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Electric Sail Boat


By ghurd, Section Mechanical
Posted on Mon Jun 13th, 2005 at 06:00:42 AM MST
Electric boat options

A friend of a friend is changing a blown 10 HP diesel to a 36V 4 or 5HP DC motor from a golf cart, with 3 12V batteries, as this was recommended to him by a company.  I don't think it is enough.

They did recomend a controller.

It is a 22 foot sail boat I believe.  I do not know the width.
The boat is an inland boat, and not on the oceans.

The DC will be used mostly for into and out of a very small port.

Any suggestions or advice for him?

Thanks,
G-

Electric Sail Boat | 14 comments (14 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Electric Sail Boat (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Bryan1 on Mon Jun 13th, 2005 at 02:04:29 AM MST
(User Info)

Hiya Ghurd,
           Using ohms law on the battery spec's you put up the current draw under load would be 104 AMPS which would kill the batteries very quickly. Why isn't your mate just replacing the blown engine with another diesel.

Cheers Bryan



Re: Electric Sail Boat (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Psycogeek on Mon Jun 13th, 2005 at 03:33:17 AM MST
(User Info)

he needs ballast :-)
sorry just had to say that.

[ Parent ]


Electric wind (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by wdyasq on Mon Jun 13th, 2005 at 04:52:07 AM MST
(User Info)

Go for it.  5HP is probably about twice what he needs.  He will love the quiet.  I would inagine he will have more than enought time running and if he can keep his speeds lower, his run tiems will go up dramatiaclly. A displace boat only needs 1HP per thousand pounds displacement to do 'hull speed', a function of the square root of the length along water. The power needed goes down dramatically as speeds lower.

And, as reliable as diesels are, if the engine wasn't maintained the first time, why should we think it wil be maintained this time?  Diesels are considered noisey, nasty, in small boats they are usually a secondary consideration for access (or last), diesel permeates the boat if spilled and electric power is just plain 'kewel'.  Although I doubt the batteries will get any more attention than the old diesel did. It may be a source of good used, only slightly abused, batteries.

Normally an electric motor needs to be only 1/3 the rated power of a gasoline engine and 1/2 that of a diesel.  Most displacement boats are well overpowered as they come from the factory (or builder).

Ron
Adventure is just bad planning." -- Roald Amundsen



Re: Electric wind (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by ghurd on Mon Jun 13th, 2005 at 10:14:37 AM MST
(User Info)

Bryan and Ron,

The boat was in for routine maintainance with no real problems, and the mechanic blew the motor.
He offered to fix it at a reduced rate!

I don't know the weight or the water line.
The 1HP per thousand pounds is going to help.

The company he called recommended 3 12V batteries, but I don't know the AH.
I figured 6 T-105s was the way to go.
The motor needs a lot of amps either way.

They recommened 4 to 5HP "minimum".
Another friend had a larger sail boat with a 7HP diesel, and it would go along quite well at a fast idle.

Maintainance shouldn't be a problem, they live on the lake with the dock in the yard.

Thanks
G-

[ Parent ]



Re: Electric wind (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by whatsnext on Mon Jun 13th, 2005 at 01:57:40 PM MST
(User Info)

Have the guy do a google seach for 'electric wheel marine' and he'll find a company doing just that. Fuel is fuel and batteries are not any where near as power dense as a petrol tank so he'll need a bunch of batts, like a golf cart. He'll also need to support the thrust loads away from the motor itself. Why can't the guy just sail in and out of the slip or run a little four stroke OB on the transom? I've seen thirty ot fourty footers get pushed around just fine with little motors. They just won't beat out a storm or push past heavy seas. Your friend can avoid that stuff by just staying home when it rains. The best rule I ever learned about sailing was 'less is more'. If he wants electric power they make huge electric outboards for pontoon boats now. He could fill in the shaft hole and make his boat perform better by keeping the prop out of the water when not in use.
John.........

[ Parent ]


Re: Electric Sail Boat (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by thunderhead (mail me from my homepage!) on Mon Jun 13th, 2005 at 05:01:39 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.simon.richardson.net/mailme.htm

Is it worth using a controller that can "regenerate"?  After all, a well-coupled propellor will "windmill" when the boat is sailing, and if this recharges the batteries that should provide power for access at journey's end.

Does he have batteries on the boat for things like lighting and running services?




Re: Electric Sail Boat (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by ghurd on Mon Jun 13th, 2005 at 10:23:42 AM MST
(User Info)

I had not though of that!
Even if there were a small 3 amp genny on the shaft, it would help.
Probably needs a way to disconnect it or it would be a drag on the motor while powering along.

There is a 12V battery for lights, etc.

G-

[ Parent ]



Re: Electric Sail Boat (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by whatsnext on Mon Jun 13th, 2005 at 03:03:43 PM MST
(User Info)

Of course this would cause a lot of drag and that would cause the boat to slow down and heel over more in the wind.

[ Parent ]


Re: Electric Sail Boat (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by thunderhead (mail me from my homepage!) on Tue Jun 14th, 2005 at 07:13:10 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.simon.richardson.net/mailme.htm

Of course this would cause a lot of drag and that would cause the boat to slow down and heel over more in the wind.

The drag caused by having a fixed prop in the water will be quite small.  There is some debate about "windmilling" online, but lots of sailboats have fixed props.  Long shaft outboards have only become common quite recently.  If you buy an old yacht with a motor, chances are the prop is in the water all the time.

The other thing to remember about boats is that any design has a "hull speed", and below this speed the boat can easily move through the water, but once you exceed it the drag forces go way up.  Once hull speed is reached, it is very hard to get a boat to go any faster.  Dinghies will lift out of the water, but a yacht is ballasted differently, and normally the keel stays in the wet stuff.

By measuring the speed of the windmilling prop, it should be possible to determine when hull speed is reached, and apply regeneration at this point.  Yes, once it is regenerating it is going to produce some drag, but since hull speed has already been reached, the drag is likely to be irrelevent, reducing speed by only a few percent.  Below hull speed the regeneration electronics should detect the prop RPM and electrically disconnect the motor/generator to save drag.

A boat that has a hull speed of 3m/s (6 kts) should be able to generate about 3 1/2 kW at the Betz limit from a 15" prop (water is much more dense than air).  But if your boat is carrying (say) 24kWh of storage - enough to provide plenty of ballast, and to run a 6kW motor for 4 hours/24 nautical miles - then you might want to generate only 1kW to recharge the batteries.  That gives you 24 hours at hull speed to recharge the whole bank ready for arrival in port.  The drag represented by 1kW at 3m/s is 333N - about 75lbs of drag.  But in a stiff wind you're never going to notice that.

Poking around on the Internet shows that this is not just theory.  Solomon Technologies are already fitting electric motors with regeneration to yachts.

http://sailingwaypoint.com/
http://www.catamaranco.com/electricLagoon/faq.htm

I still think I'd use a 24v system, so the auxiliaries could be run from the traction battery, and the PV panel/windmill setup could keep the traction battery "topped up".

But that's details.  The main point is that the system works.

There's also a nice explanation on the catamaranco website about why electric motors don't need as much power as diesel motors.  It's to do with matching torque to the prop.

[ Parent ]



Re: Electric Sail Boat (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by tecker on Mon Jun 13th, 2005 at 05:37:22 AM MST
(User Info)

   I would use a Briggs etek motor  8hp continuous 20 hp start and 3000 + Rpm needs a battery or two more but the efficiencies are much better



Re: Electric Sail Boat (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by ghurd on Mon Jun 13th, 2005 at 10:44:37 AM MST
(User Info)

A quick Google shows those are nice.

A guy even put one on top of a 10HP outboard.

Almost sounds like an ECM or F&P somehow.
Neo mags too, if I read between the lines.
G-

[ Parent ]



Re: Electric Sail Boat (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Oso on Mon Jun 13th, 2005 at 02:05:22 PM MST
(User Info)

Any change from the original diesel engine is going to affect the future ability to sell the boat and it will affect the value of the boat.

If that is not an issue, the next question is, what are the wind and currents in his favorite sailing areas ? For the San Joaquin/Sacramento River Delta or the Columbia River Gorge, the 5 hp electric would be inadequate.  On the other hand, for Lake Meade, you could use a 24 volt trolling motor hung off the stern.  Add a solar panel for battery charging at the docks. Get rid of the prop and shaft entirely, and have a better sailing boat with more storage room.


[ Parent ]



Re: Electric Sail Boat (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by nanotech (darrin(dot)moore(at)gmail(dot)com) on Mon Jun 13th, 2005 at 02:24:31 PM MST
(User Info)

Please don't take offense, but I'm scratching my head wondering how a 5hp DC motor would be inadequate for in-harbor movement of a sailboat.

The largest motor EVAmerica sells for a CAR (for highway use) is 30hp!!  And that's to propel a 2,000lb vehicle and a 1,000lbs of batteries down the freeway at 60mph!!

I'm thinking a 5hp DC motor would FAR outstrip the original 10hp Deisel for performance.

But that's just me.
__________________________________________
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru!
[ Parent ]



Re: Electric Sail Boat (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by whatsnext on Mon Jun 13th, 2005 at 03:00:48 PM MST
(User Info)

I'm scratching my head trying to figure out how 5=10. The electric might have more low RPM torque but 5hp is still not 10hp. Electric cars do not have very high top speeds even if they come out of the hole well. Try driving a large sailboat(often 20,000 lb or more) into heavy seas and a strong headwind(they go together) and tell me how 5=10 or any other number. Unlike a car where you can just 'pull over' a boat can leave you in places you don't want to be. It's not just 'moving' the boat because you can row an enormus craft in very calm water. The important thing is sizing the motor to give you the power you need durin the bad times. If this guy sails out of his back yard an electric trolling motor would be good to try for reasons already stated in this thread. If the guy was a very hardcore sailor he would scoff at motor use but if he is more normal he'll motor a lot and will need a proper powerplant.
John.........

[ Parent ]


Electric Sail Boat | 14 comments (14 topical, 0 editorial)
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