Go to Otherpower.com Home Page Go to Forcefield Shopping Cart Go to Wondermagnet.com Home Page
Front Page - [Homebrewed Electricity-- (wind) (solar) (hydro) (steam) (controls) (storage) (mechanical)] - Classifieds - Site News
Everything - Newbies - [Remote Living-- (housing) (heat) (light) (water)] - Reviews - Diaries - Our Products
NIFE Batteries


By Nando, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Sat Dec 02, 2006 at 07:38:50 PM MST
FerroNickel or NiFe batteries availability and life

Gentlemen:

Nickel Iron batteries = NIFe= Ferronickel batteries.

I would like to know what NiFe battery sources are available ( who make them) and their cost and availability .

Also, those that have NIFe Battery banks, I would like to know their brand , AH sizes and how are they behaving and what life have any of you have being able to determine they may have and what type of battery damages have occurred.

I need the information to determine if its worth to buy NiFe versus Lead Acid with 15 to 20 Years life and NOT deep discharge but maybe 30 % maximum.

Thanks for your assistance

Nando

NIFE Batteries | 6 comments (6 topical)

Re: NIFE Batteries (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Titantornado on Sat Dec 02, 2006 at 03:01:23 PM MST

http://www.beutilityfree.com/batterynife/Flyer.pdf

Rod



Re: NIFE Batteries (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by vawtman on Sat Dec 02, 2006 at 04:41:43 PM MST

If Edison could make a such a great battery way back then.Im wondering why we cant homebrew his battery nowadays?



Re: NIFE Batteries (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by thunderhead on Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 11:22:37 AM MST

Edison's battery is probably a little beyond the average homebrewer.  But I suspect that something could be done with nickel and iron wire wools, packed tight, and using an overvoltage to convert nickel and iron into the hydroxides.  The ratio of mass to surface area on 000 grade wire wool should be pretty favourable.

I haven't got around to verifying that, though: my wife has me looking at smallholdings, and keeps spending money at least as fast as I can earn it with paying work.

You know how it is.

But if you get hold of some nickel and iron wire wool, and some sodium hydroxide solution, I'd love to know how you get on. :-)


[ Parent ]



Re: NIFE Batteries (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Nando on Sat Dec 02, 2006 at 05:07:18 PM MST

I am quite familiar with them since I grew up around them, my family imported them at the beginning of the 1900's and there are some still alive and well.

The problem is the nickel electrode surface area that has to be increased dramatically and the way they were made by Edison implied a lot of chemical work, electrolysis and more chemical work to make flakes that looked like the feathers of a bird in a semicircle size ( if I remember right).

incrementing the surface area more than 100 times (?), I do not know how the Chinese are doing them now.

There was a company building them in USA, Eagle Pitcher ( ?) that were quite good for a electric car project that wend bankrupt, I believe .

Electrolyte is critical ( KOH + LIthium) and needs to be protected from Oxygen for the electrolyte to last -- though it may need to be replaced about every 12 to 18 years.

Nando



Re: NIFE Batteries (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by thunderhead on Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 11:15:46 AM MST

I need the information to determine if its worth to buy NiFe versus Lead Acid with 15 to 20 Years life and NOT deep discharge but maybe 30 % maximum.

That is not a like-for-like comparison.  According to the literature, you could accept 60% deep discharge (or more) on your equivalent NiFe, and so possibly save 50% (or more) of your capacity.  So if 1kWh of storage in NiFe costs half again what 1kWh of storage costs in Lead-Acid, you might still win on price.

Someone's alreadly linked "BeUtilityFree": I suspect their manufacturer
is these folks:-

http://www.solar3000.com/inverter_battery.htm

It seems likely that the Chinese price is cheaper than the American one, since one of them is adding a markup and the other isn't.  But I don't know the story, since I don't have a price for the Chinese manufacturer.

The problem is the nickel electrode surface area that has to be increased dramatically and the way they were made by Edison implied a lot of chemical work, electrolysis and more chemical work to make flakes that looked like the feathers of a bird in a semicircle size ( if I remember right).

Absolutely correct.  Edison nickel-plated copper, then etched away the copper to leave flakes of nickel.  These were pressed into the nickel hydroxide to increase conductivity.

incrementing the surface area more than 100 times (?), I do not know how the Chinese are doing them now.

They'll be using standard pocket plate technology -- which wasn't known in Edison's time.  The nickel electrode of a nickel-iron battery is absolutely identical to that of a nickel-cadmium battery.  

Because nickel-cadmium and nickel-metal-hydride batteries use identical chemistry (and construction) for the nickel electrode, the nickel electrodes of modern storage batteries have advanced nearly a century since Edison's time.

Some modern researchers are using other techniques -- for example, NASA are electroplating grains of nickel hydroxide with nickel before sintering the electrode, to increase the conductivity, and getting batteries where 90%+ of the electrolyte undergoes chemical conversion in charge and discharge.  A battery like that is interesting, because its performance in terms of kWh/kg and kWh/litre would far exceed modern lithium cells.  To an EV-curious person like me, that is interesting, to say the least.

Electrolyte is critical ( KOH + LIthium) and needs to be protected from Oxygen for the electrolyte to last -- though it may need to be replaced about every 12 to 18 years.

It has to be protected from carbon dioxide, not oxygen.  Oxygen is generated in the cell as part of the normal process of charging, when the endpoint is reached.

Carbon dioxide reacts with potassium hydroxide to produce potassium carbonate:-

KOH + CO2 -> K2CO3.

The potassium carbonate is no good as an electrolyte, since it doesn't donate hydroxyl ions.  It is the transport of hydroxyl ions from one electrode to the other that stores and carries the charge, so obviously that is vital to the operation.

Nickel-cadmium minature batteries for high power apps use sodium hydroxide in solution, because it is more consistent at higher temperatures.  So sodium hydroxide works.  The metal ions in the electrolyte do not participate in the reaction, so as long as the concentration of hydroxyl ions is the same, the metal providing the hydroxide is not critical.

I believe that the KOH/LiOH combination is supposed to be better with very long term electrode life, but I've not found enough research online to suggest why this might be -- or even if it's true.

[ Parent ]



Re: NIFE Batteries (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by thunderhead on Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 11:18:07 AM MST

Post in haste, repent at leisure. :-(

2KOH + CO2 -> K2CO3 + H2O

[ Parent ]



NIFE Batteries | 6 comments (6 topical)
Display: Sort:
Menu
· create account
· How to use the board
· FAQs
· search the board
· Google search the board

Login
Make a new account
Username:
Password:

Total Views
  112 Scoop users have viewed this posting.

Related Links
· Also by Nando

Powered by Scoop
You must be a registered user to post here. It's easy and free, and the link is on the upper right side of your page.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Postings are owned by the poster, but may be deleted or moved at the ADMIN's sole discretion. The Rest © 2009 Forcefield.
You can Email the board ADMIN here. PLEASE include the username you signed up with!