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I need a "lift" and your help
By Linda, Section Hydro Posted on Wed Sep 28th, 2005 at 05:56:48 PM MST
Generating lift from creek

Damn this Western drought! My beautiful spring fed pond is drying up. I'm looking for ideas on how to get water from the nearby fast moving stream into my pond. The stream is about 4 feet below the pond level, so if I could lift the water this high I could the let gravity and a pipe transfer the creek water to the pond. This needs to run year round, and the stream is year round but in the dry season it's only about 6 inches deep. I can easily get a foot or so of drop by felling a tree over the stream bed, and this will give me a little more depth too. What is the easiest way to convert the force of stream flow into lift?
Linda

I need a "lift" and your help | 38 comments (38 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by cr8zy1van (salsa117@hotmail.com) on Wed Sep 28th, 2005 at 01:09:01 PM MST
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I couldnt find the exact name for this, but I have seen these used in the past. Not sure how effective they are

Basically, a waterwheel, with scoops/buckets attached to one side. As the waterwheel rotates, it drags cups/buckets that fill with water. These then deposit the water into a collector one cup at a time, a few inches/feet higher. Of course there may be more effective options out there, but this has been used for years.. Apart from a functional water lifter, it would also be a conversation piece!:)

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by MaxFlow on Thu Sep 29th, 2005 at 07:54:04 AM MST
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Useing the above diagram, instead of useing buckets, you can wrap a spiral of flexable pipe around the wheel, and each time it goes back around it pushes water back up through the tube, at the axel you would have the exit point of the flow.
You could use the plastic pipe used for diverting gutter water, I know it comes in 4 inch diameters around here, if you have enough flow force, just wrap another concentric winding and get double the flow.
Do you have a picture that you can upload of the stream, closest to where you want to divert it.
PS, someone might say that you would have to have the water piped out of the axel, but thats not nessesary if on the outflow side of the wheel the axel is longer to the brace, you could have a collecter and diverter between this.
If your interrested in this thought let me know, I'll draw you up a picture of what I mean.
Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world. Archimedes
[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by MaxFlow on Thu Sep 29th, 2005 at 08:05:39 AM MST
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sorry didnt see Wild in Alaskas link, http://www.ata.org.au/articles/65watwel.htm, before posting.
Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world. Archimedes
[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by Linda on Sat Oct 1st, 2005 at 01:02:11 PM MST
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MaxFlow,
Thanks for your help, and yes I sure would appreciate a sketch. This "spiral" pump sounds like it operates on the same principle as a "sling" pump, have you heard of this? I ordered a sling pump and tried it and had only one problem, the pump is secured at only one point (up stream) and then it floats free in the creek and rotates. With each rotation the hose inside takes a gulp of water followed by a gulp of air. The pump was able to lift water to about 8 feet which was great, but since the device floated free it would wave back and forth in the creek bed, bottoming out and not staying parallel to the flow thereby stopping operation. If I can build a device that will be firmly anchored on each side of the creek, using the paddle wheel method I can then hold it secure. I'll look for a picture of the creek for you. I would go take one now, but have misplaced my cable for uploading my pics from my camera, How aggravating! Where can I go for detailed designs on a spiral pump? I'll check out the links that you and others have posted.
Thanks, so much,
Linda
Linda
[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#35)
by MaxFlow on Fri Oct 7th, 2005 at 07:46:34 PM MST
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Sorry I haven't had alot of time to be on the net for awhile, and it doesnt seem like I'm going to have alot of time in the near future, (taking care of disabled parent with MS, battening down the hatches getting ready for winter, and trying to get my business off the ground, but I'll try to get a picture drawn up for you, if you still would like one.
Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world. Archimedes
[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Linda on Sat Oct 1st, 2005 at 12:42:50 PM MST
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Thanks dcr8zy1van for the diagram, it is somewhat like what I'd envisioned. I like the concept of combining this with the spiral pump and will persue this further. Linda
Linda
[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by crashk6 (crashk6(at)solarstormtechnologies(dot)com) on Wed Sep 28th, 2005 at 03:02:35 PM MST
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Hey Linda,
If you can get any head from the stream you might be able to use a hydo-ram pump. If you have the needed conditions it would work well, be an easly managable size to construct, and need absolutly no electric power.
--
crashK6

Ram-Pump (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by wdyasq on Wed Sep 28th, 2005 at 08:19:18 PM MST
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http://www.animatedsoftware.com/pumpglos/ram_pump.htm

http://www.lifewater.ca/ram_pump.htm

good places to start,

Ron
Adventure is just bad planning." -- Roald Amundsen
[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by Linda on Sat Oct 1st, 2005 at 01:08:42 PM MST
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CrashK6,
A ram pump was my first thought too, so I bought a book "All about Hydraulic Ram Pumps" and learned that I need 4 feet of head. Unfortunately the only way I can get 4 feet of head is to run a supply pipe up creek into my neighbor's property! I don't think he'd like that too much. So I'm going to have to persue the spiral pump or the "Archimedes" method. Thanks again
Linda
Linda
[ Parent ]

head needed (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by wdyasq on Sat Oct 1st, 2005 at 08:36:51 PM MST
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Linda,

I helped a friend play with ram pumps long enough ago I forget the numbers - But, it was well under one foot and we pumped over 20' - IIRC. The secret was a straight run on the 'ram line', a sweep to a vertical 'head' pipe and an output pipe to the tank. I doubt we were pumping 2% of the pipe flow but we had an unlimited flow and it ran 24/7.

Ron
Adventure is just bad planning." -- Roald Amundsen
[ Parent ]

Re: head needed (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by Linda on Sun Oct 2nd, 2005 at 02:21:29 PM MST
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Ron,
That sounds like a possibility, I think I follow it, but, it would help if I had a sketch, can you draw me one? One more question, I've been told that Ram pumps make a BIG BANG while they are operating, is that true?

Linda
[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by hiker (hiker.wild[at]yahoo[dot]com) on Wed Sep 28th, 2005 at 04:49:48 PM MST
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heres a simple fix--they used this idea for gold dredging years ago--[high pressure water hose]..or your dam idea should work if you tap the bottom of the dam where the high pressure water is..[you can make water travel uphill]..........
excuse the crude picture--never could draw.....

WILD IN ALASKA

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by tinker on Wed Sep 28th, 2005 at 07:39:25 PM MST
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http://www.ata.org.au/articles/65watwel.htm

[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by pyrocasto (pyrocasto at hotmail dot com) on Wed Sep 28th, 2005 at 09:47:22 PM MST
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What he said, I've got one and it works great. Any height you need, or any flow.

If you just need a couple of feet though maybe go with the first picture. Spiral pump if you need to go up a good few feet, or a good few hundred feet.

[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Flux on Thu Sep 29th, 2005 at 02:01:56 AM MST
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Several good ideas here. In your case I don't think the ram will do it with the head you can get.Pity as it is the easiest.

The 6" water level is a restriction but with care you could get by with the dipper wheel or the spiral pump. the other option is a paddle wheel driven Archimedes screw and may suit your low head better than a spiral which is better suited to greater head. If you start with a plastic drain pipe about 8" diameter and long enough to give your head at an angle of less than 45 deg you can wrap 3 or more plastic tubes around it and fix with cable ties.

You will need to keep your paddle wheel fairly well up so that you have enough torque. If you could run the paddle wheel in a gap in your log dam where velocity is higher it would give you more speed and output.

Flux

[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by Linda on Sat Oct 1st, 2005 at 01:18:13 PM MST
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Flux,
I'm intrigued by the "a paddle wheel driven Archimedes screw". What is this, How does it work, and where can I get more information and some designs? You guys are all great, what ideas!
Thanks so much,
Linda
[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by Flux on Sun Oct 2nd, 2005 at 09:59:59 AM MST
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This one is driven by a small dc motor fed from a windmill. You could do the same with a solar panel, but you could extend the shaft to the right and add a paddle wheel to drive it, we didn't have enough water to do it that way.

<BR<p> There is also a small ram supplying the same lake. This has a head of 2 ft and is about the minimum for totally reliable operation. I have run them at 18" head but you need a fair delivery head to keep them reliable at that. In your case with plenty of water, efficiency doesn't matter much and a ram may still be possible but if the head changes much with stream flow it may cause you problems. Without special valves and a lot of care 3 ft is desirable for a ram.

Flux

[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by Linda on Sun Oct 2nd, 2005 at 02:29:16 PM MST
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Flux,
Thanks so much for this info. Is the rod shown in the picture wound with a "hose"? Does the Archimedes Screw operate on the same principle as the Spiral Pump? Do you know of any websites that would provide deatiled information and design info. on this? Do you know if a Ram pump will make a lot of noise? I've been told it does.
Thanks again for the help.
Linda
[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by Flux on Mon Oct 3rd, 2005 at 01:35:53 AM MST
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Yes the central steel tube (industrial extractor pipe) is wound with hose used for pond pumps( cheap and easy to bend)

The spiral and screw pumps work on a slightly different idea. In the screw pump there is no compression. A quantity of water sits in the low point of the pipe and is "screwed" up to the top where it runs out. Each loop of pipe has a moving pool of water.

The spiral pump is intended to pump to a head and each successive spiral has a portion filled with air and the rest filled with water( like the screw) but each column of air is slightly compressed ( like a manometer) and the sum of the compressions gives you a head that it can pump to. If the head is too great the air will blow back.

You could probably make a single turn spiral pump that would deliver to shaft height without compression then it would be similar to a screw . You could fit several single turn spirals round the wheel. May be easier than a screw as the paddle axis is vertical.You may need 2 turns if your intake level is low.

The Hydraulic ram makes two sorts of noise, mechanical and hydraulic. If you follow the usual crude plans there will be a lot of clanging from the metal valves.

If you use rubber faced valves there is little mechanical noise. Hydraulic noise is caused by shock in the drive pipe when the waste valve closes. At high heads it is considerable and can't be avoided but at heads below 3 ft it is negligible. The ram I mentioned is almost silent, but we did bury the drive pipe as that is the main source of noise.

If you Google search the net for spiral pump or Wirtz pump ( the original inventor) you will find a few articles, mostly on the compressing spiral pump, a bit of emperical design but nothing detailed that I have found. Nothing useful on low head hydraulic rams and not a lot on the Archimedes screw except for large scale drainage with rotating screw in a stationary tube( not what you want).

Flux

[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by Flux on Mon Oct 3rd, 2005 at 10:32:00 AM MST
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Linda

Just found this on the Glokemann pump, its a compound ram, don't know why it should be better than a simple one. Another line of attack.

http://www.rpc.com.au/reindex.html?http://www.rpc.com.au/specials/glockemann/glock_special.html

Flux

[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#27)
by ghurd on Tue Oct 4th, 2005 at 12:21:15 AM MST
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Very interesting.

Looks to me like a basic hydraulic (floor jack) idea.
Not so much inertia driven.

Any thoughts?
G-

[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#29)
by Linda on Tue Oct 4th, 2005 at 07:32:18 PM MST
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Thanks Flux, I've begun reading up on the spiral pump, starting with the very good links provided by you and the others who've responded to my post. I'm working on a materials list and will be making a trip to the city soon. I'll report on what I'm doing and my successes/failures as I go. Thanks again
Linda
[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by Linda on Sat Oct 1st, 2005 at 01:14:12 PM MST
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Chris,
Which one do you have? Please explain more
Thanks,
Linda
[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by pyrocasto (pyrocasto at hotmail dot com) on Sat Oct 1st, 2005 at 09:22:27 PM MST
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I've got the spiral paddle wheel type. http://pyronet.50megs.com/RePower/pump.htm

Though not enough water flow for a paddle wheel so I put a water wheel with it. Mine has 100 ft of pipe and will pipe up to 30 or so feet vertical. Very easy, and very nice to have for the right situation, such as where nothing else pump wise will work. (like my place)

[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by Linda on Sun Oct 2nd, 2005 at 02:34:40 PM MST
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Chris,
Thanks so much, with all the great information you guys have I've become very optimistic that I can solve my problem. Last night I dug out and dusted off my old college physics book and now I have to dust dust off some old brain cells too. LOL I'll let you all know how things progress as I learn, build and test. This is great fun.
Linda
[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by Linda on Sat Oct 1st, 2005 at 01:11:45 PM MST
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Another good idea, but I think this will again put me in my neighbor's pasture! I've got to stay a little closer to home.
Linda
[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by MaxFlow on Thu Sep 29th, 2005 at 09:25:47 AM MST
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Another good link on the spiral pump, http://www.lurkertech.com/chris/eco/pump/tailer/
Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world. Archimedes

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by Nando (nando37-at-tx-dot-rr-dot-com Correct theanti-spam) on Sun Oct 2nd, 2005 at 02:02:22 PM MST
(User Info)

LINDA:

First tell me what is the head from the edge of your property to the end of your property including the length of the stream between both points.

Second: when measuring the head keep track of the head along the measurements to determine possible places for the Turbine placement.

Just with a few feet of head you may have enough to send water up the pond ( also I need height differentials and length of possible pipe.

I have done, what you want several times, with heads, as low as, 2 or 3 feet.

Regards

Nando

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by Linda on Sun Oct 2nd, 2005 at 02:44:20 PM MST
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Nando,
I'm headed outside right now to do some estimating and will provide you with more data. I don't have any sophisiticated equipment to do these measurments but I thought I'd rent a surveyors laser level tomorrow and get some accurate numbers. Also I am going to do a crude flow measurement today, so I'll be getting back with you on this. Thanks so much.
Linda
[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#30)
by Linda on Tue Oct 4th, 2005 at 09:10:25 PM MST
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Nando,
Well I wasn't able to get a laser but I did get more data for you and I've put it into this sketch. I hope this is readable. Thanks for your help.
Linda
[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#31)
by Linda on Tue Oct 4th, 2005 at 09:22:00 PM MST
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This was my first attempt at posting a pic, and it looks like I didn't work, so I hope that attaching thing link to my pic which did upload will make the pic accessable.

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4556/Creek_1.jpg
Linda
[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#34)
by Nando (nando37-at-tx-dot-rr-dot-com Correct theanti-spam) on Wed Oct 5th, 2005 at 04:07:48 PM MST
(User Info)

Linda:

You did not measure the height of the water from the enter point to the exiting point.

Assuming just 18 inches is a bit difficult to tell you what to do.

With a RAM PUMP you could raise the water the 4 feet necessary for the "over the Hill" travel. A pipe along the bed going up to the stream as much as possible for the Ram Pump to operate --- good workable system because you are just raising water around 4 feet or 1.7 PSI -- a 1:4 ratio would be a good arrangement

Even if the stream is windy, unless it shows that the water does travel very slow, it would be good to have the head to add to the 18 inches of the straight area.

Four ways

the Ram Pump [as above] or
small turbine to raise about 20 % of the available water into the pond or
a small water wheel, Poncelot type with containers filled at the bottom and about 4 feet diameter( high enough for the released water to pass the "hump" between the stream and the upper part of the pond area.
your failed initial sling pump -- which looks the best with corrections = which means that you need to tie the front and the back via heavy swivels to maintain the center of the sling pump in the water center line. -- this last one was done about 6 years ago for small village to bring water to a tank about 5 meter height, though the water head was 3 or 4 feet and a larger water volume. The water way needs to be modified for the sling pump around it to optimize the water movement.

The Spiral pump, mentioned by somebody else, seems the best and easiest arrangement for you, since it is mounted and fixed and just a few pipe loop turns are needed for the 4 feet raising, you will, as well, need to pipe the water to the wheel to get the necessary pressure to move the wheel

What are you mechanical abilities ?.

Regards & let me know

Nando

[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#36)
by Nando (nando37-at-tx-dot-rr-dot-com Correct theanti-spam) on Mon Oct 10th, 2005 at 07:24:53 PM MST
(User Info)

Linda:

Looking to your sketch, I see that there is a good possibility using a paddle wheel, type Poncelot with buckets to raise the water about 5 feet so you get enough slope for the water to pass the HUMP, all the way.

If you are interested in making the wheel, let me know to direct you, since you as well need to form the channel to obtain the best energy of wheel coupling to water energy and levels.

You will need to pipe the water to get the needed energy to drive the wheel with enough torque to raise the water 5 feet.

Also, you can use the spiral to raise the water attached to the wheel -- this would be the best arrangement, in this case about 4 to 4.5 feet radius will do the trick to have the exit pipe without any swivel valves.

So let me know and connect directly nando37-at-comcast-dot-net

Regards

Nando

[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#28)
by Kwazai (mswayze@truswood.com include otherpower in subject) on Tue Oct 4th, 2005 at 06:12:18 AM MST
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http://www.motherearthnews.com/library/1979_May_June/Mother_s_Hydraulic_Ram_Pump

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#33)
by GeorgeT (poorgeorge2001(nospam)@cableone.net) on Wed Oct 5th, 2005 at 03:32:25 PM MST
(User Info)

The level of the stream may change season to season so the means to pump water from a higher or lower head and flow rate is an issue. While there are many good solutions, mayhap simplicity is the issue at hand. While not efficient, a simple paddle wheel driving a small piston pump that intakes water through a flapper style valve would be sufficient. By paddle-wheel I mean a number of convex paddles attached to the end of a hub, with the hub attached to a short axle that operates like a windshield wiper motor (or bicycle peddle being driven by it's chain). Then the off-set is used to drive a small flapper-valve pump. Small! Your not after quantity with something like this, but constant operation instead.

For reference, we did this in Tennessee when I was a kid (76-81) useing wood and sheet-metal to get water closer to a new tobacco patch, raising water 16 feet from the level of the creek before sending it along the way in a 1/2 pipe.

Made of sufficiently light materials a paddle wheel will operate in shallow water. The pump; driven by the paddle wheel would have to be quite small to ensure operation in a low flow situation, but usually constant flow from a source is preferred to intermitant operation. I would start with a paddle about 12 inches by 12 inches in a stream such as you describe. Attach the paddles to a series of spokes around the driven axle. 8 to 12 paddles seemed to be the number we used on the farm.

If your pump stalls the paddle-wheel and you can't get anymore water on the paddles, then you need to start again with a smaller pump.

The simple pump I am referring to is a couple pieces of pvc, one sliding inside another. The inner piece would have a flapper valve at the base to cycle water inside when it is drawn back by the paddle-wheel. Then as it is pushed in the other direction the flapper closes and the water is pushed along the pipe. The two pieces do need to be a loose fit and should move freely making a little sanding necessary on the inner pvc pipe a times. It functions the same as an old fashioned bicycle pump. The entire pumping affair is submerged.

As the idea is to get water up and over the hump so to speak, I would pump up to a "slew" that feeds something small. A typical garden hose in size would be good for testing and using a slew (box) would allow for a place to filter and remove debris before it gets a chance to clog up the works. The shorter the distance to the slew, the better.

Alternate pump - While I doubt the type pump that is driven by a drill (available at Lowes, Home Depot, etc) would work efficiently driven by the paddle wheel such as I am speaking of, it may work reasonably well if it were completely submerged.

If I have made this terribly complex please let me know and I will try to draw it out. Good luck.

GeorgeT
Lead, Follow or get the hell out of the way!

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#38)
by Linda on Mon Oct 10th, 2005 at 08:55:45 PM MST
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GeorgeT,
This sounds interesting, but I don't understand how the "pump" works, can you draw a sketch? It eliminates the need for a rotary fitting, which as you can read in my post to MaxFlow is my big hang up right now. And I apologize for the "oversized" pics that I posted! my mistake.

Linda
[ Parent ]

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#39)
by Linda on Mon Oct 10th, 2005 at 09:10:13 PM MST
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Sorry everyone! I didn't expect these to be so BIG. I went in and deleted these 2 pics from my uploaded file, but it still won't make these big things go away! Does anyone know if this can be fixed? I'm just not savvy enough. From now on I'll just attach the link to my pictures. Sorry again for messing up the format for this posting.
Linda

Re: I need a "lift" and your help (3.00 / 0) (#40)
by MaxFlow on Tue Oct 11th, 2005 at 08:43:56 AM MST
(User Info)

Awhile back I drew up a picture expanding on someone elses design, Although this works on the same principle as a spiral-archemedes pump, it might be easier for you to build this one, over time it has lost some picture quality, because it was done on windows paint.
Anyways he had drawn it up with a crank handle, and I thought that it would be interresting to use a wheel on it, the way it works is the wheel is firmly secured into the stream bed or bank, at the point where the archemedes coil reaches the shaft of the wheel, it has a universal like a socketset one welded between them, so although both shafts are offset it should rotate without much friction.
I'm having some trouble with uploading picture again.
Linda, if it doesn't show up,send me your email address to Torchlithill@yahoo.com, and I'll try to get it to you that way.

Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world. Archimedes
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I need a "lift" and your help | 38 comments (38 topical, 0 editorial)

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