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Battery Desulphating Experiments


By zubbly, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Fri Oct 06, 2006 at 08:06:28 PM MST
Looks Promising So Far

hey guys!

with a little bit of discussion lately on desulphating batterys, i thought i would look into it a bit more as i am on the look out for some cheap sources for batterys.

what caught my attention was the quicky made xformer-bridge rectifier-capacitor type charger that Jerry is using.

well into the junk shed and dig out some parts :)  i pulled out an old motor base, a 3 phase bridge rectifier, a 350va 220 volt isolation xformer, and 3 60MFD 370 volt capacitors.  i will only be applying 120 volt to the xformer though.

this is what i threw together


this year i had to replace my driving lawn mower battery. it was a cheap wallymart $18 battery. it was made in 2004, so didn't last too long. i had tried charging it in the spring a few times with a 10 amp battery charger and also a newer shumaker battery charger.  result was after sitting for 1/2 hour, it didn't even have the power to engage the solenoid on the starter. i tossed it beside the shed and left it there all year so far. i decided to try and charge that battery on the new home made charger. i took of the battery caps and found it full of water , right to the top. all the rain this year seemed to seep into the vents.  no idea how diluted the acid is now. my cheap hydrometer has 4 balls in it, with each ball representing 25% of full charge.  kinda crude, but good enough to have an idea of what the charge is in the battery. all cells had 2 balls floating, one cell had 1 ball floating (not good).

i first had 180 MFD of caps connected to the charger. it drew just a little over 10 amps. one of the cells would not bubble even after a 1/2 hour of charging. the xformer was getting quite hot, so i reduced the capacitor to just 60 MFD. with just the one capacitor, it draws about 2.5-2.6 amp.  afew hours after, that one cell that would not bubble,  started to bubble.  i ran it till 7PM last night and found by then that all cells were bubbling equaly. i now had 3 balls floating in each cell and the 4th ball was just starting to rise. i tested the voltage this morning after sitting outside all night and it was 12.6 volt.  i put it back on the charger for another 4 hours, let it rest for 2 hours. i then took a short piece of nichrome wire and shorted the 2 terminals. it got hot within seconds and could burn tissue paper to the touch.  i then measured voltage and found it to be 12.8 volt.  very encouraging and i shall see what it measures tomorrow morning. each cell now has all 4 balls floating in the hydrometer.

this is the battery


2 years ago i was given a 12 volt auto battery. it is one of those capless ones they vent with a hose running to outside of car. it was no good then and i had tried to charge it without success.  i just used it as a load cell when testing out a genny. it was frozen over the winter also and left outside.  case never cracked though.

there was no way to see inside, so i took a hack saw and cut off 1/2 the top of the battery.  2 cells were very low, but the plates were not exposed. none of the balls would float in the hydrometer. the acid was now full of plastic saw dust from me cutting the top off. i poured it all into a bucket and strained it through an old towel. it removed most of the saw dust and i poured it back into the battery.

here is the battery


picture of just 2 cells


i wanted a little more charge from the charger, so i connected up 2 microwave xformers like Jerry had just spoke of in a recent diary. with the 180 MFD of capacitors, it put out 10 amp of charge current. after 1/2 hour of running, i found the primary coil in the output xformer was getting very hot. i reduced the capacitors to 120 mfd and the current now was 6 amp.



for the first 1/2 hour, all cells except 2 were bubbling very hard. the first 2 closest to the negative post were basically doing nothing. none of the balls in the hydrometer were floating at all. that is when i reduced the capacitors.

if the xformer seems to stay not quite as hot as it was, i am going to leave it on all night.  it sits outside on the picnic table. the battery is kind of useless now with the top cut off, but i wanted a good look inside and want to see what is going on as i attempt to charge/desulphate/rejuvinate this battery.  LOL!  its all in fun.

hope you enjoyed the post and will let you know what happens with this battery.

zubbly

Battery Desulphating Experiments | 13 comments (13 topical)

Re: Battery Desulphating Experiments (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Devo on Fri Oct 06, 2006 at 02:53:56 PM MST

Great Post Zubbly, I was going to try to buy a desulfator but it looks like I'll have to break down & with my limited knowledge try to build one-lol.

The only capacitors I have lying around are the ones from the sides of those little 1/2 hp 120 volt AC motors, these are not the right kind are they?

I do have a few transformers around , a couple of bigger ones & some out of micro waves etc.

At anyrate thanks for you (& Jerry) sharing you're experience's.

Devin



Re: Battery Desulphating Experiments (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Opera House on Fri Oct 06, 2006 at 05:35:43 PM MST

How about a schematic, I can't figure what you ar doing from the pictures.  Are the caps in series with the secondary? How does that work with the microwave transformer?  Are you using a half wave voltage doubler to get pulses?



Re: Battery Desulphating Experiments (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by dinges on Fri Oct 06, 2006 at 05:39:49 PM MST

I think this is the design he's using:

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/231/pulsecrg.GIF

[ Parent ]



Re: Battery Desulphating Experiments (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Fri Oct 06, 2006 at 06:49:41 PM MST

Plus back-to-back microwave power transformers between it and the line as a cheap way to get an isolation transformer.

line -> first xfmr primary
first xfmr secondary -> second xfmr "secondary"
second xfmr "primary" -> circuit above

[ Parent ]



Re: Battery Desulphating Experiments (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by RobC on Fri Oct 06, 2006 at 08:21:43 PM MST

In case some of you have no experince with microwave transformers be warned the output voltage on the high voltage secondary side will kill you with no second chances If you make a mistake!!! I took my transformer apart and DISCARDED!  the secondary and replaced it with part of a primary out of an almost identical unit. My electrically isolated output voltage is now 62 volts. When I say part of primary it means I removed 50% of winding. Now to go work on some batteries. RobC



Re: Battery Desulphating Experiments (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by dinges on Sat Oct 07, 2006 at 03:48:34 AM MST

Good advice. 2000V @100mA is Lethal, with a capital 'L'.

Removing the high voltage winding and replacing it with a custom low-voltage winding makes the thing not only safer, but possible to use for other applications as well. (I still have the plan in my mind to build a spotwelder with one of those modified microwave transformers)

[ Parent ]



Re: Battery Desulphating Experiments (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by AbyssUnderground on Sat Oct 07, 2006 at 05:44:02 AM MST

2000v at 5mA can be lethal, let alone 100mA.

http://www.repowered.co.uk - My Renewable Energy site.
msn[at]m3ezw.co.uk - my msn if you want a chat.
[ Parent ]


Re: Battery Desulphating Experiments (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by zubbly on Sat Oct 07, 2006 at 07:40:55 AM MST

hey Dinges,

i should have mentioned about the high voltage secondary being very deadly. (oops)

just a note- if you do have 2 microwave xformers, you can take them apart, and re-assemble one unit with the primary from both.  this makes a perfect isolation xformer.  120 volt in, 120 volt out.

zubbly

[ Parent ]



Re: Battery Desulphating Experiments (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by The Crazy Noob on Sat Oct 07, 2006 at 09:42:05 AM MST

I juist built the other type of "Jerry pulser" with the 555-timer circuit. You can find a link here: http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/5232/jerry_charger.jpg

I read a pdf from homepower (link: http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/5232/desulfator.pdf ) and they say something about putting a coil in the circuit to make the current flow back and forth between the coil and battery. This way you would "pluck the string" of the internal resonant ferquenty of the battery which would be 2 to 6 MHz.

I myself built only the jerry pulser without any coils but i'm running it at about 700Hz instead of the 50 or 60Hz you will be getting with the circuit of the poster (rectifier + cap). Would there be any advantage in pulsing the battery at 700Hz instead of 50Hz or doens't it realy matter scince 700Hz is still a long way away from 2 to 6MHz?

By the way: I'm testing the pulser on some lead acid gell batteries that were abused in a UPS. No luck so far because I think most of them are internally shorted (they get real hot, real fast). I have some luck on some 6V gell batteries from a UPS.
I guess the circuit only works well on a normal flooded lead acid battery.

---
"If the honey bee goes extinct, man would have no more than four years to live." -- Not A. Einstein, nevertheless something to think about!



Re: Battery Desulphating Experiments (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Opera House on Sat Oct 07, 2006 at 12:35:07 PM MST

I just don't see how this transformer capacitor circuit is much different than an ordinary battery chargeer except that it is higher voltage.  The caps function as load resistors that don't heat up.  With a cap input half wave voltage doubler at least you would get some pulses os a slow rise time.

[ Parent ]


Re: Battery Desulphating Experiments (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by JW on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 03:22:33 PM MST

Hi Zubbly,

 Really nice write-up. Seems you have the electricale :) part of de-sulfating down with your process.

    What I could contribute to this discussion is the electrolite/chemical aspect. I have a link that I stumbled across, just the other night. I was doing some un-related research, on a type of phosphoric battery that im working with at the R@D level. Anyway here's the link, now, im not sure, if there using a special electrolite with phosphoric acid added in small amounts to regular electrolite. Then dumping the modified electrolite to the next battery to be done(de-sulfated) or what. Seems after the sulfation has be treated on an existing battery, its filled again with standard electrolite,for use.

http://www.aba-brno.cz/aba2003/abstracts/03-Rus.pdf

JW

[ Parent ]



Re: Battery Desulphating Experiments (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by Jerry on Tue Oct 10, 2006 at 09:40:41 PM MST

Hi Opera House.

I'm not sure how the cap desulphator works. But I think its some what simular to capacitor ignition.

First a cap is charged up to a high voltage and then its dischargerd across a load.

Either an ignition coil or in this case a battery. I know these 2 ciurcuts are very diferant but the cap discharging is very simular.

Anyone who has charged up a cap and then discharged it will remember the big bang.

That big, snap bang , pop was a bunch of energy releassed very fast. Fast enough if repeated at a steady rate it could posably nock some sulphated scale of a battery plate.

Keep in mind that the cap is charged to around 170 vdc, then the ac polarity changes and its discharged at the same rate in the other polarity.

Its kinda like taking the rug outside and beatting with a baseball batt. It knocks a lot of stuf loose.

Charge a motor cap up with a diode then once disconected from power short it out with your wrorste screwdriver. You'll see the pulse power we're dealling with here. Be very carefull here this could be a shocking expirience.

Motor run caps only.

Zubbly thanks for duplicateing what I've allready done. It does work very well.

The use of 2 microwave primaries on 1 transformer is a good idea. I was going to do that in the beginning but not enough time.

It will be way more eficient then the 2 transformers back to back. You'd only have the insertion loss of one transformer.

A did try a microwave transformer as an audio output transformer in a single ended tube type amplifier. I remove the small chunks of lamination between the 2 coils and preformance was better.

I would sugjest the same mod as an isolation trans former. But move the laminations to one end or the other rather than between the 2 coils.

                     JK TAS Jerry

Airheads Page


[ Parent ]



Re: Battery Desulphating Experiments (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by JW on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 07:53:31 PM MST

I just wanted to add this link to this story while im still thinking about it.

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/10/11/212323/79

 In the first link I posted, in my previous comment to this story, desulfating the battery used an phosphoic acid additive. In that link, its questioned using the additive, whether or not a slow charge from a regular batt charger or a desulfator charger work better trying to recover a sulfated battery. It was concluded that there was do difference using the additive. But im not sure about the ETDA stuff. I guess if you used no additive a de-sulfating charger would have to be better. But... if it makes no difference, then id use a desulfator-charger if I was trying to recover them and using additives.

HAPPY HALLOWEEN :)

jw  

[ Parent ]



Battery Desulphating Experiments | 13 comments (13 topical)
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