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trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine
By spinner, Section Mechanical Posted on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 03:31:08 PM MST
lots of mistaken assumptions

its a 9/12 with wedge neos similar to Eds
Prob1 too many turns ( I think ) about 170t of 14 wire 'cause, if I remember correctly, the first rule of thumb was making each coil take up all the space it had room for.
the center of each coil is the size and shape of the magnet.
coils and mags were placed via a degree wheel.
Prob2 part of this experiment was to build a machine without a poured stator ( wanted it to run cooler in high winds and make replacement of any single coil possible in case of failure of that coil. What I have discovered is that after a year outside I cannot keep the two stator sections true due to the fact that they are 1/4" composite material (pressed wood, for which no amount of waterproofing suffices.
airgaps top and bottom are about two playing cards thick.
coils are about 1" thick.
after a couple of days++ of working on it I see 10-12v per phase ( no load) with a vigorous hand spin but, as you would probably expect the amperage leaves much to be desired when I hook it up to a known Resistor...
How I will finally cure the stator problem is still kinda iffy..so far have just made lots of scrap *hehe.
my other question is: does it make sense to you to make new coils: 3in hand, 50t. #21 or #24 wire? is the move in the right direction? never wound in-hand before, but I do understand the method, from studying posts.
looking input
thanx
spinner

trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine | 24 comments (24 topical)

Re: trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by ghurd on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 09:06:13 AM MST

Prob1. To take up all the usable space is good, but the turns should be determined already, the usable space and number of turns should determine the wire gauge.
The bigger the wire, the less the resistance, and the more the amps.

Prob2. If the stator and coils are well built, the poured stator will protect everything. Meaning less chance of needing to replace a coil or resolder connections.

I make a lot of scrap too.
G-
Ghurd.info

Re: trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Flux on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 09:25:54 AM MST

Need more information, disc size magnet size and thickness etc.

If the magnets are really like Ed's then coils 1" thick are crazy but if magnets are thicker it may be ok.

If it has been outside for a year has it ever worked or you a born optimist.

If you can spin it by hand up to 12v it can't be that bad. Why are you loading it with a resistor that is most likely confusing you, the current will be determined by the resistor. I am not sure if the 12v is ac or dc, cant see your post, but rectify it and try it into a battery before you do anything else.

Don't pick random numbers out of the air for turns, you will never get there. Let's have some details, size of prop actual or intended and we can sort it out but forget making an un potted stator, I bet your 1" is full of wood not wire.

Flux

[ Parent ]

Re: trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by spinner on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 10:38:38 AM MST

Flux...the thickness of each field coil is 1" ( wire + the thin outside wrapping and they are tightly wrapped)(which may not be true for me?)
the supporting pieces are 1/4" material...the magnets pass within a space of two playing cards thickness beyond the support material..hope this clarifys a bit.
the mags are the same dimensions as Eds.
crazy? most probably so, tho, at the time I thought I was headed in the right direction as to wire size and number of turns...

prop size? I use a dual helix w/ chain drive ( see diary )

actually I didn't realize that I was picking #s out of the air; it was simply my way of converting what does not work too well ( my present coils ) into "inhand" wound coils consisting of 3 strands @ 50 turns each which seemed appropriate when I was sitting here doodling with combinations..

I know that the faster I spin the more voltage I get
but, when I get th "x" voltage I have little amperage to do work with...cannot drive heaters well eneough to get anything useable ( I have made several sizes and driven them with quite a wide range of voltage outputs from my genny )

Note: its 10-12 volts on each phase at a hard hand spin

I agree poured stator seems by all accounts to be the only practical way to go; especially now *hehe after my idea failed.

my reason for posting to the board is the belief that folks on the board have the ablility to help when I goof? (better yet, sometimes..BEfore I goof!)

[ Parent ]

Re: trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Flux on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 11:06:19 AM MST

I think I am more confused. Coils an inch thick, does that mean your magnet discs are an inch apart or an inch plus the supporting thing. If magnets are same size as Ed's then am I right in thinking that they are 3/16 thick.

You have 12 magnets but you don't give disc diameter.

Do I understand correctly that you are trying for direct heating, if so I have no idea of the capability of your helix prop but I really can't imagine that it will ever produce worthwhile heat unless it is enormous.

I sometimes wonder about these direct heating projects, 200W of heat will probably boil a cup of water in a finite time but in terms of space heating it comes to nothing. even in a big tank of water it would get lost. Even a fluctuating nominal 1kW of wind power is not going to heat a reasonable sized room to useful temperature.

Can you give more details. What power do you expect from your prop and in what wind speed and what you are trying to do with the power.

If it is direct heating then fiddling with windings will make no more difference than changing heater resistance which you seem to have tried.

There will be folks here who can help but you must supply basic information, unless stated otherwise 12v would be taken as a 12v battery charging system.

Flux

[ Parent ]

Re: trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by spinner on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 05:51:26 PM MST

flux
please accept my apology for not making my post(s) clear/concise as they Should have been....guess I post like I build generators!

the mags are the same, or very close to, measurement wise, Eds mags
the disks are 11 inch, not sure which brand of auto they came from.
friend of mine spun 'em on his lathe ( trade for firewood ) and left me a 1/16" shoulder along the outside of each ring to butt the mags against. they are Gorilla glued to the disks without any thing being poured over 'em.

after testing I sorta thought that heating was not my best ever idea...it came about because I came accross some old heater boxes..only had to salvage and reuse their innards..also, I do not have a battery bank and Y- delta changeover stuff.( never learned how to make solid state boards, etc.)
Will probably go for a 12v charging sys now and let the batteries come as they may.

as to the helix vs a prop...helix is my choice because of where I live and the wind or erratic lack of it.

[ Parent ]

Re: trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Flux on Wed Jan 11, 2006 at 01:39:11 AM MST

Spinner
I think your comment about the erratic lack of wind answers a lot of your question.

I can see why you chose to go for heat, batteries are a pain, but most people forget that a few hundred watts of high grade electricity can do a lot with lights, radio ,TV and even with water pumping but the same power as low grade heat does very little.

If you change to battery charging I think you will have more luck. Try it as it is first with rectifiers into a battery and see what wind speed you need for cut in. For a HAWT hand speed gives a useful guide but with your VAWT and gearing I have no idea what wind speed that equates to.

You need to get those magnets closer together and you will have to change the number of turns to suit. When you know how many turns you need you will then be able to decide how many strands of #14 in hand will fill your winding space.

If your cut in speed is somewhere near now that will give you some guide and you may even find that it works as it is into a battery.
Flux

[ Parent ]

Re: trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by spinner on Wed Jan 11, 2006 at 06:10:58 AM MST

Flux;
thanks for the patience and helpful suggestions...
just finished my morning coffee and am about to begin tearing down/starting over...
have reached no conclusion at this point in time as to knocking all the magnets off my disks and doing that over 'cause I'm not able to see how their placement is wrong since
they were placed via a degree wheel
(not disputing your statement just ain't gettin' my head around how that could be wrong TOO)
spinner

[ Parent ]

Re: trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by Flux on Wed Jan 11, 2006 at 07:12:50 AM MST

I think we have a misunderstanding, I have never said that your magnet placing is wrong. I assume that if you say your coils are an inch thick that you must have more than an inch between the magnet rotors, that is the bit that I am bothered about.

If I have misunderstood what you mean by coil thickness then we may not be worrying about the same thing.

The gap between magnets rotors should not be significantly more than 2 magnet thicknesses and unless I am mistaken then that is about 3/8". you will be ok at 1/2" but if you have an inch then most of your flux will leak between poles rather than cross the gap.

You say you made the holes in the coils the size of the magnets, that's fine and as it should be. you say you made your coils so that they touch, again fine that's the best that you can do. If by 1" thick you are refering to what everyone lese calls the leg with them I am sorry I misunderstood but to me thickness means the dimension that is keeping the magnet rotors apart ( not distance between magnets on a rotor if that is also causng confusion).

Ed's site should point you in the right direction if you are still in doubt.
Flux

[ Parent ]

Re: trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by spinner on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 03:13:50 PM MST

flux
actually the magnet spacing was off how I cann't begin to figure out, since we scribbed lines off a degree wheel...in any case, they ARE right now.
I am at the point where I figure this project is a repository for ?????? anyway, so nothin' much suprises me
we are on the page with the total gap between magnets too...iffn' I'da explained things more lucidly you wouldn't have had to clairfy

now, I am considering whether or not I otta replace the steel threaded rod that ties the disks to one another and the bottom bearing with stainless threaded rod..there definitly is some pull from them as they pass by the coils..not sure if it is eneough to warrant replacement or not

spinner

[ Parent ]

Re: trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by electrondady1 on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 10:58:24 AM MST

hey spinner, i'd like to see a video posted of that duble helix creature spinning. it would be nice to see your meter pegged too. you can reuse the copper if you need to.just remove the coils from the wood then heat them up in a toster oven. try 225 deg. till the resin gets plyable. and then unravel them. put a turn around a round stick like a broom handle and take any kinks out. windstuff ed knows best what goes with his mags and has always been helpful to me (thanks ed!) i checked out your old posts and files. i'm just a novice builder but i think your coils are way too thick. requireing your mags to be too far apart. us vawt guys gotta stick together , good luck!

[ Parent ]

Re: trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by spinner on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 06:03:30 PM MST

actually there is nada to melt...
I covered my coils with electrical tape via a homemade bobbin, then dipped the outer (finished coil) with varnish ( if i remember right ) to seal em.
come spring, when the new tower thingy goes up, I shall prevail upon one of the kids to get a video of it with their new fancy cell phones
vawts rock
*heheh
spinner

[ Parent ]

Re: trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by windstuffnow on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 10:53:02 AM MST

Spinner,
You can download the instructions for making the stator from http://www.windstuffnow.com/turbine%20kit.pdf which gives you the dimensions of the coil former and all the details for wiring, pouring etc. It works very well. The coils in the plans were designed for 12 volt charging for 24 volts use #16 wire with 80 turns and with 48 volt use #18 wire with 160 turns. The 48 volt version has made 450 watts in a 19 mph wind using a 7ft prop.

.
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed

Re: trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Flux on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 11:42:13 AM MST

I have looked at your diary and it gives me a bit more of an idea, it looks as though you have brake discs so perhaps they are about 12".
I can't get much idea of the turbine rotor dimensions but it doesn't look very big to do any heating but there might be something useful in a 60 mph wind.

Can you give some idea of actual alternator speed. You will have to bring the gap between those magnets below 1/2" to get much out and even then I don't see it as being a heating size alternator.

I doubt that your vertical rotor with its gearing will equal Ed's 7 ft prop and he didn't have an inch between magnets.
Flux

[ Parent ]

Re: trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by spinner on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 05:57:39 PM MST

Ed
thanks for the link..ya sure build lots better lookin' stuff than I do!
( annnnndddddddd yours work too )
*hehe I got a lotta used #14 to play with.
can't help but wonder if a two in hand/three in hand like I mentioned earlier would work with my helix, sans gearing...
thanx
spinner

[ Parent ]

Re: trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by spinner on Wed Jan 11, 2006 at 06:19:08 AM MST

Ed
looks like I may have made a BIG error (re your page 9)
I will have to check again as I tear the machine down this morning, BUT from what I remember, I centered each magnet on the scribed line for it on each disk instead of offsetting on one side of the line or the other as you describe
I must have missed something somewhere along the way (again)
thanx
spinner

[ Parent ]

Re: trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by Shadow on Thu Jan 12, 2006 at 10:52:01 AM MST

This shouldnt matter. They should still be at 30 degrees if they are on the line,to the right side of the line or left side of the line, as long as they are all the same.I center my magnet right down the middle of the 30 degree line.

[ Parent ]

Re: trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by windstuffnow on Thu Jan 12, 2006 at 11:51:35 AM MST

As long as their lined up with each other on each disc and attracting to each other then it's correct. We all tend to use different roads to get to the same place.

.
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]

Re: trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by spinner on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 08:03:45 AM MST

see your point, ed
I think I translate what I read here literally far too often..then mix all the facts up in my head till : DUH!

I hand spun around (150-200 rpm I 'spect) the generator a few moments ago with a 41T #14 coil suspended over a single disk of mags;

showing around 1/2 volt ac; w/narrow air gap.......would that be in the ball park for a single coil?
thanx
spinner

[ Parent ]

Re: trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by windstuffnow on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 08:39:05 AM MST

I'm not sure about the single rotor testing a coil, but I'm guessing with the low flux penetration that's probably about right. With both rotors in place it should be around 2.5 volt for a single coil at 190 rpm.
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]

Re: trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by spinner on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 03:03:13 PM MST

Hiya ED
thanks for the single coil #s..have a few coils left to wind, then
*sigh I gotta pour a stator *shudder
always have experimented with multi piece stator assemblies to this point in time so we'll see what happens.
?, do ya think that I may expect to come up a lil short of that output # 'cause of my use of a brake drum instead of a disk ( difference in mass?) I have seen some posts about other machines in progress that lead me to believe the possibility exists
just curious is all
spinner

[ Parent ]

Re: trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by Jerry on Wed Jan 11, 2006 at 09:49:59 PM MST

Hey Ed?

How many turns and what Ga. for 120 volts? Got a littel high volt project idea.

Thanks. JK TAS Jerry

Airheads Page

[ Parent ]

Re: trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by spinner on Thu Jan 12, 2006 at 06:32:52 AM MST

Jerry

I am gonna have to retract the voltage statement because I discovered today that my Old meter has become/is a flake (possessed?) I am not sure at what point in time it begain to become demonized so I don't know when readings became of little worth.
When I got readings in the 90-100v range (no load) each coil had 170 turns (approx) #14 and the genny was being spun in the 1,000+ rpm range ...the reading was AC voltage accross a phase
as you may have gathered the machine is being TOTally redone now because I also had made lots of stupid "engineering" errors along the way.

The meter now lives in the trashcan!

Apologies to all for not posting this retraction sooner, simply did not think of it.
spinner

[ Parent ]

Re: trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by ghurd on Thu Jan 12, 2006 at 07:32:53 AM MST

Save the meter! Change the battery!
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]

Re: trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by windstuffnow on Thu Jan 12, 2006 at 08:11:05 AM MST

I've never attempted to get that high of voltage from a turbine. Although, I have worked out a design to charge a 144 volt battery bank. I'm suspecting your looking at charging your 120v bank in your truck.

You would need about 400 turns on a coil and my guess is #20 or #22 wire to get it to fit in the 8 inch base. It might be better to go with a larger diameter, increase the poles to help make the coils smaller and use larger wire.

You always seem to be one step ahead of me... your elecTruck is done... mine isn't... oops your actually 2 steps ahead of me... your working on the wind charging system...

.
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]

trying to rejuvinate a so-so 9/12 machine | 24 comments (24 topical)

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