due to bearing friction and also iron loss in this case is more than it can produce in low winds so the low wind performance is poor. Results in high winds can be good and you get nice big power figures for sales literature. This can be quite useful for boats at sea or in high wind areas to supplement solar, but as a general power source even in good wind areas it will be poor.

For good results in low winds with a small prop you need a lower tsr so that bearing friction is not a major issue and you can't afford the iron loss of a slotted iron core, that is why the dual rotor designs do so much better. It is very difficult to have the best of both worlds so a dual rotor matched to low winds will not be as impressive at 30mph.  The shape of the power curve above 15 mph is much easier to match than the shape from 5 mph to 30. If you use star delta or similar you can do better but if you optimise for one condition it is usually wrong for the other and it spends a lot of time in the wrong mode.

If you want steady power often then dual rotor is the way to go. If you only want the higher power and want as much as possible when it is there, then matching to high winds is better.

As blade size increases this becomes less of an issue as the low wind output becomes adequate for the needs without taking steps to extract the full potential of high winds.

[ Parent ]



Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by rotornuts on Sat Jun 11, 2005 at 12:28:13 PM MST

I'm full of opinion so I'll fire mine into the mix. If the hornet blades were say 14 - 16' in diameter then the cord of the outer third would be usefull but at 4'11" I have a hard time believing the narrow cord of the outer third is good for anything but warp speed noise production. These guys built thier blades from the root out not the tip in which in my humble opinion is bass ackwards.

Mike



Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by Vernon on Sat Jun 11, 2005 at 02:06:42 PM MST

Nice Spreadsheet, faulty data.

The key is "the only load was a new 12V battery". The fact that only a small amount of current resulted at a terminal voltage of 13.4V indicates that it was fully charged. In order to get the power claimed you have to load the unit with consideration of both the available torque and the internal Thevinin impedance of the generator. In the real world maximum power may not be as important as amps into a discharged battery. You will get both a lot more power and a better view of efficacy in service if you first discharge the battery into a headlight lamp until the terminal voltage reaches 10.5V (rated capacity point). Repeat the test and note current and power at each wind speed for this better matched load.

For ideal output one would use a higher voltage battery, say 48V and a microprocessor controlled step up regulator that provides the optimum power tranfer at each wind speed.



Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves - validity (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by aogden on Sat Jun 11, 2005 at 02:29:55 PM MST

Point well taken, I did the best that I could with my mobile load bank.
I think the elevated Voltage is mainly due to metering lead losses.
The power curve does compensate for elevated Voltages, line and diode losses up to about 17 volts when the deep cycle Battery became over charged. I feel the error due to load mismatch is minimal due to the 100 Volt open circuit charastics.   With a discherged battery it would have started to charge at slightly lower wind speed.
Regards, Adrian - Napa, CA

[ Parent ]


Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves - validity (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by Flux on Sat Jun 11, 2005 at 03:38:24 PM MST

You are right Adrian, this is not the same thing as a car alternator regulated at a fixed voltage. The source impedance is high and a few volts difference will not matter. A lower voltage battery would reduce cut in speed a little but the current would not be significantly different. It is likely that your higher volts at higher speeds is in its favour rather than against it.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves - validity (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by Vernon on Sat Jun 11, 2005 at 05:17:39 PM MST

You will note that at wind speeds above 24 MPH the test results actually exceed the curve published by the manufacturer (expected output). It is reasonable to believe that a discharged battery with its lower impedance and lower opposing voltage would provide a better impedance match at low speeds and the manufacturers specs would be vindicated. The unit can't produce power unless it is generating at a voltage higher than the battery voltage plus the forward diode drop. I am sure if a couple of headlights were switched in at 4 - 5 mph that would eliminate the "surface charge" effect, drop the battery voltage to 12.5 or so and allow the alternator to supply some power at that speed. Having such a connected load would make the evaluation more realistic .... and fair to the manufacturer in question.

I am not in any way connected to the manufacturer but it seems wrong to slam the machine when the test is not realistic.

[ Parent ]



Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves - validity (3.00 / 0) (#27)
by aogden on Sun Jun 12, 2005 at 12:03:36 AM MST

I believe my tests were valid, we are not dealing with a standard alternator here, there is no Voltage regulation that I am aware of.
The expected curve (red) is not the manufacturers curve it is projected based on  efficiency standards from this forum. The curve was fitted by varying the efficiency varible to 3.5 (blue) such that the curve fit the observed data (green) reasonably close.

Here is the manufacturers data for the 12 Volt 800E:

  1. RPM ---- 21.34 volt----11.63 amps----248.18 watts
  2. RPM ---- 28.86 volt----14.58 amps----420.77 watts
  3. RPM ---- 34.4 volt ---- 16.42 amps----564.84 watts
  4. RPM ---- 48 volt ------ 19.5 amps ----- 936 watts
Voltage taken open loop, current taken with load battery at ~13.8 Volts.

Respectfully, Adrian


[ Parent ]



Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves - validity (3.00 / 0) (#28)
by commanda on Sun Jun 12, 2005 at 03:33:23 AM MST

So, the actual power delivered to the battery is
  1. watts
  2. watts
  3. watts
  4. watts
Amanda


[ Parent ]


Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves - validity (3.00 / 0) (#29)
by Vernon on Sun Jun 12, 2005 at 07:25:27 AM MST

I think having the open circuit voltage and the current under some undefined load makes it an apples vs oranges vs grapes sort of thing.

One way to proceed would be to measure the open circuit voltage at a given RPM, then, maintaining that RPM, measure the short circuit current. Solve, using ohms law, for the internal impedance of the generator. Connecting a load that is exactly equal to that impedance will then result in maximum power at that RPM. Impedance may change somewhat with speed (frequency) so readings should be taken across the speed range. This characterizes the generator and determines how much power it can deliver (if sufficent cooling is available). The prime mover must then provide the torque neccessary to deliver that power and any test load must also acommodate these characteristics. At a given velocity the turbine will have an unloaded speed, a stalling speed when heavily loaded... and somewhere in between a "sweet spot" speed of maximum output. All these factors influence the ideal load at a given wind speed and one needs to establish that ideal load to get maximum power. Assume, for example, that the internal Z is 1 ohm but connecting a 1 Ohm load stalls the prop .. well max power may actually require a 5 OHM load. A 20 ohm load may unload the prop and let it free wheel with the wind speed. The point being that some care and a complex control may be necessary to get all of the available power.

[ Parent ]



Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves - validity (3.00 / 0) (#30)
by DanB on Sun Jun 12, 2005 at 08:18:44 AM MST

I should think that a good test is a 'real world' sort of situation where we're charging batteries.  If the machine is intended to charge 12V batteries than it makes no sense to claim that it produces power at rpm/voltage below 12V.  I would agree that a 'full' battery is probably not the best way to go.  A half charged battery of decent size should give a 'rough' idea though.

[ Parent ]


Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves -further testing (3.00 / 0) (#34)
by aogden on Sun Jun 12, 2005 at 11:36:45 PM MST

It is my intent do real installed testing of various small non-comercial low wind speed models howerver I have not purchased all of the data acquisition equipment yet. Also it hinges on whether Napa county lets me proceed with an installation as my site is highly visable.  I will post more conclusive results here later.

[ Parent ]


A/D converters (3.00 / 0) (#35)
by wdyasq on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 05:07:42 AM MST

Take a look at the DataQ line of Analog to Digital converter starter kits.  I purchased their bottom of the line at $25 and traded it for the next one up at $50 for the much increased features.  They come with enough Winbloze software to do just about anything needed with windpower, IMO.

http://www.dataq.com/

The DI-148 ($50) has an 8 channel input, 'event' recording and many other features that will allow one to measure more than just windspeed and output.  

Good luck,

Ron
Adventure is just bad planning." -- Roald Amundsen
[ Parent ]



Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves - validity (3.00 / 0) (#36)
by Vernon on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 08:41:11 PM MST

A half charged battery would be a huge improvement.

You can get power below 12V and all the way down to very low voltage if you use a stepup regulator. This device stores energy in an inductor by allowing output of the machine to ramp up current in the inductor, that current is interrupted by switching off the control transistor and the inductor discharges into the battery .. the voltage rises to the value that it takes to continue current flow and transmitt the stored energy to the circuit. This is similar to an ignition system.

The advantage to such a system is that it can be designed to precisely transfer the available power for any useful wind speed .... say 5 watts and up, regardless of generator terminal voltage. If wind speed is high and power is not needed the switching transistor can turn on and short the generator through the inductor ... preventing overspeed while "kicking" every few hundred milliseconds to maintain float voltage. One helpful accessory might be an angle of attack vane located between, or at the end of, one of the blades (a dummy would be added opposite for balance). At low loads the angle of attack would be low and as load increased the angle would increase until a stall point was reached. The controller would maintain an AOA a couple of degrees under stall and force maximum generation.

Some people may want to use a wind turbine at a vacation cabin. A situation could occur where there was a breeze all week, the turbine was putting out 6 to 8 volts with the battery at 11.2V .. but no charging took place. If the system had been matched the battery might be fully charged and floating at 14.2 ! The cost per KWH of wind power is relatively high and a transition to home installations might be expedited if you can recover every potential KWH.

[ Parent ]



Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves (3.00 / 0) (#37)
by laskey on Thu Jun 16, 2005 at 12:03:16 AM MST

What we need it a simple way to test these gennys that everyone can agree on.  If we start choosing all manner of test gear, and riggs we end up with confusion about what the numbers mean.

I for one think that we will never find a test situation that can give us the numbers we'll see in actual use. (you might get close) I really don't have a problem with open circuit voltage and short circuit current... hell, that's how they rate solar panels, they're never right under actual usage, but we're all happy with it for some reason.  It's the only way we're all going to arrive at the same numbers in any event.

Those are my two cents,
Chris



Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves (3.00 / 0) (#38)
by Vernon on Fri Jun 17, 2005 at 09:34:22 AM MST

Good idea ...

Find the open circuit voltage of the generator and the short circuit current at three points on an RPM curve.

Find the maximum torque at RPM produced by the turbine at the average wind speed.

Beyond that, the characteristics are complicated. A good test would be driving that vehicle mount setup at the average wind speed and measuring ampere hours per hour into a fairly large battery that is discharged (10.5V) at the start of the test.  That would a good general approximation of performance and might be a good comparison method. One has, after all, the greatest need for energy and recovery when the battery is discharged and the time to recharge would be a key installation parameter.

I also think that, in the interest of competing with utility power, the turbine has to have sophisticated controls that extract every available watt hour.

[ Parent ]



Re: Mallard / Hornet 800 Power Curves (3.00 / 0) (#39)
by ghurd on Fri Jun 17, 2005 at 11:48:33 AM MST

""I also think that, in the interest of competing with utility power, the turbine has to have sophisticated controls that extract every available watt hour.""

I would rather lose 20% and just make something a little larger,
than have anything sophisticated to be breaking down.
Changing a diode is quick, easy, and cheap.
Fixing anything 'sophisticated' is not.

Kind of the KISS idea.
Most of us are having enough troubles already!

Just 2 cents,
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]



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· http://www .otherpower.com/images/scimages/2397/Mallard_Power_Curve.xls
· Also by aogden

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