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AC vs DC


By badmoonryzn, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:09:54 AM MST
What is the best way to run your juice down the lines

I am somewhat confused about running the rectified DC or run the AC to the house where the battery box is kept in a heated shop. The run will be 50 to 60 yards from the windmill, 30 feet from the solar and 20 yards from the water. I know when Tulsa and GE beat out ol' Edison and the boys from Menlo Park with their AC. Working with AC was much better than DC transmission lines. OK then, Why has Bonneville gone to DC transmission lines from up here in the north west to the power hungry southern California?
We pay out the nose for our power now that we built three nukes and started three more, but forgot to start the damn things before we sold rights to the power for 50 years. Due to environmental whackos we never even used the ones that were finished, but we pissed away rights to the power we do make with hydro and have to but it back at triple the price we sold it for so we can have energy. I don't remember voting for this however I have to pay for the morons who created this project called WHOOPS! Billion and billions were wasted and the consumer gets to pay for the mistake. Kill the morons! Oh well, got off on a tangent, but this is why I need to subsidise my power otherwise I won't be able to have any if it goes up much more in the future.
Anyway I am curious why the large state-to-state lines are going to DC, does anyone know why? I doubt I will loose much in my application regardless of what way I go, however I will have to check the loss when I finish. I will start with AC into the house and rectify it at the battery box/shed that will contain the controllers for all of the devices plus the inverter.

Regards,
Badmoonryzn

AC vs DC | 21 comments (21 topical)

Re: AC vs DC (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Opera House on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 01:23:38 AM MST

The peak voltage of AC is 1.4 times the DC equivelant for the same power.  DC basically allows them to to put 50% more power on the existing lines.  So basically, it is done because of the limits of insulators.  On a historic note, the first high voltage line in the US was in Teluride, CO and just a couple miles. They probably thought they could use it for a ski lift if things didn't work out. The transmission line would light up at night.  The solution was to use thicker wire to reduce the charge density and eliminate corona.  Even at 60Hz the inductance and capacitance of a long line is a problem.  I remember 20 years ago they installed a DC line in Japan.  That solved the problem of sharing power when half the country being 50Hz and the other half 50Hz.



Re: AC vs DC (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Flux on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 01:43:21 AM MST

The reasons for power companies using ac or dc are very different from considerations affecting your choice at domestic level.

If you are charging batteries without any fancy transformers or other considerations you can use less copper for the same loss if you run dc.

The other factors may weigh against it. I prefer to run ac to the rectifier and have it somewhere easy to get at. If that is in the battery shed then it is probably better to run 3 ac leads.

If it is convenient to have the rectifier at the base of the tower then run 3 ac to the rectifier and 2 dc to the battery.

If other considerations mean having the rectifier up the tower then dc is the obvious choice.

In your case the issue will probably be decided by the relative positions of the solar and hydro. If wind goes direct to battery shed I would run 3 cables. If it is more convenient you may wish to mount the rectifier near the solar or hydro and run a common dc cable. but if you do it that way, think about the possibility of voltage feed backs when fuses blow and choose fuse ratings to prevent this.
Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: AC vs DC (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by badmoonryzn on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 03:25:39 AM MST

I have always enjoyed electronics and electricity, however I have been saddened by the ways the consumer gets smoke blown up their rear. Just what does input power have to do with the speaker rating??? Why this stereo has 300 watts of input power??? COOL! How about the power rating of stereo amps: watts were somewhat erroneous in the stereo sales. What is P.E.P in rating a stereos output power????? I thought P.E.P. was a single side band power rating for RF??? Just what are digital speakers???? How can an analogue reproduction device magically turn digital??? What is digital ready????  Why do they rate 12 volt power amps at 1200 watts, you can't get 1200 watts with any 12 volt car systems on my calculator??? Heavens the power leads would be three inches??? I like the simple RMS rating at least it made sense. I really like the monster wires my son paid 200 bucks for they looked to be about 4 gauge. LOL I showed him the wires going through the cone on his speakers and they may have been 20 gauge. Why would one need wire twenty five times larger than the wires in the cone and the voice coil wires were even smaller. He turned kind of red and said he could have saved 500 bucks on all of the crap he bought that looked cool but really was a waist of money. I could go on, but why. We have all seen this and I see it so much in the rating of allot of gennys and solar panels sold in the conventional consumer venue. I am so glad to find this site where the truth and logic rules!

Thanks you all!

Dennis
Badmoonryzn

I just wanna have some fun, maybe learn something new every day and make some friends in the process.
[ Parent ]



Re: AC vs DC (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Flux on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 04:19:45 AM MST

A bit off topic but I agree with you. Watts are watts.

Rms volts x rms amps are WATTS. Rms watts are something odd.

Peak amps x peak volts are 2 watts.

Just marketing to produce big numbers.

While we accept such crap they will still push it.
Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: AC vs DC (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Opera House on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 04:11:53 PM MST

"power amps at 1200 watts, you can't get 1200 watts with any 12 volt car systems on my calculator"

You are ignoring that these amps have built in inverters.   Maybe not the power they state, but these can produce a lot of power.

[ Parent ]



Re: AC vs DC (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by badmoonryzn on Thu Nov 16, 2006 at 09:45:59 PM MST

Ok, lets bump up the voltage with an inverter. We will start with a standard 12-volt battery AH rating of 75ah. Lets pretend everything runs at 100 percent efficiency. If I recall volts times' amps equals watts, so lets take a 1200 watt amp, we will bump up the voltage to 110 on the inverter and we need to feed the inverter x amount of amps? The current draw on the battery with an inverter will be? And the standard alternator puts out 45 to 60 amps at 12 volts, Again how do we get 1200 watts from a 12 volt car system? I can't get there? my head hurts!

Stumped badmoon ;-)

I just wanna have some fun, maybe learn something new every day and make some friends in the process.
[ Parent ]



Re: AC vs DC (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by 12AX7 on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 12:05:04 AM MST

AC/DC or it's not what's a watt, better said..  it's not watt you have, it's how it get's er done.

It's your thread so I'll run with it.

It's been a number of years..  old age is creeping all over. Up stairs too.

RMS..   P-P   IPP IHF  PEP..  PEP  Now that one I don't recall being used in the HI FI world.   THere was a time when everyone had their own power ratings.

Peak to Peak.  When dealing with a Frequency easy to understand.  IPP Instantaneous Peak Power,  I can't say I recall anyone who could tell me "just how Instantaneous" it was suppose to be, IPP also fails to define what kinda peak is being measured.

IHF,   damn.  not sure but I'm thinking it was the "Institue of High Fidelity"
and heck if I recall how/watt they were doing.

PEP if I recall (dusting off my 2nd class ticket)  was Peak Envolope Power,   and agrees that it was a SSB term.    I've not "YET" seen PEP used in audio but (some cob webs just won't let loose)  Maybe some PEP used in the early Sony Beta and VHS recorders.  perhaps  not used to measure power but gain?

Monster cable,  I'll not defend.   But the concept, there's plenty of arguments to support it'.
The interconnects and speaker wire used can and does make a BIG difference in just about any system of "quality".   Yes, most any speakers voice coil can be 1/100th to 1/1000th the size of the speaker wire feeding it.  
When talking of Power here most everyone is talking ac/dc   (no not the black and white long tounged rockers)
either it's an "changing" ac frequency or something with out any frequency at all.
Getting back to Peak to Peak,  it was measured at a "frequency"  RMS also a frequency.
the same with the rest of them.
And push-pulling this back to Stereo..  just how many times do we listen to a frequency?
The only frequency I've listen to in awhile... is that damn 60cps hum I hear when my caps start to dry.

now RMS.. THERE's a way to measure power.  I always thought that was thought up by some politicians who were in the pockets of GE (the first transistors???).
but it's a LOUSY way to measure amplifier power.  
Most of us use our amps to listen to music (or break leases).  But the truth be known...that music isn't A frequency,  but "frequencies" tones.   complex to the n!
ah!  Complex and monster cable..  (I swear I've only had ONE shot and ONE beer)
That heavy cables not about handling extream power, but passing that power fast. really fast.  all the power.  and at all the tones.  highs and lows.  fast.   and here fast is something you can hear as well as feel (okay,  now ya gotta have a pretty nice system)  When your speaking of speakers..  stereos and amps.   fast can mean soooo much more than POWER.
Why do some nuts still hang onto their vacuuum tube stereos?  they ain't got no power!  it's that they know HOW to USE what they've got  (the tubes,  not the people)
That HEavy speaker wire helps ensure that all the musical energy get's to the speaker  at the same time,  with the same porportions.
is it steel or cat gut?   and then there is..  not only what their playing.. it's also WHERE they were when they performed.   SOUND STAGE..  who is where..  left to right..   front to back.  
there's soundstage in speed.  
Well,   I guess I vented!   whew!    next time...  let's due THD.. SID  and TIM. or was it TID?

and speaking of rant's..  what's with digital tv antennas?  isn't RF   RF?
my OLD tv ant. receives both AM and FM..  yeah,  we strip off the video and audio..
you mean my analog antenna can't see the digital crap on that rf?

and I STILL say that old mare BESS can yank out a tree stump long before your 5.5 hp lawnboy.  and she's by herself.   won't even work up a sweat.   (didn't someone need some mare sweat?)  and speaking of bio-mass.. she'll (BESS) will give you some of that too!

LONG live 33 1/3 (all put away untill my grandaughters learn what NO means!)

[ Parent ]



Re: AC vs DC (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by badmoonryzn on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 03:52:07 AM MST

Years ago when I was still in high school I was going to cut some plywood. I dug up a 100 cord, plugged it in to the wall and walked out to where I wanted to work. I plugged in my skill saw and it went buzz. I thought it had died so I went to the garage a decided to try it again. WHAAA, it ran just fine. I could not figure out why I could use the drop light but not the saw so I took it back to the store where I got the saw and the cord. The guy who sold me the stuff didn't know either. The owner came out wondering why I was bringing back the saw and after I told my plight he laughed and told me I needed a 100 dollar 12 gauge cord to run a 7 hp saw at 100 feet as the light gauge cord worked on the drop light and 10 amp charger but no way would it work on the skill saw. So I learned a little bit about how wire and amps work. I liked the things electricity was able to do so I decided to learn as much as I could. What fun, not only was the field a lot of fun but so were most of the people with all of their ideas abound. One would never run out of things to do and learn. I have been playing with it for 30 years now and I still learn new things every day. It also brings many people together like here, what more could someone ask for? I am new to this site but I look forward to it every day as it is just like waiting for the daily newspaper or monthly magazine with all of the ideas and knowledge passed on. I had forgot these places were still around as I had got tired of computers working on them every day. Anyway I am glad this place is here as it is helpful in my project and meeting new friends. Thanks all, you have no idea how helpful this site is to me.

Thanks again,
badmoon

I just wanna have some fun, maybe learn something new every day and make some friends in the process.
[ Parent ]



Re: AC vs DC (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by wdyasq on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:17:07 AM MST

"100 dollar 12 gauge cord to run a 7 hp saw at 100 feet as the light gauge cord worked on the drop light and 10 amp charger but no way would it work on the skill saw."

I have a CNC router with a "3.25HP" Porter-Cable router. I was on a forum where all the folks claim the "3.25HP" router. Oddly enough, it will pull only 1900W on startup and runs under a hard pull at about 1200W. It has NEVER made 3.25HP and I doubt any of them  will.

To get 7HP from a saw one would need to pull 5250W or almost 44A at 120V. But, folks still buy the 7HP saws, 6HP vacuums and such.

They deregulated electricity rated here so it would lower our power costs. Each time I hear a salesman (and politicians are selling themselves) say something I wonder what they are up to and think, "BOHICA".

Ron
Adventure is just bad planning." -- Roald Amundsen
[ Parent ]



Re: AC vs DC (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by DanB on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:29:51 AM MST

I have a cheapo horizontal metal cutting bandsaw.  The motor is about 8" long/8" wide and claims to be 1hp, draws .75KW and 4 amps on the sticker.  They just stick whatever numbers on there they feel like I guess.  

[ Parent ]


Re: AC vs DC (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by dinges on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:20:07 PM MST

You Americans...

Should have used 230V, like we do over here. Less current needed for a given power, so less voltage drop in the extension wires.

Us Europeans...

Should have used 60Hz, like you do over there.

But this would be plain logical and common sense. Which isn't that common, it seems. Doesn't change the fact that power ratings may be overrated. So, next time you buy a power saw, will you buy one that is NOT marketing rated? Because if you don't, you'll be supporting the marketing hype...

I've got a bad back so try to bend over as little as possible.

[ Parent ]



Re: AC vs DC (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by ghurd on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:49:52 PM MST

With 230V, either 50 or 60Hz, most of us inquisitive Yanks never would have made it 10 years old.  Good thing it was not DC.

By 12, I (we?) knew exactly what <anything> would do when stuck in a 120V 60Hz outlet.
It is amazing so many of us make it through learning the intricacies of pertrol.
Time for my pill...
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]



Re: AC vs DC (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by craig110 on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 07:19:56 PM MST

Well, you could always move to either Antiqua or Korea, then, as I believe they use 220v at 60Hz.  :-)

Craig

[ Parent ]



Re: AC vs DC (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by badmoonryzn on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:32:05 PM MST

It has been a while sense I thought about it but isn't one horse power the ability to lift 1 pound 1000 feet in one minute or to lift 1000 pounds 1 foot in one minute? Goodness I have not thought about that sense 1972, my first year as a sawmill electrician apprentice. Time sure flies when you get old. I did not ever think about it until my oldest daughter turned 30. Then I suddenly just felt old. Oh well, it happens to the best of us!

Getting to old,
Badmoonryzn

I just wanna have some fun, maybe learn something new every day and make some friends in the process.
[ Parent ]



Re: AC vs DC (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by coldspot on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 04:34:16 AM MST

"rectifier near the solar"
?

And we thought he was perfect. lol
:)
sorry flux
just had to.




Re: AC vs DC (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by altosack on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 03:41:53 PM MST

Hmmm...

I thought Flux' explanation of the options available was really, really good (even better than his norm).

His comment that included the phrase "rectifier near the solar" made perfect sense to me, and his word choice was not wrong. Read it again.

Dave

[ Parent ]



Re: AC vs DC (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by stephent on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 10:39:19 PM MST

Hummmm---1 HP motors that draw a piddly 3 or 4 amps at 120vac???
Nice marketing hype....try taking the LRA (locked rotor amps) and multiplying that by 120 volts and ----whooooaaa--there we go, there's the magic numbers they present.
Electric motors at stall (locked rotor) amp draw times 120 volt ratings (or 230vac for our foreign friends) make for nicer HP numbers for consumers to look at.
Vacuum cleaner motors are about as easy--max rpm unloaded times max torque the motor will stand = instant marketing HP hype.
Kinda like we take the open circuit voltage a genny will make and multiply times the short circuit voltage we get out. Spin it up to 2000 rpm....
Bingo--instant 1kw generators in 6" rotor size at 2000 rpm.
Nothing to this advertizing stuff--maybe I should change careers.



Re: AC vs DC (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by SparWeb on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 12:18:45 AM MST

My vacuum cleaner says 12 Amps on the case.  I plugged it into an ammeter, and it only drew 9 Amps.  Loaded or unloaded, there wasn't much difference.  Whatever you say, guys.

Steven Fahey
[ Parent ]


Re: AC vs DC (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by badmoonryzn on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 04:42:58 AM MST

Heh Heh Heh, woke up the guys with this one LOL. I still wonder about the HP rating. Is HP the ability to raise 1 pound 1000 feet in one minute and/or 1000 pounds one foot in one minute? Maybe it's dementia showing up or maybe dreaming about HP or does anyone agree or disagree with the rating? Man the 2nd class license Whew, I walked in to the FCC office in Portland and sat down with confidence oozing from every poor in my body, I was 21, two years in the CET apprentice program, I gave the lady a wink and took my papers to the table, sat down huffed and with the grace of a dodo bird flunked with flying colours, not once but twice. I thought I was so damn smart I did not have to study. Well the third time was the charm. I was so scared I had cramps. I was not use to flunking a test. Nuf said about my hippy/redneck days. I have been a musician most of my life and stereos were pretty important to me. I still have an old Dannon tube amp. It must have been built in the seventies. It works great and I like the warmer sound of the tubes. I still use tube amps for my guitars. I really hate solid-state guitar amps. You can see the difference on a spectrum analyser. All of the distortion! LOL. I still have my old Marconi RF spectrum analyser too however it is pretty useless as it only goes up to 400 megahertz. I agree with 12AX7 on using a sufficient sized speaker wire to allow the 20 hertz notes that carry a big amp burst to the speakers. But come on, my plumbing to the outside rain birds in the pasture are smaller! With these type of signals do we need to use solid or hollow copper? J Is there an advantage? It is best when using 500 watts RMS at 20 hertz. I guess I am a nut I like TUBES! The sweet sound of tubes. LA LA LA I use to have a few big Peavy and Bi-Amp power amps that I drove 6 Kli Lascallas and a couple of Peavy SP1 enclosures speakers in bi-amp mode. I believe they were rated at 400 watts to the lower end and 75 watts to the horn and tweeters and the Peavys were two channel stereo rated at 400 watts per channel. I doubt I ever used more than 100 watts total not counting the peaks and each stack of three had it's own power amp and I ran the 800 watts on the monitors. I never used more than 50 to 75 watts on them. More Power, More Power. AHUF! I never needed anywhere near the power I could deliver. Outside was just about the same. I did not ever get to play with a system as large as the Who used, but good god they had to carry their own nuclear power plant. I guess it all boils down to what we will pay for and how much we think we need. I guess with age comes the wisdom my dad talked about. Wow, I think I need a met wrench set just like the guy on the TV says. I will throw away all of my snap-on tools just like they said because I don't need them any more. All I need is the finger ratchet a few sockets and wrenches that will fit everything, the forever guarantee and life will be good! Man I'm glad the TV was on while I played with the notebook. Where was I? Oh well, it must be bed time. Good night all, again I really enjoy all of you and your thoughts and opinions. Cheers,

Badmoon

I just wanna have some fun, maybe learn something new every day and make some friends in the process.



Re: AC vs DC (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by marvin on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 08:16:20 AM MST

How did this go from ACvsDC to a discussion of audio power?
Just a comment here about the original topic. Because of the zero crossing, AC is easier to break connection with current flowing than DC is. If you check most switches, relays, contactors and breakers, if they are DC rated it will be a lower voltage than the AC rating. This also the reason DC is easier to weld with, current flow in one direction. BTW does it go + to - or - to +, what really moves the electrons or the holes? That oughta get this going.
later-bye
marv



Re: AC vs DC (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by SmoggyTurnip on Fri Nov 17, 2006 at 07:47:04 AM MST

Here is some more marketing hype about winches.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/6000LB-12-VOLT-ELECTRIC-WINCH-w-REMOTE-12V-JEEP-BOAT-M_W0QQitemZ330050197257QQihZ 014QQcategoryZ46093QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Rolling Capacity: 6000 LBS.
Marine Capacity: 5000 LBS. (18'+ Boat)
Dead Weight Capacity: 2000 LBS. (Dragging)

It took me a while to figure out how they could say this is a 6000 lb winch.
I think rolling capacity must mean it can pull a 6000 pound cart on a railway.
Marine capacity must mean it can pull a 5000 lb boat in water.
Dead weight capacity is what it should be rated at.

.

The sooner you start the longer it takes.



AC vs DC | 21 comments (21 topical)
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