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new storage battery types
By badmoonryzn, Section Homebrewed Electricity Posted on Sun Nov 12, 2006 at 08:32:01 AM MST
I am looking for newer battery info

Happy Veterans and Remembrance Day you all!
Thunderhead spoke of:
The most practical battery I could find if you want 100+ mile range is the nickel-iron batteries Eagle-Picher made for the Dodge TEVan
He was thinking about using these in his home made car. I have not read much about these, does anyone know where there is some good info on the nickel-iron battery? I would like to end up with one kind of battery in my car and at home in the storage bank. This way I could move batteries around if needed and benefit from having one kind. I do not know how feasible this may be, but I remember when the FAA made their small air traffic control towers the used one battery and had several devices with different voltages. If I remember they had 12vdc, 24vdc and 110ac applications. The 110 was created with an inverter. Most of the items were 12volt so in theory a car could hook up to the tower and charge the batteries. They also had the ability to turn off what they did not need to keep the current draw down. I was told they saved 100k building the towers without big diesel backups. Most of the radio and other gear was 12 volt chassis anyway thanks to solid state components. Man, what a battery room, Woe Nelly, big batteries and big bucks! How about any other new battery? Darn hands are sore from winding coils, whew! It is a difficult choice, going with something cheap and simple like lead acid or something costly, more amps and questionable life. I like cheep. I am still going to put some kind of backup power in to the critter, but I have yet to figure out what configuration to use. I have several ways to go, but I am adding complication to something I wanted to keep simple. The easy part is having wind power, solar and water power to charge it at home.
Thanks,
Badmoon

new storage battery types | 12 comments (12 topical)

Re: new storage battery types (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by inode buddha on Sun Nov 12, 2006 at 04:34:28 AM MST

You're thinking of "Edison" batteries. They actually have a huge lifespan from what I've read. Some google searching could turn up the info on this board.

The batteries are basically alkaline, with alternating nickel and iron plates submerged in KOH (potassium hydroxide, also known as lye). If I recall, the ampere-hours capacity is quite generous. Hope this helps.

Re: new storage battery types (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by badmoonryzn on Sun Nov 12, 2006 at 07:37:37 AM MST

WOW, they are really neat, I wonder if anyone makes them anymore as the Edison company quit making them in the thirties. Why don't we use them now? Their life span is unbelievable. I have not seen their amp rating, but I do see they were used as the filiment voltage for tubes and other high power applications. They were used on ships, by the military and other applications until they got hooked on the grid or had generators. It looks like they came about the turn of the century. They must be really dangerous or something bad or matbe too good! Kind if neat, as I have never heard of them. Thanks Inode!

Badmoon
I just wanna have some fun, maybe learn something new every day and make some friends in the process.
[ Parent ]

Re: new storage battery types (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by bob g on Sun Nov 12, 2006 at 08:36:06 AM MST

they do have longer life, are more forgiving to abuse, etc. but,
their charging efficiency can be quite poor compared to lead acid batteries
this may be why they fell out of favor.

i have heard that the efficiency can be as low as 60%
which is not bad if you are the military and have some cheap source of power to recharge them, and lifespan, ruggedness, and abuse are primary objectives.

its all a matter of balance i guess

for instance if you have to recharge them with a gasoline generator, then they might not make sense, but ocnversely

if you have the capacity to recharge them with wind, water or solar (where you fuel is free) then they may make economic sense for some.

bob g

[ Parent ]

Re: new storage battery types (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by badmoonryzn on Sun Nov 12, 2006 at 12:39:06 PM MST

I found an original service book covering all of the different cells made by Edison. It carried the Amp hour ratings, battery size, electrolyte and most anything one could ever want. Some were rated up to 450 amp hour. They also told of all their applications. Everything that used electricity from 1899 and up. Apparently Edison originally designed these for electric cars but due to the time involved in R & D of the batteries gasoline cars had 10 to 15 years head start. By the time Edison's batteries hit the market the electric cars poor performance, horrible batteries and terrifying battery maintenance put the favour toward gas powered vehicles. Edison's batteries however were his best money making adventure even though the electric cars popularity died off there were so many application that needed good batteries he made a killing. Some of these batteries are still in use today. Amazing stuff considering the technology is up to 107 years old. I learned something new, cool!

Badmoonryzn

I just wanna have some fun, maybe learn something new every day and make some friends in the process.
[ Parent ]

Re: new storage battery types (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by thunderhead on Sun Nov 12, 2006 at 01:05:42 PM MST

Edison's electric car did not have problems with poor performance, horrible batteries or terrifying battery maintenance. The batteries were almost "fit and forget" -- some of Edison's original batteries are still in service 80 years later -- and the cars tended to be bought by people who needed reliability and a car that didn't have to be started with a starting handle.

Henry Ford's wife drove one, which tells you something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Electric

[ Parent ]

Re: new storage battery types (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by badmoonryzn on Sun Nov 12, 2006 at 02:43:58 PM MST

Badmoonryzn

I am in the process of picking the metal for my mill and I wondered why not use 1/4 inch T1 instead of 1/2 mild. This would help eliminate flexing and save some weight. There are places where there are pieces of armour plate that would work too. Any reasons why these would not be useable to some advantage?

Badmoon

I was taking about batteries before he redesigned them, batteries sucked before he and the boys from Menlo Park set the new standard. Edison took on the development of his battery because of the awful junk available to the electric car manufacturers. At the turn of the century gas and electric car were running about neck and neck in popularity, but the 12 to 15 years of battery development time gave the gas powered cars too many years in development advantage and they became the popular choice. Even with Edison's batteries the electric cars lost their popularity. If I remember I said:

Edison originally designed these batteries for electric cars but due to the time involved in R & D of the batteries gasoline cars had 10 to 15 years head start. By the time Edison's batteries hit the market the electric cars poor performance, horrible batteries and terrifying battery maintenance put the favour toward gas powered vehicles.

I got this info from the Edison sites below: http://invention.smithsonian.org/centerpieces/edison/000_story_02.asp and http://home.cybertron.com/~edurand/Otherstuff/Edison.html and
http://edison.rutgers.edu/biogrphy.htm

How do you get that from this???

Oh well,
badmoon

I just wanna have some fun, maybe learn something new every day and make some friends in the process.
[ Parent ]

Re: new storage battery types (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by badmoonryzn on Sun Nov 12, 2006 at 04:23:58 PM MST

Oh yea,

I almost forgot, here is what that tells me: Even Fords wife wouldn't drive a Fprd! AAAAAAAH HAAAAA HAAAAAA HAAAAAAAA Oh man, LMAO
I just wanna have some fun, maybe learn something new every day and make some friends in the process.
[ Parent ]

Re: new storage battery types (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Titantornado on Sun Nov 12, 2006 at 09:30:03 AM MST

> WOW, they are really neat, I wonder if anyone
> makes them anymore as the Edison company quit
> making them in the thirties.

BeUtilityFree.com has a manufacturer. data and price sheet: http://www.beutilityfree.com/batterynife/Flyer.pdf

Rod

[ Parent ]

Re: new storage battery types (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by thunderhead on Sun Nov 12, 2006 at 01:21:54 PM MST

The Wikipedia article says 60 miles, although people who use them claim more, as did the original owners' manual. Poke around Google.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_TEVan

In a car as small and light as I drive, it should be easy to get 100+.

The reason nobody uses them ... well, that depends on how much of a conspiracy theorist you are. When the motor manufacturers were compelled to make electric cars, they knocked something together with Edison's technology and that is what they got on the first try. As soon as their lawyers got them off the hook, they stopped.

They must be really dangerous or something bad or matbe too good!

As it is, the battery manufacturers sell you a new car battery every five years. What would it do to their revenue if they sold you a battery that outlasted the car? I have seen the batteries from scrapped TEVans on sale. As I said, it depends on how much of a conspiracy theorist you are.

But in countries which don't use the same economic models as the West, nickel iron batteries are still made and sold. The only manufacturers I've found are in China and Eastern Europe. Riddle me that.

I don't believe they are dangerous. The nickel-iron battery is one of the few that you could safely eat. A few people are allergic to nickel (it's used in cheap jewellery, and in cutlery) and iron is all around us. Potassium salts are OK, lithium salts are mildly psychoactive and give kidney problems in high concentrations. But for high temperature/high current applications, you use sodium hydroxide anyway.

But compare them to nickel-cadmium (cadmium is horribly poisonous) or lead acid (poisonous and corrosive).

They also have the advantage that they are a lot less damaged by abuse than most other battery technologies. If you run them flat, then leave them for a month, then recharge them, they bounce back. Again, try that with the other battery technologies out there.

From time to time, people appear online saying "my grandfather left me these batteries. They seem to work. What should I do?" The best answer seems to be "leave them to your grandchildren". They are normally Edison batteries or some variation.

Edison was a clever fellow, and he set out to improve the life and safety of storage batteries. He succeeded, it seems.

[ Parent ]

Re: new storage battery types (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by altosack on Sun Nov 12, 2006 at 02:13:01 PM MST

I'm a conspiracy theorist through and through, but there are certain realities about why NiFe batteries are not used for road vehicles: energy/volume density, energy/weight density, charge efficiency, and self-discharge. All of these are approximately 3X worse than lead acid batteries.

It takes 3 times the volume and weight to store the same energy as a lead-acid battery. This really decreases range and, particularly, acceleration and speed in a vehicle so equipped. For most people, who don't care that much about longevity since stuff is cheap compared to what they're able to steal from the system, this is a deal-breaker.

I agree that as a stationary energy source where you have excess power a lot of the time (like wind, not solar), it's a great way to go. When I settle down more, I will start my search for several sets of NiFe batteries. However, I will not use them in a road vehicle unless distances are short and speeds are low.

Dave

[ Parent ]

Re: new storage battery types (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by badmoonryzn on Sun Nov 12, 2006 at 03:14:18 PM MST

It is hard not to be somewhat aprehesive and cynicle when lawers and bankers run the country, but regarless of mt persoal thoughts I try to be kind and temper my comunication process. I honestly believe maketing does not care what pleases the consumer. They will sell us what they think we need and plan obsolesance into every thing they can to control what we need and when we need it. Why not keep the money flowing to their pockets. I could point out dozens of examples just in my little world, but why most people know this unless they are some of the few who go through life happy regardless of how much crap they fall in to. damn I hate those people. :-) Some day I will be oblivious too.

Badmoon
I just wanna have some fun, maybe learn something new every day and make some friends in the process.
[ Parent ]

Re: new storage battery types (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Nando on Sun Nov 12, 2006 at 08:33:35 AM MST

Some time back, not too long, somebody informed of a lot of FerroNickel batteries at very low cost, like 10 dollars each for a 300 or 345 amp cells.

FeNI batteries have a long life, my family still have a couple of battery banks bought around the 1900 for the farms.

Proper maintenance is the key for long life and do not operate without the Lithium is the stabilizer and the life extender of the cells.

Nando

new storage battery types | 12 comments (12 topical)

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