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Help with determining output


By mettleramiel, Section Wind
Posted on Sat Nov 11th, 2006 at 09:58:14 PM MST
Not quite sure how

Boy, the learning never seems to stop. Alright, I made a 3 phase (wired in star), single rotor generator. 9 coils of AWG#13 with I believe 60 turns (they were would a few months ago, can't seem to remember exactly), 12 2"x1"x1/2" magnets and an air gap of about 1/8". All that's left is to make the prop, but before I got to that, I decided to test the output. That's where I am lost. I wired it with the bridge rectifiers as per the diagram on this site and hooked it up to my multimetre. Spinning it by hand, I could get a reading of up to 12 in the 200 ACV setting giving me the impression that I was producing 12volts, but when I tried the on 12v Battery setting I couldn't get it past 6. So, I took it outside and hooked it up to an old battery with a reading of 10.74 volts and started spinning. No matter how fast I spun it, I never felt the resistence that I know I am supposed to be feeling once I have reached charging voltage, plus, the reading never changed. I have seen smaller windmills with smaller coils and magnets on the boards that claim to reach charging voltage. So, what's happening? Am I reading from the wrong setting? Is my battery far too dead to even accept any voltage? Or is it something completly different. Any help would be great.
Help with determining output | 7 comments (7 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Help with determining output (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by kurt on Sat Nov 11th, 2006 at 03:24:49 PM MST
(User Info)

do you have laminates behind the stator on this machine??

http://www.reresource.org/

IRC


Re: Help with determining output (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Sat Nov 11th, 2006 at 04:35:32 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

I expect you'll have to run it pretty fast to get 12VDC.  We built a few almost identical machines but used larger magnets (2" dia x 1/2" thick discs) and cutin is around 250 rpm.  I think yours will need to run up around 300 rpm with those magnets and I think to get that youll need a tighter airgap.

You could get the speed down to about 250 I think if you add a 2nd steel rotor (just a blank one without magnets).  Then it might make an pretty good 6 or 7' diameter 12V machine.



Re: Help with determining output (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by mettleramiel on Sat Nov 11th, 2006 at 08:23:50 PM MST
(User Info)

I will add the second rotor tommorrow. I really didn't think that would make such a difference. So then, I guess that I should trust the reading on the 12v battery mode then and not the 200v ACV?

Oh, and since you said that you had made similar machines to mine, I was wondering what charge controller would you recommend that would suit my generator best.

[ Parent ]



Re: Help with determining output (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by Flux on Sun Nov 12th, 2006 at 01:20:11 AM MST
(User Info)

You seem to be rather confused about using your meter. If you use it on ac you measure ac volts without a rectifier.

When you have a rectifier, measuring things on the dc side with the meter set to ac will give stupid answers. You must set the meter to dc if you have the rectifier.

You are also confused by the term air gap. For a dual rotor, the air gap is the distance from one magnet to the other. This includes the gaps between the magnet and stator and the thickness of the stator. With a single rotor there is no defined air gap, some flux jumps directly from one magnet to the next, some takes a longer path and with a bit of luck some of this will link with your stator. You need to get the physical gap between magnets and stator as small as possible to have any chance with a single rotor.

Dan has told you how to cure your problem, convert it to dual rotor with no magnets on the second disc. You then have a defined flux path and your air gap will be the distance from the magnet surface to the second disc.

This will lower your cut in to something reasonable and it should work fine, just keep those mechanical gaps close, not 1/8". They are not the air gaps that people normally talk about.
Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Help with determining output (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by mettleramiel on Sun Nov 12th, 2006 at 07:48:11 AM MST
(User Info)

That makes sense, I thought that it was still considered AC since the voltage will change with the rpm of the rotor. And you are right, I was confused about the airgap, I thought that it was the distance between the magnets and the stator. Thanks for clearing all that up.

[ Parent ]


Re: Help with determining output (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by stephent on Sun Nov 12th, 2006 at 09:40:27 AM MST
(User Info)

Flux----since you have the talent and knowledge/background you should write an article about the readings we get from the usual meters we use to get voltage/amp readings.
It is possible to get into the ballpark for accuracy with RMS type meters--but the added wave distortion of frequency, rectifier and battery/resistive load combo will throw even RMS meters a loop.
And sometimes even where/what setting/level seems to get confused at times.
I  know the basics (well, maybe a bit more then that) etc, but with the normal postings of using meters confusion, it might be one of the topics you could get into sometime.
You seem to have a talent for this type of posting/info to get the point across.

Just a thought.




Re: Help with determining output (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Flux on Sun Nov 12th, 2006 at 11:22:33 AM MST
(User Info)

Yes this is an issue that seems to cause lots of trouble and I am not surprised.

Unfortunately the issue is complicated by the fact that different types of meter work in different ways and usually when you grab a meter you have no idea what it is going to do if you use it for other than it was intended.

AC presents many problems once you depart from a sine wave at 50 or 60Hz.

True rms meters are predictable as they all measure the same thing but the answer may be far from what you expect if the waveform is way off your expectations.

Cheap ac meters are very unpredictable, although most full wave rectify the ac to dc, those that do that measure the mean value instead of the rms for a sine wave.

It has been standard practice to scale them to read rms on a sine wave. They then agree with a rms meter on a true sine wave and for working with normal supplies that is good enough.

Unless special measures are taken they all run into trouble at low volts where the rectifier drop is considerable. Cheap analogue ones have a special scale that is nonlinear for the low range.

Cheap digitals tend to have the low end restricted to about 20V and they hope you don,t try to measure very low volts. At 3V some can be badly out.

All AC meters have problems at low frequency, analogues vibrate the pointer and digitals do all sorts of strange things as they sample at different points on the ripple.

Measuring dc is easier, all normal dc meters measure mean. If you use a rms meter on smooth dc it will be ok but will read high if there is riple.

Bridge rectifiers are not perfect devices and at very low currents they can do odd things. The high impedance digital dc meters can give silly results on rectifiers with no load and if there is capacitance in the circuit they can often read up towards the peak and not the mean.

Probably the best advice that I can give for wind generator work is to only ever use a meter on the ac range to measure the ac voltage on open circuit, don't trust it too much at low volts unless it is true rms and even then it may be wrong if the waveform is very bad. Beware of any meter at very low frequencies.

Normally the waveform of air gap alternators is good enough to assume that it is a sine wave for normal use, Some iron core machines may be way off a sine wave.

Never use an ac meter to read the input voltage to a rectifier on load into a battery, the waveform will be so far off as to make it meaningless.

Never use a meter on the ac range on the dc side of a rectifier, many will give a reading and it is usually very high, some will not read at all but most modern ones will read and it is meaningless unless you know exactly how that meter works and how it is scaled.

For measuring dc volts after a rectifier it is safer to connect a bit of resistance to provide a slight load to keep the rectifier happy and prevent stray capacitance from charging. Values in the region of 1k ohm should cover all normal cases. Often you will not be very far out if you ignore this, but if you look with a "scope" to see what is going on, you will see things that are not good.

I hope this helps, but it is a very complex issue and without knowing the exact meter used you can't be sure what is going to happen.

If you avoid the things "not to do" that I have mentioned you should get something reasonably meaningful.
Flux

[ Parent ]



Help with determining output | 7 comments (7 topical, 0 editorial)
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