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Twist Through Wing


By WXYZCIENCE, Section Wind
Posted on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 05:35:59 PM MST
A Question About Twist

I am looking for some information on Wing Twist through the length of a fixed four foot wing from root to tip? Does it make a lot of difference to the turbines performance and noise level?
Joseph
Twist Through Wing | 9 comments (9 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Twist Through Wing (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by SamoaPower on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 12:02:07 PM MST
(User Info)

Joe,

It depends on design TSR and whether fixed or variable pitch. The penalty for low/no twist at TSR 4-5 is perhaps 3% in efficiency. The penalty increases at higher TSR.

Remember, the outer 25% of the blade is doing most of the work, so if the blade angle there is near correct, you will do pretty well.

One of the advantages of variable pitch is the ability to partially compensate for lack of twist. I'm talking about active pitch control, not the protection schemes. It can be set quite coarse for good start-up and then tuned for the desired TSR.

If you want twist, I would think that your fancy foam cutting machine could be programmed to give you linear twist. Progressive twist would not be possible, of course.

I have no data for noise vs. twist. If noise is an issue, keep the TSR low.




Re: Twist Through Wing (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by zap (bell47g5a at comcast dot net) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 02:20:25 PM MST
(User Info)

I once saw some stucco guys cutting foam and to get, what I would call a progressive twist, on EPS foam they put a pre-twist in the blank then cut it as usual.  Once the the cut piece was removed from the cutter the piece went back to it's original axis and the piece had a twist to it.  It might take a few "by guess and by golly" tries but I think it would work.

zap
[ Parent ]


Re: Twist Through Wing (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by SparWeb (sparweb at ANTISPAM_hotmail_com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 01:12:04 PM MST
(User Info)

Theoretically, with no twist the blade has less torque.  If one part of the blade is experiencing its maximum Lift/Drag ratio, then all the rest of the blade isn't.  But it's not fatal.  
Take for example an airfoil section like a Wortmann FX 63-137 (like your recent creation, but thinner).  Its L/D-max is around 6 degrees.  If you want a prop with a TSR=8, then you would mount the blade at a tip angle of:

arctan(1/8)=7 degrees

7 deg - 6 deg = 1 degree

That would be fine for the tip, but a foot inboard, the speed ratio is different:

3 ft / 4 ft * 8 = local TSR of 6

Now the airfoil is experiencing a higher angle of attack:

arctan(1/6)=9.5 degrees

and its lift coefficient is higher (good) but its drag coefficient is also higher (bad).

The blade will do just fine up to the 2 foot station, at which point it stalls.  There is still some lift generated, but the drag is really high and that's a torque that slows things down.

arctan(1/4)=14 degrees   - getting close to stall!

The torque that slows down the prop forces it to run at a lower TSR.  Oops that throws the previous calculations out the window - and its not going in a good direction.  Slowing down the blade means that stall begins even farther out.  You could lose about 1/3 of the disk area at the root, which otherwise would be helpful.

If the blade was twisted, the most efficient angle of attack can be maintained for nearly the full length of the blade.

Steven Fahey



Re: Twist Through Wing (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by SamoaPower on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 01:35:36 PM MST
(User Info)

You're right of course Steve, but that inner third only contributes 11% to the rotor output.

[ Parent ]


Re: Twist Through Wing (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by ghurd on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 02:14:06 PM MST
(User Info)

My experience seems insignificant compared to Joe's or Samoa's, but the inner 1/3 appears to have no effect, totally inconsequential, on my little stuff. Maybe the inner half is inconsequential, but I never went that far, and can not measure anything that well.
G-

[ Parent ]


Re: Twist Through Wing (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by SparWeb (sparweb at ANTISPAM_hotmail_com) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 12:31:03 PM MST
(User Info)

Little stuff has a Reynold's Number problem... All bets are off when you're using stepper motors and the like.  But when you're in it for the fun, who cares? (and who wants to do the math...?)

Steven Fahey
[ Parent ]


Re: Twist Through Wing (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by WXYZCIENCE on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 04:48:22 PM MST
(User Info)

Thanks for the input. Now if I set the machine up to do a 12 degree twist over the four feet. And set my tip close to 1 degree then the three foot section attack angle would be 4 degrees and at the 2 foot section it would be 7 degrees and the 1 foot would be 10 degrees.

Am I seeing this correctly?
Joseph.

[ Parent ]


Re: Twist Through Wing (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by SamoaPower on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 08:45:25 AM MST
(User Info)

Yup, you got it.

[ Parent ]


Re: Twist Through Wing (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by finnsawyer on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 09:23:52 AM MST
(User Info)

Once you get past stall the lift coefficient drops drastically and the drag coefficient increases drastically, so not only are you getting no power from the inner regions, but you must rob power from the outer part of the blade to overcome the drag from the inner region.  The saving grace here is that the apparent wind speed drops toward the center.  And also the attitude seems to be that wind will blow stronger tomorrow.

You can make your blade with a zero angle at the tip and install a six degree wedge at the root to get the desired angle of attack at the tip.  This then means that at the two foot station you only need to carve a 2.5 degree angle to keep the six degree angle of attack.  You can get good performance further in that way.

There are some other aspects you might consider.  Most of the drag is in the direction of rotation, while only a small part of lift, which provides output power, is.  You really want to maximize that ratio.  So, geometry becomes important.  For each station the product of lift force times the velocity at that station should equal the power available as the blade rotates.  Greater lift means that you can use a narrower blade, as the power available is fixed.  A narrower blade, in turn, means less drag.  This would seem to yield a result that flies in the face of usual practice in that a narrower blade toward the root would provide better performance if the ideal twist was maintained.  That is, the greater twist means that a greater percentage of the lift will be in the direction of rotation.
GeoM
[ Parent ]



Twist Through Wing | 9 comments (9 topical, 0 editorial)
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