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New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy


By ghurd, Section Wind
Posted on Mon Jul 4th, 2005 at 03:44:46 AM MST
No rewiring or fancy tools

This project was started long ago and is finally finished.

The idea was to overcome some of the common problems when trying a small, cheap, and easy first windmill.  And have a good chance of having it actually work!

Box fans seemed like a good place to start. My neighbor threw this one away.
The main problems for box fans are magnetic cogging and high coil resistance.

My "big new idea" is using only 4 magnets for the 6 coils.  This almost totally eliminated the magnetic cogging common to 6 magnet armatures.

This also allows the coils to be seperated into 3 series pairs, and that reduces the coil resistance.

Tools required are very basic.  I only used a pencil, hack saw, file, small vice, wire cutters, pliars, screw driver, razor blade, 1 hour epoxy, soldering iron and solder, hot glue gun and hot glue. I do not believe that hot glue is the best choice to insulate and hold wires in place, but I did not think this would work as well as it does.

This motor is from a 20" box fan. The fan blade will surely turn it, but it will be fall before I can test it in the wind. Too many trees here.
The motor has bushings instead of bearings, and therefore will wear out sooner.
If there is a copper pin through the laminations, it should be removed.
This motor did not have one.
The name plate sticker reads 120V AC, 60HZ, 2.1A.

The magnets were placed on the end of the armature, marked a line with a pencil, cut with a hack saw, cleaned up with a file, then epoxied on the magnets N/S/N/S.

The stator had 4 wires in parallel wound from coil to coil in series.
These wires were cut allowing the wires from deep in the coils to be long.
The other end was carefully unwound from the outside of the coils so they were long enough to work with.

The insulation on all the ends was stripped about 1/8".
The meter set to ohms found ends of the same wire, so they could be reconnected properly.
Take care when soldering, so no solder drips onto the coils.
The soldering was time consuming and tiring. Don't expect to do it in an hour.

The sketch shows how I reconnected the wires of opposite coils. 1A to 1B. 2A to 2B. 3A to 3B.  The outputs are AC, and need rectified to DC for battery charging.
That is covered in depth elsewhere on this board.

The wires were insulated and held in place with hot glue. Like I said, probably not a good idea.

If one pair of coils has a very low output, one coils ends should be switched.
Meaning the wire going to the other coil now becomes the output, and the former output now goes to the other coil.

Each reconnected coil coil is 9 ohms, each pair in series is 18 ohms.

Each coil in this conversion makes 0.45 amps into a 12V battery at 650 RPMs, 1.2 amps at 800 RPMs, and 0.75A at 1100 RPMs.
With all 3 coils operating at 1100 RPMs, that is 2.25 amps for about 30 watts output.

One pair of coils was faulty. This has reduced the total output, but has nothing to do with the construction. (3A and 3B are the faulty coils) Maybe that is why it was in the garbage, but it probably happened from so much handling for so long.

These magnets are most probably over powered for this project. 3/4 x 3/4 x 5/16" N45 grade neos. They just happened to be here and fit nicely, so I used them.

The whole thing.



Nothing to exact.



Not very pretty.



The wiring connections for one pair of coils.
The top shows how it looks aon the laminations.
The bottom shows how it would look if they were all seperated.



I hope this helps someone looking for something small for a first try.

Any and all comments welcome.

Thanks to everyone who very patiently helped me with this unusual conversion!
G-

New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy | 53 comments (53 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by ghurd on Sun Jul 3rd, 2005 at 10:11:21 PM MST
(User Info)

Missed the coil layout.



G-



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by ZooT on Sun Jul 3rd, 2005 at 10:41:12 PM MST
(User Info)

New user here*grin*

I just did one of those cheapo "lakewood" box fans too, but I rewound the laminates using 150 turns of #22 AWG wired in series and used 6-1"x1/8" Neos.....

On a breezy morning I couldn't get it to spin up by itself(cogs too much), but after giving it a spin by hand my multimeter showed it was producing 31.4 volts AC using the 20" fan blade.

Today I added a bridge rectifier (25 amps-50 volts) and spinning it by hand I can get a 12 volt bulb to light.

I really don't know what I'm doing yet so I might be heading off in the wrong direction, but right now I'm looking at the Zubwoofer stuff hoping I can build a rotor that will spin up by itself....
I'd really like to use this to keep a few 12 volt trolling motor batteries topped off at my deer hunting camp.

[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by ghurd on Sun Jul 3rd, 2005 at 11:30:45 PM MST
(User Info)

Welcome aboard!

This was about the same fan, a Holmes brand.

Reducing the cogging was the 'New Idea'. That is the main problem with these.
With 4 magnets the cogging is almost totally gone.

And it sure was easier than a re-wind!

The fan blade from this motor is now turning a tiny little induction conversion.
This one turns just as easy, and the other one even has bearings!
(check my photo files for Ugly20 or WideOpenSpaces)

I believe a 'Teflon' carrying oil (like 'Slick-50', 'Greased Lightning' or 'T-Plus') will help the bushings spin much more free and last longer.
Just personal experience, but T-Plus is in all my cars because it saves far more than it costs in gas alone, and they run cooler.
No connection with any of them and me.

Keep an eye out for another donor fan to try this.

G-

[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Norm (peppysue@suite224.net) on Mon Jul 4th, 2005 at 12:46:55 PM MST
(User Info)

On a breezy morning I couldn't get it to spin up by itself(cogs too much), but after giving it a spin by hand my multimeter showed it was producing 31.4 volts AC using the 20" fan blade.

Today I added a bridge rectifier (25 amps-50 volts) and spinning it by hand I can get a 12 volt bulb to light.


  You don't really know what the rpm is ...do you?
Here is a quick simple way.....


  count the number of threads per inch ...grab the nut and see how far it travels in 10 seconds.
...if you're really a new guy you might have missed this.....

http://www2.suite224.net/~peppysue/

a three blade 3ft. diameter rotor with a wide root
might spin this thing okay....
                   ( :>) Norm.
( :>) Norm
[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by ghurd on Mon Jul 4th, 2005 at 01:42:12 AM MST
(User Info)

The output specs have a typo or 2.
Total output with the 2 working pairs of coils is 1.5 amps.
G-



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by hiker (hiker.wild[at]yahoo[dot]com) on Mon Jul 4th, 2005 at 03:11:33 AM MST
(User Info)

this little fan motor had the coils in the center--so i placed the mags on the inside case[14 hd mags]..this way you don"t have to worry about the mags flyin off..
motor had 14 coils--i rewired with #14 wire--i belive 1 had room for about 10 turns..
it puts out about 10 amps--somthing like 35 volts out..lights up two 50watt lights-- made it for my little 1916 engine[it powers the buzz box]makes the spark for the spark plug--any way it worked out great for that--no need to carry around a big auto battery anymore just to power the buzz box........later.
 


WILD IN ALASKA
[ Parent ]


Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by hiker (hiker.wild[at]yahoo[dot]com) on Mon Jul 4th, 2005 at 03:14:19 AM MST
(User Info)

thats a 2hp briggs and strat in the above picture--used it for testing the alt..
WILD IN ALASKA
[ Parent ]


Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by hiker (hiker.wild[at]yahoo[dot]com) on Mon Jul 4th, 2005 at 03:26:20 AM MST
(User Info)

here it is --mounted on the 1916 motor -with a temporary mount--its powering the buzz box and one 50watt light--bad picture-i had the light bulb right in the sunlight..
  well i hope i didnt steal your post--just thought i might show you how much power you can get from those old fan motors...i have a bigger fan motor layin around that has 33 coils--single phase--should be a fun conversion...


WILD IN ALASKA
[ Parent ]


Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by ghurd on Mon Jul 4th, 2005 at 08:31:01 AM MST
(User Info)

Is that one of your ceiling fan motors?
G-


[ Parent ]


Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Norm (peppysue@suite224.net) on Mon Jul 4th, 2005 at 09:36:48 AM MST
(User Info)

 G,
  Nice goin', glad to see you're finally using
pics ...Just about the time you started using
pics...my digital went south, Oh...Well good excuse to get a new one.
  I could just use ceramic magnets for a
project like this?
  I know what might happen to a couple of
 old 20 inch box fans when summer is over!
                  ( :>) Norm.
                   
( :>) Norm


Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by ghurd on Mon Jul 4th, 2005 at 09:46:29 PM MST
(User Info)

Norm,
Maybe thick ceramics? I don't know.
These neos are serious magnets for what I expected.
I was kind of surprised at how low the VAC open was,
at 800RPMs it was 30VAC, 650RPM was 20VAC.
I expected more volts with all those turns.

It may have more potential in a 3-phase style wiring,
but with only 2 working, it will have to wait for the
next one.

Star / Wye or Delta? Not sure.
Had a feeling Delta would be better.

This is just a little too different for me to guess.

G-

[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by ghurd on Tue Jul 5th, 2005 at 08:31:11 AM MST
(User Info)

With what Hiker is getting from hard drive magnets, maybe try a fan with some of those? 2 or 3 thick I bet will work, if you can find that many.
G-

[ Parent ]


Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by ZooT on Mon Jul 4th, 2005 at 10:00:28 AM MST
(User Info)

Well....the reason why I rewound the motor was because it let the smoke out in the kitchen here*L*

Anyways does anyone have any ideas about or thoughts about how large of a rotor I'd need to get this thing to spin up by itself in 10 mile an hour gusts?

If I'm being vague or not giving the right info it's because I don't know much about this stuff yet



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by ghurd on Mon Jul 4th, 2005 at 09:57:40 PM MST
(User Info)

I just stick on fan blades of many sizes,
then PVC of many sizes,
and then make a guess!

I'm with Norm for the first guess,
something kind of wide at the root.

The 20" fan blades I have do pretty well
for torque compared to many others.

Been thinking about buying a new one,
rewind with microwave wire,
but all the rest the same,
with 4 magnets, and 3 coil pairs.

G-

[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#31)
by ZooT on Mon Jul 25th, 2005 at 10:16:44 AM MST
(User Info)

Well I whipped up what other folks wouldn't, but I would call a two blade four foot rotor and during one especially strong gust here it actually started up by itself*grin*

Now if I could just get "a bit" more oomph out of the rotor I think I'd have this problem of mine solved.
Do three blade rotors provide more "oomph" in the startup department?

And BTW.......I did get just a mite scarey holding the genny in my hand with the blades spinning fast enough that they looked like a blurr........

Later today I'm going to build a cap with a bolt welded on the end for a piece of one inch thin wall electrical conduit so the  bottom point on the arc of the blade is a few feet over my head for further testing.

Hopefully some pics will show up below......









[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#32)
by ZooT on Mon Jul 25th, 2005 at 10:46:33 AM MST
(User Info)

I forgot to mention that the blades are made out of 1/4" clear poplar and that I planed a "sorta airfoil" on the back side.

If I can get either this prop or a three blade of similiar design to work to my satisfaction, I'm planning on finishing the blades with "monocote" which folks use to skin balsa airplanes......

[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#33)
by ghurd on Mon Jul 25th, 2005 at 11:25:48 AM MST
(User Info)

Looks good!
Hand held is frightening when they get going. With a load they should slow down some, but those are big blades for that conversion so maybe not much.
And they go a lot, LOT faster when the tail is aiming them and you aren't in the way!

Yes. 3 or 4 blades start easier. I think I would go with 4 blades but not that long. A steeper angle starts easier too. More blades or a steeper angle will reduce the RPM or TSR.
I don't know much about blades :/

I wouldn't trust 1" thin wall very long or very high for something that big around.

Don't forget to put 3 or 4 drops of light oil in the bushing pads.

What angle are the blades mounted?

G-

[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#34)
by ZooT on Mon Jul 25th, 2005 at 11:40:47 AM MST
(User Info)

Angle of the blades?

I used an extremely scientific method to design the angle.....using two one by twos for a hub, I cut an angle on each that was just less than a quarter inch deep on both two create an angled slot just less than a quarter inch deep when sandwiched together.....whatever that angle is....it's one quarter inch of drop over a two inch span.

With the "hub" the rotor measures about 4 feet 6 inches, and once started the thing will continue to spin with just a breathe of breeze, and so far off my multimeter I've gotten readings of 15.6 volts on the DC side of my bridge rectifier.

And if thing'll go a "lot, LOT" faster I'm thinking I better use more than thin wire nails to hold it all together.....oh well....I bought a bandful of 10-24 bolts and nuts for the rotor anyways...and I better put in a setscrew or two rather than just a "poosh" fit to hold the rotor on the shaft.....


[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#35)
by ghurd on Mon Jul 25th, 2005 at 11:49:16 AM MST
(User Info)

Sounds just like how I make my blades!
There are plenty here now, so if one set doesn't work out, I just put on another set.  I'm getting better at knowing what is wrong, like too steep/shallow long/short fast/slow...
I am just no good at figuring out what it should start with.
G-

[ Parent ]


Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#36)
by ZooT on Mon Jul 25th, 2005 at 12:57:59 PM MST
(User Info)

I've come to the conclusion that this thing is not my friend when a sudden gust of wind tried to knock me off my feet with the blade spinning about a zillion RPM's*LMAO*

[ Parent ]


Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#43)
by ZooT on Sat Jul 30th, 2005 at 07:59:57 PM MST
(User Info)

Got those swastika hubs bent and everything done as far as the prop goes, and welded together the rest of the genny today.
I cut the blades down just past the "trailing angle?" so the blades themselves are about two inches shorter than they were

Rather than what I expected, when I stood my ten foot thinwall conduit tower/pole up with the genny on it, the thing turned into the wind and the rotor started turning.
All I could do was grin like an idiot*L*
Probably had 15 mile an hour gusts today and I was getting readings 15.4-15.6 volts DC.

After that I tore it apart and painted everything, tomorrow, if it's windy enough I'll put it back together and see if I can get "she who thinks I'm crazy for building a windmill" to snap a pic or two....

Yup....today was a VERY good day grin

[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#44)
by ghurd on Sat Jul 30th, 2005 at 09:13:13 PM MST
(User Info)

Great!  Congrats!

How easy did it start?
If it started very or quite easy, you may want to take off a couple more inches to get some more RPMs. (its not like me to tell someone to cut up something that all ready works)  Maybe 2" at a time if there is no apparent difference in the diffuculty in start-up, then stop at the first sign it starts harder.

But the low voltage reading could say it needs more RPMs.  You were getting 32VAC spinning the 20" fan blade by hand, so it should be getting 40 or 50VDC open circuit without much trouble in the wind.  It sounds like the blade is too slow.
(I'll point out again that I'm not the guy to ask about blades)

My belief, which may not be based on fact. On a day with some wind power, a gust should get it started turning, then it will keep turning a lot easier. And the faster blades will get more power at a lower wind speed after the gust gets it turning past the cogging of course.  I never flew anything that cogs magneticly like I'm sure that does.

""the thing turned into the wind"".  Did you get a tail on it?

With single phase, does it vibrate like a cat with its tounge in a 220 socket?
It might when a battery is connected.

The bridges are high voltage I hope.  Like 100 or 200V.
If the thing gets turning fast, without a charging battery to take the power, the volts can rise very fast and maybe pop the bridges.  I mean, when the blades are right and it really gets spinning, it can just take off spinning much faster than you imagined, the volts can go up a lot faster than many people expect.  And it can shock the s*^t out of you too, which only seems to happen when my neighbors are watching. ("Hey everybody! Come watch! That goofy guy with the fan shocked himself again!")

How much pressure did it put on the mast?  However you can explain it.

G-

[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#45)
by ZooT on Sun Jul 31st, 2005 at 02:28:56 AM MST
(User Info)

I've never gotten anything over 24.6 volts on the DC side of my bridge but in all reality 13.6 or however many volts it's takes to charge a battery with low wind is more than enough for now.

And yes I did put a tail on it....I C-clamped a 2x2 foot piece of 1/4 birch plywood to the angle iron that I'm using for a "body".
Tomorrow the new "tail" cut from the old one(just trimmed some off to give it a better shape) gets bolted on....But it gets bolted on about 8 inches further back to give a tail a bit more leverage for steering
As of right now the alternator is offset 4 inches from the center of the tail so I can add a side furling tail later.

And yes it did push against my "tower/pole" but it wasn't hard to hold or anything.
Needless to say I duct taped my multimeter to my pole so I could use two hands to hold the pole

And after building my new swastika hub, I think I might have done something good rather than bad as the something seems to have either added a flywheel effect of sorts or lowered wind drag caused by the old 2 inch thick wooden hub (X shaped) and it seemed to start easilly, and it keeps spinning at a lower windspeed than before.
Whatever I did it starts a lot easier....it still cogs though

The one thing I did do wrong was I gave no thought to the balance of the entire unit and it's tail heavy. Maybe phase two, the furling mechanism will use a piece of square aluminum tubing to lower the weight on the tail

The bridge is rated at 200 volts......I used heat sink paste and drilled and tapped a CPU heat sink and mounted it to that...

And I've never seen a cat with it's tongue in a 220 socket*L*

[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#46)
by ZooT on Sun Jul 31st, 2005 at 03:38:22 PM MST
(User Info)

Here's a pic of the latest incarnation of my box fan*L*



[ Parent ]


Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#47)
by ghurd on Tue Aug 2nd, 2005 at 09:12:14 AM MST
(User Info)

I'm "gone" for about 2 weeks. I won't be ignoring anyone.
No phone, no grid, no road, no internet, no radio station...
http://www.caesarslodge.com/trophyfishing/littlebenny.html
Taking a break from packing now. Gave up on finishing any work left to do.
G-


[ Parent ]


Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#37)
by ZooT on Tue Jul 26th, 2005 at 12:08:07 PM MST
(User Info)

And how do you determine if the blades are too long?

Please.....I'm not very knowledgable in this field,.....don't tell me it'll stall or some other technical term that I don't know about yet.
Tell me what the physical manifestation will be and what sort behaviour it'll display, so that I can "see" it going on if the blade isn't very well behaved....

[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#38)
by ghurd on Tue Jul 26th, 2005 at 02:17:18 PM MST
(User Info)

LOL !

They have to be just long enogh, but not too long!

Seriously, you are surely asking the wrong guy.
I think I can tell you some physical manifestations,
but I have very little understanding of how some guys can say
"Use a 4.3' dia with a TSR of 6.2" and be right on. It just never works out for me.

OK. The blind leading the blind. Here goes.

With the same TSR (Tip Speed Ratio) A long blade will start easier than a short blade.  The trade off is the long blade turns at a slower RPM than the short blade.

Real example...
I have a stepper motor I had high hopes for.  Put on a longer set of Zub-Woofer PVC blades, because they happened to be on the hub that fit the shaft.
Startup was no problem, but even in a good wind the RPMs were not fast enough to get up to charging voltage.
So I put on a shorter set and they worked great.
So I put on an even shorter set, but they were to short to get really started, because of the cogging.

And when they did get started, the RPMs were high enough to reach cut-in BEFORE there was enough power in the wind to make what the generator wanted to make.
So they wanted to turn faster, but the power to the battery was more than the power in the wind, so it almost acts like electric brakes.
That is my understanding of one kind of stalling.

The other kind of stalling is when the first blade to pass a spot leaves a large wake of turblence behind it, and it interferes with the next blade. At a certain RPM, the thing just can't go any faster because the air is swirling every which way, one blade to the next, keeping the blades from working like they were designed.
High TSR and lots of blades do this kind.

The standard 6 magnet 6 coil box fan conversion's BIG problem is the cogging is huge. To overcome the cogging, it takes a big slow blade, but then the big blade has a low RPM, so it takes a LOT of wind to reach RPMs for charging voltage.
So it ends up being a blade that should make 1000 watts (and tower and related strong enough to handle 1000W of wind) all for a generator that only can make 50 watts.  Jerry's garbo-gen with 4'dia "Jerry Blades" makes what, like 1000 or 2000 watts?

I'm sure most people feel, by the time you have the big blades, strong tower, etc, needed to overcome the cogging, you may as well have something that makes some 'real' power.

That's why I thought I'd try it this way. Keeps everything small, cheap or even free, and easy.
It just worked much better than I expected !

(I have 20 failures for every success.  No kidding.  But I always do stuff that is kind of strange, and always small.  Bigger is easier.  Proven designs are easier. I wonder if this is a proven design? But I find this strange stuff much more gooder funnlier, and fun is the only reason I do it anyway.  Hardly a place for a 20" windmill where I live anyway.)

I'll post a bad news (rust) here too.
G-

[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#40)
by ZooT on Thu Jul 28th, 2005 at 01:10:56 AM MST
(User Info)

Built a four blade rotor today using the same blade size and shape as the two blade above, and while it did start by itself, as you suggested, the blades are too long and it doesn't spin fast enough to produce anything significant.
I'll trim some off the blades tomorrow and try again.......
Once I can get it working right I'm going to laser cut a hub out of either steel or aluminum and build a more than junker rotor....

[ Parent ]


Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#41)
by ghurd on Thu Jul 28th, 2005 at 01:29:43 AM MST
(User Info)

Do NOT take off too much at once!

A little diameter counts for a lot of power.
If I recall corectly, the center 1/3 is only 10% of the power.

Laser Cut?  I have a hacksaw.  And it is not even a good one!
The factory put the teeth on the blade facing the wrong way.
G-

[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#42)
by ZooT on Fri Jul 29th, 2005 at 12:01:55 AM MST
(User Info)

Made up a pair of swastika hubs today configured so the leading edge of the blades will be 1/2" past dead center.
Tomorrow I'll drill the holes and bend the hubs to generate the blade angles and maybe I'll get a picture or two.

Oh and by the way.....did you notice how nicely these motors fit inside a 3 pound coffee can?........you know.....the kind with the resealable plastic lid*grin*

[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#48)
by nothing to lose (nothingtolose175 at yahoo.com) on Tue Aug 2nd, 2005 at 01:15:58 PM MST
(User Info)

"Laser Cut?  I have a hacksaw.  And it is not even a good one!
The factory put the teeth on the blade facing the wrong way."

Ya they sell anything these days. I was putting in a new floor and the store sold me ceiling nails instead of flooring nails. Both boxes had the points on top and heads down :)

Have fun on the trip if you read this before you go, OR, I hope you had fun on the trip if you read this after you get back :)
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.
[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by ZooT on Tue Jul 5th, 2005 at 02:25:46 AM MST
(User Info)

Norm,

I tried some 3/4"x1/4" round ceramic magnets before I got the neos and it didn't produce but 3.4 volts AC at about 800 RPM's on a lathe.
Thinking the ceramics just weren't strong enough to saturate the coils considering that the coils are over a half an inch thick.



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by ghurd on Tue Jul 5th, 2005 at 08:18:10 AM MST
(User Info)

Hey ZooT,
A few things.

About not turning in the wind, but lighting a bulb.
A bulb acts about like a short, and will make it much start MUCH harder with these small blades.  Some of my experiments would speed stall in a light wind, but not even turn connected to a bulb in the same wind.

Will it start with no load and all that cogging?
I don't figure it will, that's why 4 mags and 6 coils seemed like a very good idea.
Even better when it worked!  ;)

How many ohms did 150 turns of #22 come out to?

That was 150 turns total, 25 turns per lamination tooth, right?
Not 150 turns per coil?

You have me wondering if I should rewind this with heavier wire so all 3 phases work.
There is just so little information about the small stuff.

G-

[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by ZooT on Tue Jul 5th, 2005 at 12:20:48 PM MST
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I wound it with 150 turns per tooth making 900 turns total for the entire stator 150x6=900.

Like I said, I don't know much about this stuff yet, but read that if you want more juice you need more turns and stronger magnets......

Got any ideas about what this thing would produce, considering that the entire stator is wound in series for voltage/amperage/wattage if I got rid of the 6 magnets and redid the rotor using 4?
As I've said in probably a 15 mile an hour gust(exact speed unknown) my multimeter shows 13.X volts DC...and that should be enough to give some unknown amount of charge to a 12 volt battery

After all it'd be nice to be able to get away "without" having to build a rotor, and as you've said these fan blades work pretty well all by themselves.....

I've just found out via experimenting that using another lakewood box fan as the wind, that on "high" if I give it just enough bump to make it past one cog, it'll spin up and eventually shows 12.3 volts DC on my multimeter......But it needs to be within about 1 inch of the other fans cage.....



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by Norm (peppysue@suite224.net) on Tue Jul 5th, 2005 at 09:37:58 PM MST
(User Info)

 It wasm't a box fan conversion but I remember
....I think it was TomW saying that he hooked a
switch to the battery so he could energize one coil so he could kinda bump start one that cogged
badly...it didn't matter if it started going in
the other direction because it would go to the
previous cog and bounce back in the right direction and with the wind trying to turn it in
that direction ...it would get over the hump and
start spinning....something like that...anyway it
worked.
                   ( :>) Norm.
( :>) Norm
[ Parent ]


Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by ghurd on Wed Jul 6th, 2005 at 08:18:36 AM MST
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Not sure if that would work every time on a single phase.

(I'm getting bold with these photos Norm.
Even posted the ugly one!
I'll probably regret that later.)

G-

[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by ghurd on Wed Jul 6th, 2005 at 08:12:59 AM MST
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ZooT,

If you go to 4 mags, you MUST rewind the stator.
Or half your voltage is one way and half the other way, so nothing will come out.

The 1 x 1/8" neos are kind of thin. Doubling stacking may help.
Magnetic flux is past my expertise, so I just use the biggest that fit. :)
And a 3/4 x 3/4" x 1/4,  or  3/4 dia x 1/4" would let the air gap be a little smaller.

Maybe it could go to 4 bigger magnets,
and reconnect the coils like I did,
and wire it in star / wye.
Pure speculation.

I got a $10 digital wind gauge from Radio Shack. 6MPH is the lowest it reads.
Before that, I would have guessed a 8MPH wind was 15MPH. Maybe thats just me.

Zubbly told me, for 6 magnets and if the rotor is still round,
to to move #2 and #5 a little clockwise,
and #3 and #6 a little counter-clockwise, to reduce cogging.

Just tested my 'Lakewood' or one that sure looks like one.
Old style rounded blades, not the newer, almost pointed blades.
On high, right against the grill, is 13MPH.  2" out is 11MPH.

Someone said with a good PMG and good 20" blades,
a output of 40 to 50 watts could be had.
That's why I was quite happy to see 30W at 1100RPM,
with very little effort, tools, or money.
(I have about $5.50 in this whole thing, including epoxy)

Windstuff Ed's blade program shows a 20" blade can make 37W in a 28MPH wind.
But I don't think the fan blade will. Mine stall unloaded before 20MPH.
It is $5 well spent.
The other programs I tried don't work right below a 1 meter blade diameter.
iFred has an in depth explanation for Ed's program.

I think my 'good' 20" fan blade is 'making' 20~25W,
but 65% is lost in the high resistance coils.
Have to get back to that one of these days...

Sure wins the ugly contest!



G-

[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#49)
by nothing to lose (nothingtolose175 at yahoo.com) on Tue Aug 2nd, 2005 at 01:32:09 PM MST
(User Info)

"Sure wins the ugly contest!"

No, I think mine still wins, and though moved several times after the trees bloomed it was still flying untill I went to Canada to visit Picmillian. I took everything down before leaving though so no problems while I was gone for the wife in case of storms and such. Time to fly again :)






.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.
[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by ZooT on Wed Jul 6th, 2005 at 12:38:43 AM MST
(User Info)

Tomorrow I'm going to try, just as an experiment, adding some duct tape "blade extenders" to the existing fan blade and see if it'll spin up by itself in front of the other fan......




Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by Norm (peppysue@suite224.net) on Wed Jul 6th, 2005 at 05:48:25 AM MST
(User Info)

....adding some duct tape
......don't forget the Bondo!
         Joking!
             Have a Fun Day!
               ( :>) Norm.
( :>) Norm
[ Parent ]


Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by ghurd on Wed Jul 6th, 2005 at 11:15:35 AM MST
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Did you see these simple blades?
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/6/29/11956/7656

G-

[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by ZooT on Wed Jul 6th, 2005 at 10:28:40 AM MST
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Duct tape?.....bondo?

Heck.....I'm going to bungee cord a tower together and use baling wire to wire the generator to it's mount and maybe stick the tail on with a booger*LoL*

But seriously folks, like I said before this is just a "fun" project......yet if I can produce some useful power(enough to charge a 12 volt trolling motor battery)it'll slip from the "fun category" to the "useful and productive work" category........



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by veewee77 on Wed Jul 6th, 2005 at 10:39:19 AM MST
(User Info)

There's only two things you need in the toolbox, anyway.

Duct Tape and WD-40.

If it moves and shouldn't, Duct Tape it!
If it don't move and should, WD-40 it!

Doug

[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by ZooT on Sat Jul 9th, 2005 at 10:07:31 AM MST
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maybe three magnets?
That should allow the same sort of flow as 6,...shouldn't it?



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#27)
by ghurd on Sat Jul 9th, 2005 at 08:23:00 PM MST
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Sort of.
There will only be half the flux of 6, so it takes twice the turns.
And. A big and.  There will be all of the cogging!

With 4 magnets the cogging is almost non existant. I believe that is the "new big idea".
It also allows for some form of 3 phase, even if it kind of inside out.

I think 4 mags is the way to go.
And some type of 3 phase.  I will rewind one soon (I hope) to test some 3 phase type outputs.  I'm not a big fan of rewinding, so it could take a while.
Plus it breaks my heart to strip the highest output little PMG I ever made.

Wish I still had a O'scope to see the waves.
I'm honestly not sure how the output will look.

Did you see this?  Maybe it will help.
Not that I know much more now than I did then, except it does work!

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/5/4/15729/16162

G-

[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#28)
by ghurd on Sat Jul 9th, 2005 at 10:40:22 PM MST
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Thinking out loud.
Follow me if you can.
You may like this.

Your mags are not that great.
But 31VAC is 44VDC.
And 3 phase star needs 1.73 times LESS turns,
and lowers the effective resistance,
and 44VDC seems kind of high for a 12VDC machine like this.
And you said the cut in is very low.

So,
Lots of guessing, but
I keep getting 240 to 300 turns per phase,
for 4 better neos,
and 3 phase.

You ALREADY HAVE 150 turns per tooth,
thats 300 per phase !!!

So,
it sounds like changing to 4 thicker neos and reassigning the coils (like above) on the machine you have "could" be a very workable idea!

Testing just 1 coil would prove a lot. 4 magnets would be better I think, but 6 should work for a single coil test.

I have been wrong before. Just ask my wife :)
But your setup really doesn't work now and it would be kind of easy to try.
And I had an incident involving a microwave transformer, my thumb, and plenty of blood, so I won't be rewinding anything for a while.
G-

[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#29)
by ZooT on Tue Jul 12th, 2005 at 10:11:54 AM MST
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I wound the stator in one continuious loop all the way around so do I even have phases?
From my unknowledgeable line of thinking I'd think that 6x150=900 turns and a single "phase".......there's only two leads

I know you wired yours as three seperate phases of three coils each, but mine goes all the way around with the leads coming out of number 1 coil and number 6 coil.

Anyways.....yesterday a guy was cleaning the street with a leaf blower...and just for "whatever" I asked him if he'd give the genny a blast.
The leaf blower said on it's side "70 mph" and the genny produced 26.x volts DC at 70 miles an hour but was trying real hard to torque out of my hand at that speed.

Again though I've got to ask.......if I were to build a three blade prop either out of 1/8" plywood as per that other thread here or a 4 foot Zubwoofer design would that generate enough torque to get this thing to spin up?
Or would I be better off building a rotor similiar to a water pumping windmill looking for startup torque rather than super high revs?

You've called your box fan blade your "high torque" blade, and with the cogging I'd think I need torque to get the thing spinning rather than speed, assuming that it spins fast enough to generate the 13 volts or so required to put some charge into a battery......
After all, once it starts it'll continue to spin even if the wind drops way down....It's just getting the darn thing started*L*

[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#30)
by ghurd on Thu Jul 14th, 2005 at 02:09:39 AM MST
(User Info)

Well,

If you change to 4 mags, you must 'reassign' the coils, then it is 3 phases!
I was figuring for stronger mags too.
The 3 phase will increase how effective everything behaves.

I am the very last person to ask about blades!
My plastic box fan blades work great for low rpm, high ohm, many turn alternators.
My 'just like they said' Zub-Woofer blades are great for normal speed alternators.
A 15 to 30 blade may do OK, but I have decided that is not a great way to go.Ever.

I personally don't think a 6 magnet 6 tooth alternator will be any good unless the average wind speed is very VERY high. Like past 20mph.

example: today we had big wind. Charley, Dave, Elvis, or whatever.
Big, really big, bad cogging, stepper motor. 4 at 18"Dia 4"PVC blades.
Low torque, rarely self started.
The 20" box fan blade would have been great for starting, but the top speed would not have got up to charging speed for most well designed wingmills.
TSR, touque, and diameter must balance somewhere. I don't know where.

Following this could help...
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/7/14/42640/9511

G-

[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#39)
by ghurd on Tue Jul 26th, 2005 at 02:36:33 PM MST
(User Info)

Well, bad news that is mostly my fault.
I figured on a rewind later to get all 3 phases working and see how it went.  The magnet rotor was handled a lot, it has been very humid, and time has past.  Got some wind yesterday, so I took a 20" fan blade from our working fan for this alternator.
The shaft had some surface rust and the genny hardly turns now.
In front of a 9MPH fan, it only turns about 60RPMs because of the rust.
Maybe it will clean up.

And the newer donor fan's lams are about 4mm thinner than the old fan I converted.  4mm will add up with that many turns. I think.

Keep them oiled!
G-



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#50)
by OlBuzzard on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 05:24:46 AM MST
(User Info)

Hey team!
I just finished a conversion of my own last week.
I used the original windings and 2 hard drive mags snapped in half.
So I started messing around with one coil pair and Here's the tale...
I threw in a diode in series with a small capactor to sustain charge and a 1kilohm resostor for a small load, nearly open ciruit. Now with this half-wave rectifier I hooked up a cheapie cordless drill and read 2VDC, 10 milliamps short-circuited. I figured that this baby needs more power, so I brung out the ol' electric AC drill spun it up and read 4VDC open, 30 milliamps shorted.
Now I would bet this drill would likely spin the motor faster than the wind will, so this would be a disappointing project.
I am thinking of rewinding the coils, but will it really generate more power?
Where the power? I WANT POWER!!!



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#51)
by ghurd on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 08:30:22 AM MST
(User Info)

"I threw in a diode in series with a small capactor"
That could be a problem. Once the capacator is charged no current will flow.

Rewinding with more turns will make more volts.
Rewinding with heavier wire (lower resistance) makes more amps.

The 'power' comes from the magnets. And those hard drive magnets are very tiny.
I am quite surprised it made 4V!

The magnets I used are 30 times bigger than half a hard drive magnet.

A good set of blades in this size range will turn faster than the drill.

There are plenty of turns.  It takes more magnet than you have.
G-

[ Parent ]



Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#52)
by OlBuzzard on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 06:26:24 AM MST
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Thanks, man.
I knew it. But don't be scared of the cap. when you short it out to measure short circuit current, it doesn't matter. Plus it was wired in parallel to act as a filter to improve the DC characteristics of the half-wave. THe reason I used the diode is because those hefty bridges will eat a volt of sweet energy, while the diode I used was a shottky, which drops only one-fourth that.

[ Parent ]


Re: New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy (3.00 / 0) (#53)
by ghurd on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 07:21:55 AM MST
(User Info)

Try 4 scottky's for a bridge.
Or a 25~35A bridge, at low amps the Vf will be much lower than at Irated, maybe less than 0.4Vf per diode.  Even 6A diodes will have a low Vf at such small amps.

These fans have a LOT of turns (voltage).
With more magnet, the Vf of the diodes is fairly insugnificant compared to the losses in the high coil resistance.

If the thing is complete, try it wired 3 phase star.
I am quite curious about the Vopen.

[ Parent ]



New Idea Makes Box Fan Conversion Very Easy | 53 comments (53 topical, 0 editorial)
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