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24 VOLT INVERTER
By 2windy, Section Controls Posted on Tue Dec 5th, 2006 at 03:56:38 AM MST
any feed back welcome

Has anyone here bought one of those 24 volt stackable inverters off e-bay? They claim to have been made for the government, indestructable, 24-7 use. Going to just use it for a few lights and heater, probably the fridge this summer. If anyone has had any experience with these any comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

24 VOLT INVERTER | 16 comments (16 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: 24 VOLT INVERTER (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by watermanhfl on Tue Dec 5th, 2006 at 04:29:49 AM MST
(User Info) http://home.rochester.rr.com/antpowell/

I have the 48 volt version and it has worked well for 3 months continuosly. The LED is a bit strange as it flashes yellow/green but per seller that it normal. Fan runs as needed. Inverter has all the usual low and high voltage alarms and shut-downs. Does not automatically restart after an alarm.
WatermanHFL

Re: 24 VOLT INVERTER (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Titantornado on Tue Dec 5th, 2006 at 10:53:36 AM MST
(User Info)

If what they say about active waveform is true, that's a good price for what basically amounts to an efficient, true sinewave inverter. Being stackable only makes it that much better of a deal. Buy what you can afford as you go. Being able to make a 220/110 arangement is neat too, but I don't think appliances that use both will work. (most 220v ranges and dryers have a neutral) Not that you should be using such appliances in your inverter driven home.

I like them, but I'd like to hear a little more about the efficiency curve.

Rod

Re: 24 VOLT INVERTER (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Nando (nando37-at-tx-dot-rr-dot-com Correct theanti-spam) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 07:59:04 AM MST
(User Info)

Can you post what You are talking about?

Post the eBay number to see what You comment on.

Some of the stackable are MSW and not Pure Sinusoidal.

MSW stackable are not difficult to design since a simple low level of equally MSW can be sent to the other stackable ( one works as a master and the others as slaves).

For the pure Sinusoidal wave form, the coupling information is more critical and what is interchanged between the units is in principle a bit more complicated to be able to have a common sine wave without phase errors and, as well, the protection circuitry has to be fed between the units.

Some Pure sinusoidal stackable units operate as one master and the others ( the slaves) as constant AC sources, much like the GRID tied inverters -- If you find this type, then is possible to use this as GRID tied units. CAVEAT EMPTOR -- One needs determine if they have enough capabilities for GRID tied connection.

Nando

Re: 24 VOLT INVERTER (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by twombo on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 12:07:39 PM MST
(User Info)

Nando

I think this is the one he is referring to:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Power-Inverter-STACKABLE-TYPE-220-VAC-24-Volt-DC_W0QQitemZ290058518930QQihZ019QQ categoryZ41980QQcmdZViewItem

These are made by Hydrogen Appliances, they make some other stuff like PMAs and PMA based windmills. They have some interesting stuff and have some interesting thoughts on load diversion from PMAs. I would be interested in your thoughts on what hey advocated and their products.

I'm curious about the snake oil content!

Having followed some of your posts, it's pretty clear you are much more experienced in electronics than I. I'm sure ther are a number of us less knowledgeable types that would value some, more expert, analysis!

Here is their main web page url:

http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/

Thanks

Mike

OBTW, I have thought about purchasing some of these inverters myself to setup a backup AC capability. Problem is, I have 12 volt system in place, so the backup might become the primary.

For that matter I could setup a primary and backup system for the price of one equally sized Outback or Xantrex inverter. Since i will be using a little diesel DC gennyset to mainain batteries I don't need the onboard charging capability found in the usual inverter system.

T

[ Parent ]

Re: 24 VOLT INVERTER (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by TomW on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 12:39:54 PM MST
(User Info)

I would not believe Hydrogen Appliances if they said water was wet and the sky was blue.

I probably would not buy a glass of water from them if I was dying of thirst either.

Just my opinion.

T

[ Parent ]

Re: 24 VOLT INVERTER (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by twombo on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 01:33:38 PM MST
(User Info)

Tom

Just curious, have you had or know of folks who have had problems with HA or their products?

Specifically, I am interested in their permanent magnet alternators in an automotive frame. Seems like an efficient way to make power. I have a hard time grasping their dump load scheme to prevent battery overcharging.

If there are serious issues having to do with their products or practices I would be very interested in yoiur views.

Be assured, I 'm not challenging your assertion, but I sure would like to know more so I (and others) can practice due diligence in our choice of products.

Thanks

Mike

[ Parent ]

Re: 24 VOLT INVERTER (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by TomW on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 02:25:06 PM MST
(User Info)

twombo;

Well, I refuse to go back to their site to find glaring examples of misrepresentation but you will find very little information there that is truly factual. In particular, their power output claims almost always exceed the known limits possible for the diameter and quoted wind speeds. They used to have one they claimed made power in 1.8 mph winds thats just pure fairytale unless its very very large.

Even their name is a misrepresentation. Unless they actually started selling appliances that use hydrogen.

All simply my opinion but many others seem to feel the same but most don't say it in here.

Snake Oil plain and simple.

I only made that comment because I hate to see people suckered in by slick claims. Try searching this board for "hydrogenappliances" and you will find many others who either see them as the scammers they are or have been suckered by them.

As I said, just my personal opinions and others may or may not agree. It is your money so spend it well don't give it to the ripoff man.

Contact: IRC

[ Parent ]

Re: 24 VOLT INVERTER (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by twombo on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 04:02:24 PM MST
(User Info)

Thanks Tom

Good advice and well taken!! I read your referenced posts.

I can build a Jim dandy DC Genny with a field current regulated 12 or 24 volt truck alternator, an XAR12 charge controller and a small prime mover (looking at a EB300 Kubota or a Honda XC160 gasser) that will get the job done just fine and skip all the issues of PMAs and H/A's hype. All for less about the cost of one iffy H/A PMA.

Again, many thanks!!!

Mike

[ Parent ]

Re: 24 VOLT INVERTER (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by Nando (nando37-at-tx-dot-rr-dot-com Correct theanti-spam) on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 10:52:53 AM MST
(User Info)

MIKE:

Keep away from the Hydrogenappliances place, 20,000 leagues is about the closest possible distance from them, including, phone, telegraph, Internet, USPS, UPS, FedEX, Mule express, Donkey Express, walking pace, Jogging or Running and for the last three toward the opposite direction.

Case alternators for autos and trucks are limited to about 600 to 1200 watts with more than 500 ft minute cooling.
So think about what they say they can produce and reality, also the specifications are done exclusive of each other and not concurrent.

I just visited the site, talk abut 25000 RPM. Oh boy, I wonder what type of balancing capabilities the have to avoid flying apart, also, the "TECHNOLOGY TO KEEP THE MAGNETS on the ROTOR" -- they seem to forget Torque problems.

And the generated power !!! I wonder if they, as well, supply "liquid Nitrogen" for life to keep the generator cool at high power levels (as their specifications detail) because the cooling "wind required" can not remove the amount of energy from such low size generator.

Can they supply the winding resistance ?.

Nando

[ Parent ]

Re: 24 VOLT INVERTER (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by ghurd on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 02:06:12 PM MST
(User Info)

My favorite is the controller connected to one of many batteries.
I have enough trouble keeping 2, 6V used at 12V at the same V! Even with proper eq charges.
G-

[ Parent ]

Re: 24 VOLT INVERTER (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by elt on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:13:10 PM MST
(User Info)

I got mine (24volt version) about a week ago, didn't power it up until yesterday because I was waiting to get my battery situation straightened out.

It's certainly not indestructable; if your read all their pages you'll see lots of warnings about it not being covered by the warranty if it blows up because you hooked it up incorrectly... I was a little surprised to read their recommendation that you operate it in an air conditioned room in the summer in order to keep it cool!

Well, I powered it up to see if it had voltage to the ground terminal (search and read the "floating ground" messages) and sure enough it does. So, even though they have all those examples of connecting to an electrical panel, including hooking up the ground from the inverter to the ground on the panel, I think that THERE IS A HUGE OMISSION that you can't hook it up to the panel in your home because the neutral in your home panel is tied to ground... you'd short the inverter... again, the details are in the "floating ground" threads; it's worth searching the board.

Well, I bought mine to provide backup power to my furnace when power goes out in the winter. Since my furnace is hardwired to my panel, I'm going to have to do a little bit more disconnecting to use it than just hooking it into my transfer switch like I thought I could...

Sorry, I don't have any long term use with it but I thought I'd share what little I know!

- Ed.

Re: 24 VOLT INVERTER (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by 2windy on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:48:25 PM MST
(User Info)

Ed, I don't understand what you mean by floating ground or voltage to the ground. Can you explain a bit further before I hook it up. I didn't plan on hardwiring it in to my home panel.

[ Parent ]

Re: 24 VOLT INVERTER (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by elt on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 08:53:25 AM MST
(User Info)

I'd just be parroting (probably badly) what people who knew what they were talking about wrote... just type "floating ground" into the Google search the board and you'll find the posts.

Hope that helps,
- Ed.

[ Parent ]

Re: 24 VOLT INVERTER (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by Nando (nando37-at-tx-dot-rr-dot-com Correct theanti-spam) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 01:53:03 PM MST
(User Info)

The GRID has 3 wires ( 120 Volts) one is HOT ( Normally black = death), the second is Neutral ( normally White = life) and the third is Green or ground.

The GRID applies the AC to the Black and the Neutral is connected to the Ground at the transformer common = ground.

The ground and the Green are used to detect current flowing from the Hot = black to the ground to disconnect the GRID power from the Hot.
So the Neutral does not have any voltage, just the carrying current.

The MSW Inverters use the Neutral to send the Negative level of the MSW wave form.

so the Neutral can not be left grounded any where, so it has to be FLOATING for the MSW to operate properly.

Better MSW do have the Neutral grounded.

Nando

[ Parent ]

Re: 24 VOLT INVERTER (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by Nando (nando37-at-tx-dot-rr-dot-com Correct theanti-spam) on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 10:31:45 AM MST
(User Info)

ED:

This to reply to You and all using the MSW DC/AC inverters.

The inverters to be produced cheap have an output that is "Flip" for the positive side of the AC pulse to the "Normal HOT" ( Black wire ) of a normal electrical GRID connection, and the Negative pulse of the MSW - AC is done by "Flop" the "Normal Neutral" ( White wire ) of a normal electrical GRID connection.

FOR THIS REASON ALONE It is not a military supplied piece of equipment.

So both output lines of this "military supplied" DC/AC inverter are HOT every half cycle of the 60 HZ MSW. NOT ALLOWED BY THE MILITARY.

They are easily stackable because the only signal needed is a low level MSW - AC like (around 6 to 12 volts).

The only way to be able to use these units like a GRID equivalent AC voltage is to use a 1:1 isolation transformer, where the input is floating and connected to the DC/AC MSW inverter and the secondary output is isolated with one wire grounded ( White wire) and the other the HOT ( Black wire) -- additional expense indeed.

For the site that sells such pieces of equipments CAVEAT EMPTOR. -- and keep yourself at least 10000 leagues away from them.

INCLUDING THE PM ALTERNATORS THEY PROMULGATE.

Nando

[ Parent ]

Re: 24 VOLT INVERTER (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by brianschanafelt (brianschanafelt@yahoo.com) on Mon Jan 14th, 2008 at 12:01:16 PM MST
(User Info)

i also had a question about the 24 volt inverter 220v output could i use the inverter to supply my house. and branch of the inverter to split the phases to two 110v wires. i know that is how u do it on 220v that is supplied to the house from edison. i dont know if this is possible to do or not any info is a great help. and would it be possible to run a welder off of the inverter. or is it just not practacal.
"something free is money well spent"

24 VOLT INVERTER | 16 comments (16 topical, 0 editorial)

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