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Blade Parasitic Drag On Vertical Axis/Horizontal Axis


By IntegEner, Section Wind
Posted on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 10:09:09 PM MST
August 26, 2005

In reading through some of the posts on VAWTs, Darrieuses, eggbeaters, vertical axis turbines, etc. it has become clear to me that something must be said about the parasitic drag of the blades. On all wind turbines but especially these verticals, the blades, no matter how carefully designed with well-studied profiles and how smooth their surfaces, are subject to parasitic drag. When the blades are moving straight into the teeth of the wind nothing can reduce this quite substantial drag on even the best designed blades except creating the blades to be thinner.

Somehow all the kings horses and all the kings men of the past history of wind energy studies at all the Government Labs and in all the large companies involved with this work have not come to terms with this simple concept. It might have something to do with the extensive borrowing of aerodynamic work from aeronautics, in which wing drag in the age of supersonic flight has never been very high on the list of topics about which aviators tell their stories and in concern of which engineers design their fighter jets. In wind energy it surfaces as a much more important part of airfoil design.

There is no use in rebutting comments such as these or in making these comments seem out-of-the-mainstream. This is basic truth of the type that will become well known one way or another. Until recently, even I didn't fully understand the importance of these statements. In putting together some hardware of my own, I saw with my own eyes the disasterous flutter on the leading edges of my small vertical axis wind rotator as the blades turned around on their rotation into the wind. I could see immediately that this was the cause of all vertical axis troubles. I could see that what I was witnessing and what I had seen from all my contact with the technology were two different things.

It is like a completely new chapter is yet to be written in all of wind energy. The blades on wind turbines have not been taking into account sufficiently the presence of parasitic drag.

Anthony Chessick
www.integener.com  

Blade Parasitic Drag On Vertical Axis/Horizontal Axis | 17 comments (17 topical)

Blade Parasitic Drag (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Bruce S on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 05:33:46 PM MST

Anthony;
  Thanks for the input. Not wanting to seem impolite or anything, but I had a little bit of a time getting where you were going with this.
Could you put up some pics of your blades and computational numbers?
Perhaps with input from your tests and other's vast knowledge from trial and error, that new chapter could be on it's way.

Cheers
Bruce S

 



Re: Blade Parasitic Drag (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by IntegEner on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 10:47:09 PM MST

To Bruce S. Thanks for your comment.

Hope this pic helps. More such images are to be found at www.integener.com along with this adventure story in better detail.

Small rotators of this size are known only for their decorative value. The eight foot tall farm windmill seen in many front yards comes to mind. Numbers?? The shaft runs down below the little ledge to be seen in the pics and a 4 inch diameter pulley was fastened to the shaft. Then we bought a small 12 volt bicycle generator (actually an alternator that runs with a little wheel with friction off the tire rims) and pressed it up against the rotating pulley and lit a little LED light with it in winds not much above 5 - 7 mph. I am embarrassed to claim such a small amount of power production. Little as it is, the town of Tehachapi, California, one of the windpower capitols of the world, was excited by this small event here and a short article appeared about it in one of the weeklies. More info will be provided as testing continues.

Anthony Chessick
Tehachapi, CA
www.integener.com

[ Parent ]



Re: Blade Parasitic Drag (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by IntegEner on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 10:50:31 AM MST

Bruce S: Hope this gets to you perhaps as "Recent Replies" or even if this has been put on your "Hotlist". This same message is also going to the others who have taken a serious look at this topic.

The project identified in these postings has been submitted to a state grant program as a pre-proposal abstract and word was just received that it has passed this first hurdle. The deadline for the full proposal submittal is the end of the month of September. Competition in these is quite high especially now with increased focus on energy issues. It does not matter where you are located as long as benefits from the work accrue to this state, my location. It is very good news that this project is in the running and you are invited to provide help with this insofar as your interests and time allow.

Incidentally, both verticals and horizontals are to be covered and a rotor for a horizontals rotator that makes use of these same concepts is to be made today. There is no time to put all this out on this discussion list and discretion is advised in keeping the good name of the "OtherPower" board intact. Some curiosity has surfaced over what the dickens these guys on the OtherPower home page have been doing as developers of the 17 foot diameter 3 kw wind turbine presented in such superb detail. The efforts proposed here under this grant program (links available upon request) suggest tests using about the same turbine rating.

Anthony "Knucks" Chessick
www.integener.com


[ Parent ]



Re: Blade Parasitic Drag On Vertical Axis/Horizont (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 06:25:31 PM MST

Hi, Anthony.

I note that the problem of drag is not just when you're dead-on into the wind but also when you're at some angle to it.

The reason airfoils have a rounded front is so they can let the airstream "attach" to the surfaces at a range of angles of attack:  The incoming air slows and splits where it's going at a right-angle to the rounded leading edge, then follows the surface around in both directions.  (Of course that means some of it bashes into the leading edge and creates some unavoidable drag.  But allowing clean attachment and eliminating high drag on the surfaces for a range of attack angles is a good tradeoff for a little drag at the leading edge.)  If your leading edge is too sharp, the air doesn't follow it around when it's not pointed just right, but instead peels off and separates, creating a string of vortices (with a resulting vibration), a low-pressure area behind the detachment region, and drag rather than lift.

Is this perhaps what you're seeing?

The trailing edge is sharp because that lets the attached airstreams from the two sides leave the foil and reconnect with each other without applying a vacuum to a large area of the trailing edge, which would suck the airfoil backward, creating drag again.

Drag-type vertical turbine designs (such as savonius) have positions in the rotation where the airflow is unavoidably detached.  The edges also serve alternately as leading and trailing, so they can't be optimized for both.  Lift-type designs (such as darrieus) avoid this by spinning up faster than the wind, so the blades experience wind from the front throughout the complete cycle (though at considerably varying angles of attack).  They thus never need to experience airflow detachment, and have distinct leading and trailing edges that can be optimized for their jobs.



Re: Blade Parasitic Drag On Vertical Axis/Horizont (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by IntegEner on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 10:11:07 PM MST

Ungrounded LR: Right on. Right on. I agree with what you say and thank you for your comment. It would save time both here and for replying to other comments if the website is visited: www.integener.com . A good story is to be found there about an adventure underway with an ultra-thin-bladed half square meter rotator. Leading edges must be round and not sharp especially on the verticals. The little from the upwind dividing line that "bashes" square into the front of it also serves the purpose of becoming part of the leading edge itself and making it effectively sharper to divert the rest of the flow that doesn't. The remainder of the blade after the round leading edge can be sheet thin, if you will pardon my lack of reverence for accepted dogma and if such a blade will support the loads placed on it. The purpose, as you say, is to divert and deflect the wind and blade thickness is not necessary for this. It is hugely important that wind turbine blades be made thin.

The experience gained with the device I have over the last 12 months it has been running is that (1) the doubled blades allow it to start up and run (no small feat!) instead of sitting there without flow attachment on the blades and refusing to do a thing in the wind and (2) making the doubled blades thinner allows it to run faster instead of just turning as slow as molasses. This has been a total revelation to me and I'll bet my excitement shows.

The other thing is that I am sure something can be learned in the case of the horizontals from this as well.

Anthony Chessick
www.integener.com    

[ Parent ]



Re: Blade Parasitic Drag On Vertical Axis/Horizont (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by windstuffnow on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:34:39 AM MST

Anthony,
    I've been following along with your "bent air law" and your double wing machine with great interest.  Although, I tend to work on my own machine following my theories I still find it quite interesting as to what others are working on.

    I have a quick question before I go on... have you worked out the angles between the wings for each to run in its respective TSR?  If the wings are set at a given angle between the two then one will run well at a slower speed while the other is slightly stalled, creating drag.  As well, when the other is working well at a faster speed the inner one may be running out of its respective TSR, also creating drag.  I'm sure you've worked out the differences but it was just an observation from looking at the machine in a picture where angles cannot be easily seen.

    A little background on wing design and changes that create big differences in the way they perform.  I spent 10 years of my life building aircraft from scratch, very challenging and quite fun ( sometimes quite dangerous).  I had the opportunity to fly many different designs and each have their good and bad qualities.  The ones that really stand out in reguards to verticle wind turbines was one called the condor and another called Quicksilver.  Both of these were single surface wings with a large arch forming the air foil.  Although they were a very draggy design they performed quite amazingly.  At 22mph they would lift 600 lbs off the ground.   When I first took the quick up for some stall tests I found a very docile, easy to control airplane.  Also, it was very difficult to get it to stall even at extreem angles.  If there was power, even a small amount, it simply wouldn't stall.  I was up around 2500 ft and decided to see how it handled without any power ( good to practice if you fly with a 2 stroke engine ).  I held the stick all the way back in my lap and the nose went high... and stayed there with a slight buffet, I knew the wings were stalled because of the awful noise comming from the structure but it held its attitude and simply lost altitude.

   Anyway, without boring you further with fun flying.  I carried these wing designs along with me into the verticals since most the most power we try to extract is from winds in the range of 6-20 mph.  These wings are draggy but that, I believe, is why they work so well.  They produce an enormous amount of lift, they will not go fast, but they operate in a very large range of angles without stalling as well as really nice low wind performance.  In higher winds they will fail to produce good output.  In an airplane this isn't a good thing, the more power you give it all you do is burn fuel and it will maintain its slow flight.  In a wind turbine if it fails to produce in winds over 30 mph and sits there doing its normal output not gaining speed and eating up the power, this is a good thing ( built in controls ).  

  Thus the Lenz turbine was born.  Below shows a picture of the newest version of the wings which so far have been quite successful...



  Fat, draggy, lots of lift!

.
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]



Re: Blade Parasitic Drag On Vertical Axis/Horizont (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by rotornuts on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:33:56 AM MST

I absolutely love it Ed, That leading edge is going to work really well I think. Can't wait to see the results.

Mike


[ Parent ]



Re: Blade Parasitic Drag On Vertical Axis/Horizont (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by IntegEner on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 02:08:06 PM MST

Ed, thanks for the information and the pic. For your benefit and that of some of the others as well, a couple of photos are included below of the "Half Square Meter Verticals MicroRotator" as it has been located the last week or so some 65 miles away from here and east of Palmdale, California at the popular "Penney Lynn" store selling wind mobiles for the home and kites for young and old. The website of the store is: www.wind-toys-online.com and it has an affiliate program mentioned on it for anyone wanting to earn some money from these endeavors.

The Rotator is not even a fully developed item for the marketplace! It needs, for example, a nice, flat ring attached to each the top and bottom of the rotor blades of each rotor for structural purposes. Anyone want to give me a quote on something like this?







Anthony Chessick
www.integener.com

[ Parent ]



Re: Blade Parasitic Drag On Vertical Axis/Horizont (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by IntegEner on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 10:12:08 AM MST

Ed Lenz (aka windstuffnow): Hope this gets to you perhaps as "Recent Replies" or even if this has been put on your "Hotlist". This same message is also going to the others who have taken a serious look at this topic.

The project identified in these postings has been submitted to a state grant program as a pre-proposal abstract and word was just received that it has passed this first hurdle. The deadline for the full proposal submittal is the end of the month of September. Competition in these is quite high especially now with increased focus on energy issues. It does not matter where you are located as long as benefits from the work accrue to this state, my location. It is very good news that this project is in the running and you are invited to provide help with this insofar as your interests and time allow.

Incidentally, both verticals and horizontals are to be covered and a rotor for a horizontals rotator that makes use of these same concepts is to be made today. There is no time to put all this out on this discussion list and discretion is advised in keeping the good name of the "OtherPower" board intact.

I have your website and e-mail address and so may repeat this comment outside of the OtherPower format. What is of some use to me would be the winding of a three phase axial flux generator of a size suitable for the device pictured on the website. If you wish more information about the grant program I would be happy to send it to you.

Anthony "Knucks" Chessick
www.integener.com


[ Parent ]



Re: Blade Parasitic Drag On Vertical Axis/Horizont (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 12:22:56 PM MST

The purpose, as you say, is to divert and deflect the wind and blade thickness is not necessary for this. It is hugely important that wind turbine blades be made thin.

Not always:  The purpose is to extract work form the wind.  You do that by diverting it, of course.  But you can sometimes extract even more work from it by adjusting its speed.  That's what a wing does - forcing the air to take a longer path, flow faster, lower its pressure further, and thus generate more lift, on the topside of the single foil.

And that's why lift-type mills, both vertical (darrieus) and horizontal (the ones that look like propellors, rather than the drag-type that look more like fans or blowers) have thick blades.

I like your double-bladed design as shown above.  (I'll delve into your web site later.)  Between the picture and your description it sounds like you're doing two things that sailboaters have done for a while, but applying them to a mill to good effect:

First, you're using a doubled blade - like the jib and mainsail on a sloop, the simplest of the multi-sail designs.  The jib does two things:  It provides its own lift, of course.  But it also directs the wind against the backside of the mainsail.  This improves both the attachment and the airspeed on the lee-side airflow of the main, increasing the power of the main.  You get, more power, power going TOWARD the wind (though not straight into it) and with two sails you get power at a TIGHTER ANGLE toward the wind.  You also get a more forgiving adjustment on the sail angles, which, in a rigid blade configuration, amounts to getting good power for a wider arc of the rotation.  An important point, though, is that the extra blade gives you the ability to increase the speed of the air over the leaward side of the (trailing) blade using only thin blades, rather than requiring a thick structure.  So you get a lift-type turbine with thin blades.  (You might think of it as separating and reversing the top and bottom sides of a thick blade, though that's probably distracting from what's really going on.  B-)  )  It also means you can have a TSR greater than 1 and optimize your leading and trailing edges separately.

The experience gained with the device I have over the last 12 months it has been running is that (1) the doubled blades allow it to start up and run (no small feat!) instead of sitting there without flow attachment on the blades and refusing to do a thing in the wind and (2) making the doubled blades thinner allows it to run faster instead of just turning as slow as molasses. This has been a total revelation to me and I'll bet my excitement shows.

And diservedly.  The combo of the blades makes it act like a drag turbine at startup, then switch to a lift turbine as it speeds up.  Good work!  (Like a Darrieus with a Savonius starter rotor, but without the non-optimized Savonius in the way when you're up and running.)

Second:  Sails themselves are thin but (except for jibs) the mast provides a fat leading edge.  Your text sounds like you've done something similar.  (I'll dig into your web site to see if this is a correct reading.)

The other thing is that I am sure something can be learned in the case of the horizontals from this as well.

Perhaps.

But lift-type horizontals are already well-developed and pushing the wall on efficiency.  The Betz limit tells you the maximum power can be extracted from a given airflow, and they're within a couple percent of it, so there's not a lot of room for improvement.

Horizontals, though, still have a long way to go.  The best Savonius designs in the literature are only getting about 2/3s of the power available, and the Darrieus designs also don't get all that close to the Betz limit and have major structural integrity issues.  And verticals are harder to protect from high wind damage because they don't have an aiming mechanism that can be subverted to feather them.  If these dusadvantages could be overcome verticals might be better than horizontals because of the relative simplicity of construction of large - and thus high-power - machines.  Thin-bladed lift-type vertical turbines (like the designs you and windstufnow are developing appear to be) could be the answer.

[ Parent ]



Re: Blade Parasitic Drag On Vertical Axis/Horizont (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Mon Aug 29, 2005 at 01:50:26 AM MST

Horizontals, though, still have a long way to go.

Oops.  Meant "Verticals, though, ..."

[ Parent ]



Re: Blade Parasitic Drag On Vertical Axis/Horizont (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by IntegEner on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:00:43 AM MST

Undergrounded Lightning Rod: Thanks for the time and extensive word work. It is nice that someone uses the terms "horizontals" and "verticals". It is so hard on the tongue and ears otherwise. It is like reducing the parasitic drag of the blades in that an ounce of consideration results in benefits out of proportion. Air is heavy and has viscosity and is quite a story apart from the hardware.

The "Knucks"
www.integener.com

[ Parent ]



Re: Blade Parasitic Drag On Vertical Axis/Horizont (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by IntegEner on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 10:00:40 AM MST

UL Rod: Hope this gets to you perhaps as "Recent Replies" or even if this has been put on your "Hotlist". This same message is also going to the others who have taken a serious look at this topic.

The project identified in these postings has been submitted to a state grant program as a pre-proposal abstract and word was just received that it has passed this first hurdle. The deadline for the full proposal submittal is the end of the month of September. Competition in these is quite high especially now with increased focus on energy issues. It does not matter where you are located as long as benefits from the work accrue to this state, my location. It is very good news that this project is in the running and you are invited to provide help with this insofar as your interests and time allow.

Incidentally, both verticals and horizontals are to be covered and a rotor for a horizontals rotator that makes use of these same concepts is to be made today. There is no time to put all this out on this discussion list and discretion is advised in keeping the good name of the "OtherPower" board intact.

Anthony "Knucks" Chessick
www.integener.com

[ Parent ]



Re: Blade Parasitic Drag On Vertical Axis/Horizont (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by rotornuts on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 11:59:12 PM MST

Anthony, First I would like to say that I'm happy your interested in the significance of drag second, I would like to say that it doesn't always recieve much attention because it is a complicated topic and beyond the interest of alot of the folks here.

Drag in a vertical has been discussed here before but the discussion is usually limited and the idea of upwind cycle blade drag is actually of great interest to several of us. Not many of us are actually trying that hard to innovate verticals but I can assure you that for those of us who are we're not lost on drag we just don't all agree on methodology. That said I can nicely seguay into my response that I don't agree that a thin profile is the only appropriate profile for a vertical.

The flutter your machine was experiencing wasn't neccessarily due to excessive parasitic drag. You could have been simply seeing the consiquences of lift on a blade that wasn't strong enough. As your blades come into the wind reaching the AoA's that produce the most lift you could have seen a deflection of the blade that caused a lift stall, lift stall type oscillation. It's also possible that the flutter was due to vortex drag at the tips causing deflections if you blades were attached to center mount struts.

Thin and thick airfoils both experience parasitic drag in all it's incarnations because other than thickness they both share features that create drag. Both have tips that cause vortex or "tip" drag, both have a pressure differential between the upper and lower surfaces and boundry layer transition areas that cause induced drag, both will experience pressure drag and both will experience viscous drag. I almost forgot to mention that attachment points will of course cause interference drag equally with both thicknesses.

I'm no aerodynamicist and I have no wind tunnel but I can speculate on the drag consiquences of various designs based on others research. The design you've come up with is interesting but I can't see how it reduces drag simply as a result of the low thickness ratio of your blades. I think the best part of the design is the doubled blades which essentially are opperating with a wing/flap or slot relationship. This is likely to reduce some of the lift induced drag or pressure drag because of the delayed seperation at higher AoA's although as rod pointed out above, your leading edge on your lead blade is likely doing you harm by causing premature separation at the lead edge. I would also question the harm that may be occuring at the tips especially in the open area between blades

In my opinion a vertical requires a blade that performs over a very large AoA range. If you utilize a blade with a low thickness ratio you are like to experience severely limit AoA ranges and significant drag as a result of more time spend in heavy stall. At the reynold numbers that smaller machines are operating at, thinner profiles can actually experience more drag in relation lift because of the abrupt leading edge. The air may not have enough energy to make an abrupt transition which can lead to premature separation.

Anyway, I'm curious if perhaps I've somehow mislead myself because I have actually come to the opposite conclusion as you. I agree that the slotted wing is a good approch but it's not new.

Could you provide a section view of your profile?

Mike



Re: Blade Parasitic Drag On Vertical Axis/Horizont (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by IntegEner on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:33:30 AM MST

Mike: I am just some dunderhead and need time to answer these questions. It is wonderful receiving lengthy comments and learning that this area has been looked at. Updates, including now section views of the profiles, are to be added to the website: www.integener.com . The people on whose ground the rotator is shown in the views have a business named "Working Design" and suggested I obtain a technical book by "Abbott and von Doenhoff", which I have ordered through amazon.com and which should arrive in a day or two. It is the classic text on aeronautics wing profile thickness-to-chord ratios.

They say that even a microsecond of flutter on an aircraft is enough to destroy it, so careful is everyone to avoid such problems. It is the first thing I always look for on this rotator, my head swinging back and forth like a bobblehead. It was gratifying the day that it began to accelerate with stronger winds rather than showing signs of stall. As you say, these things are quite complicated, more so than many realize.

I honestly think, having seen what I have seen, that the horizontals, with the exception of some of the Danish mid-range turbines like the Windmatics and the Nordtanks, are in need of improving their thickness-to-chord ratios. Those narrow blades need to be made either thinner or wider if they are not already pushing the envelope. I am not afraid to suggest also that doubling blades even there would be an acceptable approach.

Anthony "The Knucks" Chessick
www.integener.com

[ Parent ]



Re: Blade Parasitic Drag On Vertical Axis/Horizont (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by IntegEner on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 10:04:30 AM MST

Mike (aka rotornuts): Hope this gets to you perhaps as "Recent Replies" or even if this has been put on your "Hotlist". This same message is also going to the others who have taken a serious look at this topic.

The project identified in these postings has been submitted to a state grant program as a pre-proposal abstract and word was just received that it has passed this first hurdle. The deadline for the full proposal submittal is the end of the month of September. Competition in these is quite high especially now with increased focus on energy issues. It does not matter where you are located as long as benefits from the work accrue to this state, my location. It is very good news that this project is in the running and you are invited to provide help with this insofar as your interests and time allow.

Incidentally, both verticals and horizontals are to be covered and a rotor for a horizontals rotator that makes use of these same concepts is to be made today. There is no time to put all this out on this discussion list and discretion is advised in keeping the good name of the "OtherPower" board intact.

Anthony "Knucks" Chessick
www.integener.com


[ Parent ]



Re: Blade Parasitic Drag On Vertical Axis/Horizont (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by IntegEner on Tue Oct 25, 2005 at 10:09:11 PM MST

The grant proposal mentioned in the above messages went in before the deadline of September 30th, 9 copies of 33 pages. It discussed the topic of wind turbine blade parasitic drag at length. Receipt has been acknowledged by the state agency and the several stages of approval are now underway.

In addition, the horizontals rotator also mentioned has been constructed and has run for over a month now. It has the same type of blades as the verticals rotator, thin aluminum sheets with a folded (rounded) leading edge and doubled blades with the offset.

Everyone agrees hereabouts who has seen it that it performs remarkably well (albeit just a free wheeling, nonpowered device), rotating at high rates of speed in light winds. The trailing edge pitch angle of all the blades is also a feature of it - zero degrees. Yes, it performs noticeably better than the verticals rotator for approximately the same blade swept area - one half of a square meter.

Doubled, sheet thin blades. A low thickness-to-chord ratio. This is a serious attempt to reduce parasitic drag and so far it has provided excellent results. It is important to understand that my approach has a name - the Newtonian Principle of Aerodynamics, a term coined by others. This is unlike the more inductive approaches typically seen in most flight-oriented aerodynamics work until just a few years ago. A look at what is on the www.integener.com website explains. Some nice photos are also to be viewed there of both rotators in action.

Thin blades. Thin blades. Thin blades. I have seen the difference in the actual reality of what has resulted with real hardware. Get rid of all flutter and flow separation off the leading edges and make the blades thin. The one and only function of the blades in producing energy is to shovel the wind from one vector direction to another. I will accept no disagreements or other viewpoints on this.

Anthony Chessick
IntegEner-W
Tehachapi, CA
www.integener.com

[ Parent ]



Blade Parasitic Drag On Vertical Axis/Horizontal Axis | 17 comments (17 topical)
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