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working vawt?


By electrondady1, Section Wind
Posted on Sat Aug 6th, 2005 at 12:26:37 PM MST
any one got a power producing vawt?

danf's artical was a little discuraging for me as i struggle with my design. if anyone has a functional unit now is the time to stand to.
working vawt? | 10 comments (10 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: working vawt? (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by windstuffnow (elenz(at)windstuffnow(dot)com) on Sat Aug 6th, 2005 at 06:50:15 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.windstuffnow.com/main

  Discouraging in what way?  I've built several smaller ones ( all less than 250 watts ) and they've all worked quite nicely... with the exception of a couple experimental ones that just didn't perform well.  

  They have their plus's and minus's as do the HAWT's...

  I think it depends on how you look at things, half full?  half empty?  I can see potential in all of them.
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed



Re: working vawt? (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by tecker on Sat Aug 6th, 2005 at 07:13:46 AM MST
(User Info)

 

  I see the Vawt advantage a question of space available. Useing elements to direct prevailing winds to a vortex area .  



Re: working vawt? (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Norm (peppysue@suite224.net) on Sat Aug 6th, 2005 at 07:42:09 AM MST
(User Info)

   On the otherhand I've found your comments to
be very encouraging to me....as I hope some of mine are....I've made dozens of little vawt's
none as yet connected to an alternator  or generator.  Don't look for Power in the kind of
wind available to us in our location just look
at the Energy ...this was what I was trying to
get across to some of us in....'Yay Savonius and
5-7......'
              The Day is yours....Enjoy!
                  ( :>) Norm.
( :>) Norm


Re: working vawt? (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by electrondady1 on Sat Aug 6th, 2005 at 12:46:24 PM MST
(User Info)

thanks guys, i must have been having a "half empty" episode this morning. but i'm the most stubborn person i know. no way i'm quiting. my son gave me the name electrondady , ive got to live up to it.

shawn

[ Parent ]



Re: working vawt? (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by spinner (itsmejonny@email2me.net) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 06:30:44 AM MST
(User Info)

opinion:

ya build what you can, from what you can dream up,with the tools you have AND with YOUR sites winds in mind....lots of us lack our own machine shop or unlimited supplies of mags and wire (or the cash to simply buy what we'd LIKE to have)

its DIY, ain't it?
keep at it
thanx
spinner

[ Parent ]



Re: working vawt? (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by hvirtane (hannu_markus_virtanen(at)yahoo(dot)com) on Sat Aug 6th, 2005 at 03:14:32 PM MST
(User Info) http://web.archive.org/web/20050404022706/www.cc.jyu.fi/~hvirtane/cooker/

danf's article was
a little discouraging for me
as i struggle with my design.
if anyone has a functional unit
now is the time to stand to.

DanF's article is very nice.

But the picture on the page 21
describing the power of different
wind machine designs seems to be
a wrong one especially
concerning Savonius rotors.

The correct knowledge
is available from G. Johnson.

http://www.eece.ksu.edu/~gjohnson/

---

I wanted again to point out here
the same thing, which I've
posted on this site
already earlier.

----------------------------
Most of the people
have got a wrong opinion
about the power coefficient
of Savonius rotor.

-----------------------------

According to American
research it is actually
quite good.

Unfortunately
the efficiency is put
wrong in most text books
about wind energy.

See below.

-----

From:

Wind Energy Systems
by Dr. Gary L. Johnson November 20, 2001  
http://www.eece.ksu.edu/~gjohnson/    

----

Agreement on the efficiency
of the Savonius turbine apparently
has finally been reached a
half century after its development.
Savonius claimed an efficiency
of 31 per cent in the wind
tunnel and 37 per cent
in free air.
However, he commented:
[10] "The calculations of Professor
Betz gave 20 % as the highest
theoretical maximum
for vertical airwheels, which under the
best of circumstances could
not produce more
than 10 % in practical output."
The theoretical
and experimental results failed
to agree. Unfortunately,
Savonius did not specify the shape
and size of his turbine well
enough for others
to try to duplicate his results.

A small unit of approximately
2 m high by 1 m diameter
was built and tested at Kansas
State University during the period
1932-1938[6]. This unit was
destroyed by a high wind, but
efficiencies of 35 to 40 %
were claimed by the researchers.
Wind tunnel tests were performed
by Sandia on 1.5 m high by 1 m
diameter Savonius turbines,
with a maximum efficiency
measured of 25 % for
semicircular blades[1].

Different blade shapes
which were tested at the
University of Illinois showed
a maximum efficiency of
about 35 %[5].
More Savonius turbines
were tested at Kansas State
University, with efficiencies
reported of about 25 %[13, 4].
It thus appears that the Savonius,
if properly designed,
has an efficiency nearly as good as the
horizontal axis propeller turbine
or the Darrieus turbine.
The Savonius turbine therefore
holds promise in applications
where low to medium technology
is required or where the high
starting torque is important.

A chart of efficiency of five
different turbine types
is shown in Fig. 8. The efficiency or
power coefficient varies with
the ratio of blade tip speed
to wind speed, with the peak value
being the number quoted for
a comparison of turbines.
This will be discussed in more detail
in Chapter 4. It may be noticed
that the peak efficiencies
of the two bladed propeller, the
Darrieus, and the Savonius
are all above 30 %, while
the American Multiblade and the Dutch
windmills peak at about 15 %.
These efficiencies indicate
that the American Multiblade is
not competitive for
generating electricity,
even though it is almost
ideally suited and very
competitive for pumping water.

The efficiency curves for
the Savonius and
the American Multiblade have
been known for
a long time[6, 10].
Unfortunately, the labels
on the two curves
were accidentally interchanged
in some key publication
in recent years, with the result
that many authors have used an
erroneous set of curves
in their writing. This historical
accident will probably take years to
correct.

------
------

The correct picture of
the power curves of the different
wind machines
is published on the next
page of Jonson's book.
Please see it there.  

---

Also it is not correct
to say that that all successful
electricity producing
modern wind machines are HAWTs.

For example 'Windside' from Finland
is a VAWT.

At present I know
only about one a little bit bigger
installed machine of this type.
The machine is in Raisio, Finland.
It has got two helical rotors
as coupled together giving
the rated power 50 kW.

That machine seems
to be quite efficient.
For example during one year
that machine produced
about 400 kWh/square meter.
It was the best wind machine
installed in Finland
during that year.
The best HAWT type produced
about 300 kWh/square meter
during the same year.

- Hannu



Re: working vawt? (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by electrondady1 on Sat Aug 6th, 2005 at 04:34:53 PM MST
(User Info)

thanks for reminding me hannu, yes, that windside vawt is a  thing of beauty,and one of my original inspirations. it's unfortunate the mixup in efficiency curves was made and is still being reproduced.

i feel i must confess the major source of my frustration, and hope every novice builder pays attention.

NEVER BUILD A 10"DIA. DUAL ROTOR GENERATOR WHEN BOTH YOUR DRILL PRESS AND LATHE ARE ONLY 8" MAXIMUM


[ Parent ]



Re: working vawt? (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by rotornuts on Sat Aug 6th, 2005 at 08:41:35 PM MST
(User Info)

Hey electrondady, On monday I finally started what will hopefully be a half full Vawt based on the "closed center digression back to a modified savonius" design I did. It started as a straight blade thats 12" by 26" but after some crude flight tests I learned that as the diameter increases the torque pulsing of a straight blade is too much so because of my build method it was relatively easy to make it a helical blade. Has a pink polystyrene foam core and currently has one layer of fiberglass on it.

All the stories about polyester resin melting polystyrene are true but I painted the foam with several coats of latex primer and it reduced the melting to an acceptable level for a first build but in the future I will use an epoxy resin which is polystyrene foam safe(all epoxy resins are). The pink foam I used is the densest polysyrene available so there is no chance a higher grade will withstand the resin as this is as good as it gets. Another thing I may try is replacing resin with Minwax Polycrylic. I read about it at an RC modelers site and it appearently works well and may prove usefull for a sealer coat.

Don't bother trying the primer coat thing over foam as the results aren't really good. I only went ahead with it to utilize materials I have on hand and because this one will slowly get butchered anyhow as I'll be using it hopefully as a power producing test bed for some of my ideas.

Anywho, Don't be discouraged, the world was flat not long ago.

Mike

[ Parent ]



Re: working vawt? (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by electrondady1 on Sat Aug 6th, 2005 at 09:48:51 PM MST
(User Info)

thanks for the laugh mike , now if i could only get my stators flatt!!!
 don't forget to show us a photo before you beat it up.it sounds great.i'm making progress too, my mag disks are now runing true enough to show me the stators are kind of warped. ha ha  

[ Parent ]


Re: working vawt? (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by spinner (itsmejonny@email2me.net) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 06:37:35 AM MST
(User Info)

windside turbines have inspired lotsa people (including myself) to venture into some kind of similar VAWT

stay with it and ENJOY!

thanx
spinner

[ Parent ]



working vawt? | 10 comments (10 topical, 0 editorial)
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