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2 cylinder VAWT


By rotornuts, Section Diaries
Posted on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 03:51:15 AM MST
Playing with cylinders

I was googling for info last night to learn more about airflow around cylinders under diff. conditions etc. and I had this idea pop in my head. I was curious to see how well a straight cylinder would work in close proximity to another. I thought about it after reading some structural engineering goop about columns and thier spacings and how it affects lift forces on the columns.



Just goofing around but it works not bad

The tabs/flaps/trailing edge thingies or whatever you'd like to call them are to simply let the unit know which way to turn but I'd bet it woud keep rotating in the same direction without them if you nudged it at the start. BTW, it self starts nicely.

The simple plan


Anyhow, just having some fun.

Mike

2 cylinder VAWT | 61 comments (61 topical)

Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by electrondady1 on Tue Jun 07, 2005 at 11:51:24 PM MST

slick roto, very slick! do you think your geting any of the venturi effect you've been looking for? if looks fab. from any direction.whats your gut feeling on rpm/torque. if the thingies could seperate and distend from the cylinders you could get a darius type boost. if the next one is shaped like a yin yang symbol...



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by rotornuts on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:18:46 AM MST

Funny you should say because the next one is shaped like a yin yang symbol. I'm just trying to work out the space between.

[ Parent ]


Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by XRay on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:42:37 AM MST

What happened to the venturi (Lenz whatever) rotor?
I have seen this before, but the cylinders where rotating creating lift.

Ray

---------------------
You dont know how little you know.
till you know enought to know that you still know nothing



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by rotornuts on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 07:24:59 AM MST

This little thing actually should utilize the venturi effect through the center to accelerate the shed vorticies and help them adhear to the opposite cylinder on the down wind side creating additional lift, If it wasn't for the axle possibly screwing that up. That's the theory anyway. I did this thing because I'm trying to understand the airflow around these things better. It's interesting what starts to happen as the rpm increases but it's nearly impossible to predict because of the unusual flow characteristics of rotating cylinders of varying surface roughness. I know the unit as a whole isn't a cylinder but the faster it rotates the more it "appears" as one. With a hole through the center I'd speculate the air flow throught the center simply occilates at higher rpm. I'm hoping to learn something from these kinds of experiments. Also as a rotating cylinder regardless of surface roughness accelerates the angles of the incoming and departing airflows changes as the stagnation points starty to move towards the upwind side of the cylinder. Question is how to take full advantage of that. Another question in my mind is what kind of effect does the boundry layer around the cylinder as a whole have on reducing the drag on the upwind side if any at all. A blunt leading edge like in the above model should present alot of drag but as part of a rotating cylinder it may not be that bad.

I'd give my left...  for a wind tunnel.

Mike

[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Kwazai on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 07:28:43 AM MST

will one of these vawt run off a ventilator fan( three speed window fan)?


[ Parent ]


Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by ghurd on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 08:15:23 AM MST

They dimple golf balls for some kind of improvement.

Stray thought,
G-

[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by rotornuts on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 08:46:35 AM MST

The dimples create a turbulent boundry layer rather than a laminar one. the turbulent boundry layer stays attached to the sphere longer reducing overall drag.

Mike

[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by XRay on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 08:52:44 AM MST

I have difficulties to imagine how lift is created on the down site, actually the hole concept gifs me difficulty's.
I must add it to my long to do list and make a model and use some white smoke in a carton box wind tunnel to see the airflow. I was thinking about smoke from a model train smoke generator. It's a little pill or some fluid heated up creating fat white smoke.

Ray

---------------------
You dont know how little you know.
till you know enought to know that you still know nothing
[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by kitno455 on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 09:50:19 AM MST

go to heating and cooling section of home improvement store, or if they dont have it, an hvac shop.

they have smoke pens, work pretty well, not as thick as model train stuff though.

allan

[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by ghurd on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 07:19:15 AM MST

At least the neighbors can't complain about it.
They won't even know what it is!
G-



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by electrondady1 on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 07:45:52 AM MST

coming up with a windmill design that is visualy beautiful as well as functional will be the best contribution any of us could make. a few percentage points on the efficientcy scale won't help much if at some point joe average and his wife are out shopping for something to stick on there lawn.  how about a self starting tibetan prayer wheel, we need all the help we can get!



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by windstuffnow on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 10:38:23 AM MST

Hi Mike,
   Great creative thinking there! What is the diameter of the little unit?  I was tossing some numbers around for it and it actually works and shows some fairly decient numbers.  Typically the cylinders have a fairly high Cd, somewhere very close to 1 in free air until you get the speed up.  Once the speed comes up the RN comes up considerably and reduces the Cd to around .47 as the speed increases you can actually Reduce Cd to .08 in a RN of around 400,000.   The trick is to get the speed to a point where it creates a turbulant boundary layer behind the cylinder.  The venturi effect should help considerably with that and reduce the RN necessary to achieve the same result.  In free air the Boundary layer will experience early separation creating high drag, separating from the cylinder at aroun 83 degrees from the front.  The low pressure created behind the unit will help hold the flow farther around thus creating a smaller high turbulant area thus reducing the Cd considerably.

Have you done any torque tests on it yet?  I'll bet it has a very low start up torque but probably has a good steady torque at speed.  I'll have to slab one together to play with sometime this summer!  Great thinking!

I recieved some parts for my single wing VAWT yesterday but things have been so busy here lately I haven't had a chance to modify them and get them in place.  I'm hoping I have some time to finish this up by this weekend.  With the new parts I'm only going to be able to move the wing angle up to 45 degrees and I'm not sure that will be enough.   It will be fine for low winds/ extreemly high torque but it will reduce my original TSR from 2 down to around 1.7.  

Ain't this stuff just way to much fun?!!!

Windstuff Ed

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by rotornuts on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 06:00:35 PM MST

Hi Ed,

I have no info on performance. I need to get a wind meter and a small alt to start testing some of these small models. I agree with your assesment on getting the speed up there which is why I made this model with a high aspect ratio. It's only 6.25" diameter by 13.5 high so it's usless for gathering perfomance info.

Like you always say so much fun so little time(and these days money)

Btw, I've seen CL figures of 1.6 for some rotating cylinders. Were talking some high reynolds though.

See below for a small modification

Mike

[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by electrondady1 on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 06:55:20 PM MST

i don't know what "Cd "  stands for or "rn " for that mater.

[ Parent ]


Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by RP on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 07:07:23 PM MST

Cd Coefficient of drag,  RN short for Reynolds Number

[ Parent ]


Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by finnsawyer on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 10:39:15 AM MST

I think the flaps will have an effect on the operation of the device.  When a fluid flow encounters a cylinder, it will tend to double in speed as if goes around the cylinder.  In your diagram a pressure will develop against both the top flap and the bottom flap due to the air flow around the structure.  As the structure turns, both the top and bottom flaps will have a force in the direction of rotation (clockwise as shown).  With increasing speed the maximum force will tend to shift toward the lower flap.  It appears that in principle this could rotate with the speed of the flaps up to twice the incident wind speed.  An obvious thing to check is this maximum speed for a well balanced and designed example.
GeoM


Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by rotornuts on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 06:10:00 PM MST

Agreed GeoM, The flaps are needed but I wonder how bad or for how long.

Anyway I made a small modification today. Below is a picture. It'd a trip wire just inside the circumference on the lead edge. Should help with startup and and cruise performance. It acts similar to vortex generators so the boundry layer should stay attached longer over a greater percentage of the rotation. Look for thr little white strip on the lead edge.



So far it seems to be working as planned. Startup is smoother and I'm seeing better and smoother rotation at lower windspeeds(visual).

Still having fun and learning lots.

Mike

[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by XRay on Thu Jun 09, 2005 at 03:16:18 AM MST

Rotornuts, can you explain the relationship between the cylinder diameter and the gap between the cylinders?

This strip looks a bit big, I thing a tiny sharp strip will do the job. It will become a negative drag component when tsr>1 I think?

I must be creasy not have seen the lift part of this funny rotor.
While the cylinders are rotating on their common axis they create lift, see this nice online simulation tool from nasa:
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/foil2.html
Choose input -> Shape/Angle
Choose Shape-> Cylinder
And adjust Spin rpm, Radius, Span.

Greetings,
Ray
---------------------
You dont know how little you know.
till you know enought to know that you still know nothing
[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by rotornuts on Thu Jun 09, 2005 at 06:55:25 AM MST

Morning Ray,

I've used the Nasa sim. before. It's very helpfull at first. Now you have to try and visualize what irregularities such as the two cylinders and intermitent pressure drops and spikes might do to the flow. The size of the strips reflects the size of the model. The lower the Reynolds number the larger the features need to be. It's kinda why you can get away with crude models like the ones I've been doing. The airflow at these sizes is responsive but forgiving. I'm very curious have this will scale. I didn't use any hard theories on gap to diameter ratios I just made the spacing half the cylinder diameter. Too much space and the flow off the upwind cylinder may not adhear to the downwind cylinder with enough energy, too little space an you needlessly restrict air flow. I don't know yet how to properly calculate spaces to manipulate the airflow the way I want but I'm looking for info. I almost forgot, the stall strips(Trip wire) are just within the circumference of the unit so as the rpm increases they fall out of use, almost. I may want to move them inboard a touch more, we'll see.

Mike

[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by hvirtane on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 11:31:53 PM MST

Really nice.

I think that this experiment
is really interesting.

I'm wondering, if it
really performs better than
a well shaped Savonius.

---

I wanted to point out here
the same thing, which I've
posted on this site
already earlier.

Most of the people
have got a wrong opinion
about the efficiency
of the savonius rotor.

According to American
research it is actually
quite good.

Unfortunately
the efficiency is put
wrong in most text books
about wind energy.

See below.

-----

From:

Wind Energy Systems
by Dr. Gary L. Johnson November 20, 2001  
http://www.eece.ksu.edu/~gjohnson/    

----

 Agreement on the efficiency
of the Savonius turbine apparently
has finally been reached a
half century after its development.
Savonius claimed an efficiency
of 31 per cent in the wind
tunnel and 37 per cent
in free air.
However, he commented:
[10] "The calculations of Professor
Betz gave 20 % as the highest
theoretical maximum
for vertical airwheels, which under the
best of circumstances could
not produce more
than 10 % in practical output."
The theoretical
and experimental results failed
to agree. Unfortunately,
Savonius did not specify the shape
and size of his turbine well
enough for others
to try to duplicate his results.

A small unit of approximately
2 m high by 1 m diameter
was built and tested at Kansas
State University during the period
1932-1938[6]. This unit was
destroyed by a high wind, but
efficiencies of 35 to 40 %
were claimed by the researchers.
Wind tunnel tests were performed
by Sandia on 1.5 m high by 1 m
diameter Savonius turbines,
with a maximum efficiency
measured of 25 % for
semicircular blades[1].

Different blade shapes
which were tested at the
University of Illinois showed
a maximum efficiency of
about 35 %[5].
More Savonius turbines
were tested at Kansas State
University, with efficiencies
reported of about 25 %[13, 4].
It thus appears that the Savonius,
if properly designed,
has an efficiency nearly as good as the
horizontal axis propeller turbine
or the Darrieus turbine.
The Savonius turbine therefore
holds promise in applications
where low to medium technology
is required or where the high
starting torque is important.

A chart of efficiency of five
different turbine types
is shown in Fig. 8. The efficiency or
power coefficient varies with
the ratio of blade tip speed
to wind speed, with the peak value
being the number quoted for
a comparison of turbines.
This will be discussed in more detail
in Chapter 4. It may be noticed
that the peak efficiencies
of the two bladed propeller, the
Darrieus, and the Savonius
are all above 30 %, while
the American Multiblade and the Dutch
windmills peak at about 15 %.
These efficiencies indicate
that the American Multiblade is
not competitive for
generating electricity,
even though it is almost
ideally suited and very
competitive for pumping water.

The efficiency curves for
the Savonius and
the American Multiblade have
been known for
a long time[6, 10].
Unfortunately, the labels
on the two curves
were accidentally interchanged
in some key publication
in recent years, with the result
that many authors have used an
erroneous set of curves
in their writing. This historical
accident will probably take years to
correct.

------
------

- Hannu



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by rotornuts on Thu Jun 09, 2005 at 06:34:57 AM MST

I've noticed even these days I'll read a paper that was published on a subject pertaining to turbine modifications to improve performance and realize the individuals involved didn't really understand the the working conditions of the turbine or they will have operated off previous assumtions. This of course leads to a distorted picture of reality and inaccurate results. Alone it wouldn't really matter but I'll then see the same information repeated again and again as though it is gospel by folks who rather report on others work rather than do thier own and voila, a myth is born.

If I told someone, ok, mount two cylinders on a rotating disk with a small flap to distort airflow and you'll have something that spins not bad, I'd get funny looks. I tend to forget the common you can't do that stuff and forge on thinking, well it may not work when you do that but what about? Of course I'm known for not knowing when to give up.  

[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by electrondady1 on Thu Jun 09, 2005 at 09:47:04 AM MST

you've added a small dia. tube or wire to the cylinders just ahead of the flat flap thingie? this creates a vortex in the air which moves over the surface of the flap as it rotates? this is an improvement over a smooth surface displacing the air as it rotates? i don't understand enough about fluid dynamics to appreciate what your doing. i would have thought a fast smooth air flow over the exterior surface would increase speed/ reduce presure , and increase lift. turbulent air on the inside of the "wing" creates pressure. have i got that wrong?

[ Parent ]


Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by kitno455 on Thu Jun 09, 2005 at 11:16:06 AM MST

if i recall from my fluid dyn classes:

on highly curved leading surfaces or high AoA, the air is so highly deflected that it cannot follow the shape around the crest of the airfoil. this leads to stalling as a huge eddy forms directly over the lifting surface. on less curved surfaces, thick boundary layer is a problem. the extra drag caused by long bodies building up boundary layers can be significant, especially since aircraft control surfaces are trailing edge of airfoil.

if you 'screw up' the airflow you add small eddies into the boundary layer.

for the first problem, turbulent boundary makes it more likely that some component of the air motion is already headed around the object. prevents separation.

for the second problem, turbulent boundary has no net direction in relation to outer layers of air, so less force is transfered, hence less drag.

in this case, probably more of the first problem than the second? or did i miss something :)

allan


[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by rotornuts on Thu Jun 09, 2005 at 12:46:51 PM MST

Ok, heres how I'm looking at it. I did a couple illustrations with crude streamlines added to show the effect I'm hoping for.

As I understand it it's kind of an energy thing. As the air flows over or around a surface it loses energy and it's ability to remain attached to the surface. A trip wire/slot/slat or vortex generator creates vorticies or eddies which are energetic and will share some of thier energy with the airflow allowing it to stay attached longer thereby increasing lift and reducing drag and stall. Trip wires are probably the worst of the above devices for delaying separation(higher drag penalty) but they are the easiest to make.

So you may ask yourself if there is a drag penalty to these devices how can there be a benefit? Because the increased lift and reduction in drag is greater than the drag induced by the device.

The first illustration shows the flow without the trip wire with the unit in the stall position. The unit will not start to rotate untill the lift on the lead edge is greater then the drag on the trailing edge but as the unit starts to move clockwise the drag initially becomes greater on the trailing edge and defeates the lift on the lead edge so the unit slips back again. at 3-4 MPH the unit weathervanes and rocks back and forth untill the wind speed increases to about 5-6 Mph at which point the lift on the lead edge is strong enough to defeat the drag on the trailing edge in the stall position and voila, off she goes spinning nicely. The action I just described told me I wasn't generating enough lift on the lead edge and it was likely due to seperation on the lead egde(see first diagram blue areas) because that's what cylinders do at low airspeeds so the fix was a device to impart some energy into the airflow hence the tripwire.

It's questionable what the overall benefit is but at startup it helps alot.

Without trip wire



With trip wire. Note the areas in blue and how the air follows the curvature of the cylinder


Mike

[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by bob golding on Thu Jun 09, 2005 at 03:41:53 PM MST

hi mike,
fasinating stuff cant wait to build one when i get back home. something about this says tesla turbine. i think  they work on laminar flow over a highly polished surface. dont know how practical it would be to keep the surface  highly polished,or how important it would be. also think it might be worth sacrificing the flaps and  maybe having  something like a small conventunal vawt on top  to start it, or a small motor to spool it, up just  brainstorming, this stuff is so much fun.

bob golding

[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#34)
by XRay on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 12:44:25 AM MST

Good morning to you Mike,
Creating eddies introduces drag (no free ride). Because this drag part in one side of the cylinder (one trip wire) the drag component is unbalanced, creating more startup torque.
Maybe you can lose those flaps!

Including a Lenz separates the cylinders making the rotor diameter bigger increasing torque:



Ray

---------------------
You dont know how little you know.
till you know enought to know that you still know nothing
[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by Norm on Thu Jun 09, 2005 at 06:19:12 PM MST

    Oh...Wow! what a neat use for a bunch of
2 liter plastic pop bottles! The flaps could be
the labels.
    2 pop bottles, bottom ends hot glued together
makes a nice long cylinder....
    (trivia)...probably a little known fact that
the bottom ends mesh together!
    I'll just have to try it tomorrow!
    Just goofin' around too...but Hey...if it
works..   coffee cans....pop bottles...maple seeds....whatever huh ??
              Havin' fun in NE Ohio..tho'
           hot!       ( :>) Norm.
Was doing it like below ..but maybe your way will work better and simpler.    




( :>) Norm



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#31)
by wooferhound on Thu Jun 09, 2005 at 10:05:17 PM MST

Looks a lot like mine



I think yours would work better cause the ends are cupped.
W o o f -={(

[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#58)
by Norm on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 06:42:57 PM MST

  They look a lot like yours because thats were
I got the idea...thanks woof...and the cupped
ends do seem to make it work better.
  This little toy is getting lost amongst all
this tech stuff about RN, vortex, venturis, and
 stuff!
               Fun!
                ( :>) Norm.
( :>) Norm
[ Parent ]


Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#27)
by 41south on Thu Jun 09, 2005 at 06:26:33 PM MST

I have some left over 90mm (3.5") stormwater downpipe in the garage, I see a weekend project coming up :-)

Is there any particular ratio of height to diameter used here?
Cheers - Colin
3rd Law of Computing: Anything that can go wr___ Segmentation fault -- Core dumped


Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#28)
by 41south on Thu Jun 09, 2005 at 06:41:49 PM MST

Read and ye shall find.....

Answered my own question...."It's only 6.25" diameter by 13.5 high"

So I guess what I really need is the ratio of the cylinder sizes to the gap between them. Is the initial drawing to scale, if so I can work it all out from there?

Cheers - Colin
3rd Law of Computing: Anything that can go wr___ Segmentation fault -- Core dumped
[ Parent ]


Re: 2 cylinder VAWT meets Lenz (3.00 / 0) (#29)
by commanda on Thu Jun 09, 2005 at 09:13:48 PM MST

Somebody tell me if I'm crazy or not.
What if you increased the number of cylinders to 3, and put the centre triangular section from the Lenz turbine in the middle?

Amanda



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT meets Lenz (3.00 / 0) (#30)
by PHinker on Thu Jun 09, 2005 at 09:43:03 PM MST

Read my mind





[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT meets Lenz (3.00 / 0) (#32)
by jimjjnn on Thu Jun 09, 2005 at 10:07:01 PM MST

I really like the way you guys think. You are really coming up with good ideas . I think Vawts can be a useful machine in cities that won't allow the HAWTS. I only wish I were younger and had the space and income for these experiments to do these great things that you Ladies and Gentlemen are doing.

Denver,CO
[ Parent ]


Re: 2 cylinder VAWT meets Lenz (3.00 / 0) (#33)
by rotornuts on Thu Jun 09, 2005 at 11:28:37 PM MST

I did these up the day I made the model.

streamlined version



Two blade large cord



Three blade large cord



I think the evolutionary process has begun. I'm just trying to remember deadly simplicity was one of my motivations. I tried the two cylinder without the flaps and it only work in high winds so the flaps stay for sure so I guess whether it's two or three some streamlining is in order.

I will say though that at first my flaps were an inch and a half longer and it worked better after I cut them down so a wide(large)cord may not be the answer. I guess we'll see. At the moment 'I'm thinking the three blader with a narrow cord.

Mike


[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT meets Lenz (3.00 / 0) (#35)
by XRay on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 12:56:51 AM MST

O jee, me like the streamlined version.
The others look like my old paper models, only the cannels are a bit narrow. Remember I ended up making a Ropatec rotor.
He they look like negative scoop-rotors to, maybe thats positive.

Greetings,
Ray

---------------------
You dont know how little you know.
till you know enought to know that you still know nothing
[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT meets Lenz (3.00 / 0) (#36)
by Kwazai on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 06:45:28 AM MST

how bout one that could be cut out of a drum with a tube or trapezoid in the center (darieus?savonius????) the outer edge of the drum is already a foil of sorts. The problem with the darrieus ,they way I understand it, is self starting and they have added a savonius to get it started. from a practical standpoint- I'm thinking two concentric circles- the outer one with the foils cut in it, the inner one with an offset set of foils-darrieus outside, savonius inside???? forgive my rambling...

[ Parent ]


Re: 2 cylinder VAWT meets Lenz (3.00 / 0) (#42)
by XRay on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 08:13:47 AM MST

I think if you want to use a drum effectively just make a Savonius its also the most easiest windmill to make.
Myself was thinking about a combination Darrieus Savonius but then the Savonius placed on one site of the roof ridge electrically kick starting the Darrieus placed on the other side of the ridge.

Greetings,
Ray

---------------------
You dont know how little you know.
till you know enought to know that you still know nothing
[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT meets Lenz (3.00 / 0) (#40)
by windstuffnow on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 07:59:10 AM MST

  The first diagram above looks better, I think the more you close off the air flow between the blades the more the pressure will increase as wind speed increases turning the turbine into a solid round cylinder.  This could defeat the power production.  I might be overlooking something but that's the way I see them.

  For a drag machine the 1/2 cylinder produces the highest downwind Cd of around 2.3, unfortunately the upwind side sees a Cd of around 1 so just under half of the power gained is lost to drag on the upwind side. A drag machine extracts its highest power at around a TSR of .33, although, it will continue to produce power up to a TSR of around .7-.8 and after it reaches a TSR of 1 there is no longer any power extraction.  Once you exceed the TSR of 1 your dependant on extracting power primarily from the upwind side as lift although the downwind side will add to that somewhat. The faster its spins the better.  There is alot of energy that can be extracted in the upwind side,  for instance if the machine is in a 15mph wind and the rotor is traveling at a TSR of 1 the upwind blade sees 30mph winds, the downwind see's nothing and is just along for the ride.  The big trick is to get the machine running above 1 and preferably 2 or higher where you can start collecting from both sides as well as front and back.  That's the big advantage the HAWT's have over the VAWT's.  The original idea of the Lenz turbine was to cancel the upwind side drag by using lift allowing the full extraction of the downwind side.  Once I realized there was more power on the upwind side I headed in that direction but only was able to get it to a TSR of around 1.7 so the downwind side still has problems adding much to the extraction.  I wasn't completely satisfied with the results although what I ended up with was a reasonably efficient VAWT with good start up torque.  It still has to be proven in winds above 12mph which is the limit to my home brewed wind tunnel.  

  I think mike is on to something and hopefully will surpass the results of my turbine... I agree with mikes statement of keeping it dangerously simple also...

  Great work mike!  I'm following your project with great expectations.   If I wasn't so busy right now I'd be building one to test myself!

Hav eFun
Windstuff Ed

 
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT meets Lenz (3.00 / 0) (#44)
by rotornuts on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 08:34:09 AM MST

Morning Ed. I believe your feelings about the solidity of the center are correct. Of the above three images I think only the top one is practical. The lower two were done before I constructed the first model and I have since learned that a shorter flap/cord worked better. I'm considerind what may happen if I added a third cylinder to the top drawing but I'm also afraid it may confuse the airflow through the center. The only thing that is directing the air the right way is the interaction between the two cylinders and I can visualize but not say for sure what will happen with three.

I would also agree but can't say definitively that the center should be left open and if I could with such a small fragile model I'd eliminate the rod through the center as well.

I'm off to try a three cylinder model

Mike

[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT meets Lenz (3.00 / 0) (#45)
by kitno455 on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 08:38:00 AM MST

ok, this is maybe a crazy idea, but what if the 'lenz' shape in the middle was shaped more flat, and its angle was controlled by a tail, instead of it rotating. then it may be possible to use more cylinders or airfoils, and not have them disturb each other as much?

allan

[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT meets Lenz (3.00 / 0) (#46)
by monte350c on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 08:57:14 AM MST

Hi All,

Would it be a stretch to compare the 2 cylinder model to Ed's 700 rpm coffee can?

It looks like there is something interesting going on when the two cylinders or wing shapes are fairly close to each other. Ed mentioned in a post on the Lenz turbine a while back that the effect disappeared when he up-sized the unit and the two wings became further apart.

Sandia Labs did an extensive set of tests on 2 and 3 bucket Savonius machines, that included varying the center gap. There are locked rotor torque measurements taken at various angles of rotation, in numerous configurations.

http://infoserve.library.sandia.gov/sand_doc/1976/760131.pdf

There's an interesting read about a 5 meter Darrieus unit:

http://infoserve.library.sandia.gov/sand_doc/1980/800179.pdf

and some info on torque ripple in VAWT's:

http://infoserve.library.sandia.gov/sand_doc/1978/780577.pdf

Obviously not exactly pertinent to this new design but some of the ideas might work when put together. Like torque output at various points in rotation. Perhaps the venturi effect could be applied where needed in the rotation, ie with some stationary elements that end up at 3 and 9 o'clock and yaw to remain in those places with varying wind direction. As Ed pointed out, things are pretty good in VAWT's at the front and back, but the upgoing blade can use some help. I did a bunch of playing around with lift type VAWT's and the TSR seems to be directly related to solidity and the ability to self-start. Ie. low solidity units will run happily at TSR's of 4 or better, but don't like to self-start. High solidity units (let's say .3 or better) like to start but don't run fast.

The rest of the collection on VAWT technology is here:

http://www.sandia.gov/wind/topical.htm#VAWTARCHIVE

and makes for some interesting reading at least.

Ted.

[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT meets Lenz (3.00 / 0) (#47)
by rotornuts on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 09:24:42 AM MST

Morning Ted. I'll read the links in a minute. this thing definitely has shades of the coffe can in it. I'm trying three cylinders with a low solidity but I'm thinking two will be the ticket. I think of solidity like stability in an aircraft. Aircraft that have a reduced wing size and a planform that compimizes stability have better manuverability and speed performance than the same aircraft with a wing that is shaped to provide stability. This kinda flies goes against the way I was thinking in the recent past so I'm reassessing my thoughts on it. I always try to remember that each application has it's own issues so a uniform theory doesn't apply but it's hard to not let opinion from one project influence another. In the transition from Hawt's to Vawt's I've had to dismiss alot of what I thought I knew because of the unique conditions of a Vawt.

I am very curious now to see what sandia has to say so I'm off to do some reading.

Thanks for the links.

Mike

[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT meets Lenz (3.00 / 0) (#48)
by rotornuts on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 09:56:08 AM MST

Well, It's seems that sandia was disapointed enough in the three bucket configuration they didn't even publish the results. They say that other than start torque the two bucket is superior. I think the trip wires on my model may compensate for that. Ok then  is it going to be two or three? two, three, two, three, maybe I should draw straws. Allright I'll do thre three just to say I did but, again, I think it's going to be back to two in a low solidity.

Mike

[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT meets Lenz (3.00 / 0) (#50)
by electrondady1 on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 10:26:54 AM MST

roto, i know your doing pure research but something to bear in mind as you go on, the profiles your  coming up with are very compatible with extrusion tech. extrusion dies are relatively inexpensive. imagine any old plastic junk going in one end and fully formed vanes coming out the other. just slice it at whatever lengh you want. good luck!

[ Parent ]


Re: 2 cylinder VAWT meets Lenz (3.00 / 0) (#51)
by monte350c on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 10:33:05 AM MST

Yes, and if the start becomes problematic, as the article suggests you can just have two units stacked one on top of the other, the top rotated 90 degrees with respect to the bottom unit. The charts on the Savonius then show positive torque all the way around, and so should self-start no problem.

It's a pity they didn't continue down that road a bit - it looks like the idea behind all those tests was to examine the possibilities of using a Savonius to start a Darrieus.

You're picking up where they left off all those years ago. That report was from 1976!

Sure would be nice to have a wind tunnel to play with...

Ted.

[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT meets Lenz (3.00 / 0) (#53)
by rotornuts on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 10:44:14 AM MST

Hello again guys.

Electron daddy, this thing is a cinch to build for sure and ted, I regret to inform that I increased the diameter to 7" added an third cylinder and used the same flaps and to my dismay it's defying expectation by working very well so far. I haven't seen high winds yet but it seems to be beating the two cylinder(again from a visual perspective bearing in mind that more points on something that rotates will make it look like it's going faster, these days I mark a point on the rim to refrence rotation speed.

Clearly something interesting is happening in the center so I think I should leave it alone and avoid any flow manipulating thingies.]

Slightly confounded, Mike

[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT meets Lenz (3.00 / 0) (#54)
by monte350c on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 11:32:19 AM MST

Wow - don't be sorry! Sounds like you're on to something.

There's lots of approaches to rpm counting - I did a simple one by hot glueing some magnets to the bottom disk of my vawt models and putting one coil about 120 turns of 22 guage wire nearby. Attach the output wires to my Fluke meter on the hertz setting and voila, a rough and ready tach.

Good luck and this keeps getting more interesting!

Ted.

[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT meets Lenz (3.00 / 0) (#56)
by windstuffnow on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 02:49:40 PM MST

  Mike, I found the same thing when I went to the 3 wing design, it gained speed as well as torque.  Also, it started much easier.   I think you'll find that your start up torque will go up significantly if you open a slot to the inside of the tubes on the backside of each wing, this also helps create the turbulant energy that will keep the air stuck to the wing reducing drag.

  Man, your having way to much fun... wish I was there!  You've got my blood boiling, I want to go out and play with some stuff.  Unfortunately I can't gotta keep my nose to the grindstone at least for a few more days...  Then I can play a little.

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT meets Lenz (3.00 / 0) (#49)
by electrondady1 on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 10:14:49 AM MST

thanks very much for those links

[ Parent ]


Re: 2 cylinder VAWT meets Lenz (3.00 / 0) (#52)
by electrondady1 on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 10:37:45 AM MST

oops! the thanks was for monte 350 for the sandia links.

[ Parent ]


Re: 2 cylinder VAWT meets Lenz (3.00 / 0) (#61)
by Kwazai on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 07:04:14 AM MST

ditto...



[ Parent ]


Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#37)
by electrondady1 on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 07:00:41 AM MST

about twenty years ago there was a fad around here. every retired guy had a bunch of bleach containers cut up and spining on there front yard some guys had dozens of them. thats what got me thinking about wind power in the first place.how about a version of this design on every lanp post . how about one on every fence post in a farmers field. these little vawts work and are almost indestructable. the problem for me is to scale down a pmg enough to be compatible with the torque the mills generate.carry on roto your doing good work!



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#38)
by XRay on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 07:52:38 AM MST

Hey electrondady1,
Cool idea, placing one on every fence post in a farmers fields.
Use the barbwire to conduct the current. I wonder what happens when lightning strikes on one of the fence post. :-o

Ray

---------------------
You dont know how little you know.
till you know enought to know that you still know nothing
[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#39)
by electrondady1 on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 07:58:34 AM MST

 i beleave that's when the magic smoke escapes!!

[ Parent ]


Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#41)
by wildbill hickup on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 08:05:13 AM MST

I'm going to try a 3 blader with a couple of ideas of my own. I'll let you know how it turns out. Question to any of the folks that calculate things I don't even begin to understand. Based on roto's very first drawing. With 8" total dia., if I use 3" dia tubes, 2 feet long,and the wings are 3" wide and 2' long of course, can anyone come up with a swept area figure or would that be hard to apply in this case. I'm trying to come up with some rough ideas on power output(at say a 10MPH wind) it'd great to get 50-100 watts to start. My plan is to mount it on a ametec PM motor and see what happens.

Thanks
Wildbill



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#43)
by kitno455 on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 08:23:30 AM MST

bill- swept area of a vawt is how big it looks from the front if it was a solid cylinder- in your case, its 2 feet tall and the disks are 8 inches across. that looks like a rectangle 2 x .67 feet, or 1.33 square feet.

allan

[ Parent ]



Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#55)
by wildbill hickup on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 02:20:28 PM MST

Ok now where did I put that wind/watt formula.....I know it's here somewhere.....maybe in that pile...no that one....it's bound to be in there somewhere :-> HELP!!!!!

[ Parent ]


Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#57)
by windstuffnow on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 02:55:07 PM MST

  Mike, I think you need to start a new thread on this diary, its getting hard to follow... Lots of interest!!!

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed


Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#59)
by electrondady1 on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 08:48:15 PM MST

well if you could post the graphic for the three pillar unit be for you change anything.....

[ Parent ]


Re: 2 cylinder VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#60)
by nothing to lose on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 09:38:29 PM MST

Sorry I did not have time to read all of this, very interested in it though.
I leave soon for my summer trips, so just last minute surfing stuff, see everyone later this year on here.

Anyway, on this funny little thing in the first picture. I like it.
I remember when I was a kid (many years ago) I had an odd ball kite. It had sort of a body and wings as I recall. The wings were similar to what is on that post in the first picture, best as I remember. So I would think your on the right track with the lift Idea here. That kit was great. When the wind blew past the wings they spun, when they spun they created lift, faster the wind the faster they spun the more lift they made.
Why or how it worked I have no idea really, but that thing would fly better than any normal kite.
 As experements (playing) way back then, I do recall toy glider planes. My kite plane tied to the end of a string would fly in the wind with the spinning wings, but a glidder plane would fall to the ground in the same winds with it's stationary wings.
The glider plane would glide if thrown though, my kite plane I don't think did or not very well.

Anyway, I hope this works well, I know that old toy did, and those wings would really get to spinning too. Very fast in a good kite flying wind!

Too bad we can't buy decent stuff like that now adays :(
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.



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