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coil experimenting &troubleshooting
By spinner, Section Mechanical Posted on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 03:37:55 PM MST
searching for the best combo

9/12 dual rotor 3/16 triangle mags of unknown origon ( bought 'em surplus on a going out of business sale.... no measurement of strength except that when the rotors are within about 2inches or so of one another, I need a puller to safetly work with 'em)
the disks (rotors) are chevy front brake disks.
tore down the winder and replaced the counter ..it was off/erratic.
checked out the strobe disks and replaced the florscent "timing lite"
my experiments have been pointed towards achieving useable output from this machine, not just the most voltage, like I did the first time.
my starting point was eds machine ( the 5oo watt kit) coil output of 2.5v per coil ( the 12v version) with a single #14 conductor having 42 turns. i wanted to see if I could get that voltage using 2 inhand windings of #17 wire with the assumption that amperage would be better.
after getting past my equipment related problems, I learned via lots of winding/unwinding taking measurements, that I cannot FIT a coil with eneough 2 inhand #17 windings on it to hit 2.5 volts ( my benchmark, remember) at under 650-700 rpm which is much higher rpm than eds macnine.
my airgap is about 3/32 to 1/8 inch on either side of the test coil ( actually there has been a succession of test coils ) with both rotors on..that is the closest I can hold it with what I've got around here.
to ensure that I do not have another counter problem I have verified my turn count by
unwinding each coil after testing and manually counting the # of turns and measuring the length of my paralled #17 wires.
testing was done with a resistor accross the coil output that measures about 1.5 ohms(+, - my meters accuracy) in each case the measured output = what it should be via ohms law)
Sorry about the length of this post..I am just trying to include all pertinent info, for a change.
from observing voltage rise vs rpm, the best test coil that FITS within the space available to me: 2 3/4" width, 7/16 thick, 44t of 2 inhand #17/wire, conductor length 26'..hole in coil = magnet size, seems to rise very slowly necessitating a higher rpm (2.5x) to reach the 2.5v target.
IF i understand things correctly, this does not seem correct............
the coil seems to be wound tightly eneough ( using new wire might allow a bit of improvement, dimension wise, not sure how much)the airgap could probably be reduced, top and bottom, by a 1/32 + and the coil position in relation to the magnets is not as good as it would be in a poured stator, it is simply as good as I can make it with what I have, for testing a single coil.
I would appreciate any thoughts/suggestions because you folks always seem to "point the way" when I am stuck.
I am considering 3 inhand #22 as one alternative, but do not want to buy what I don't need which is y I am playing around with used #17 at this point.
thanx
spinner

coil experimenting &troubleshooting | 8 comments (8 topical)

Re: coil experimenting &troubleshooting (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Flux on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 09:44:48 AM MST

"my starting point was eds machine ( the 5oo watt kit) coil output of 2.5v per coil ( the 12v version) with a single #14 conductor having 42 turns. i wanted to see if I could get that voltage using 2 inhand windings of #17 wire with the assumption that amperage would be better."

There will be no difference between 2 in hand #17 and #14, if you have #17 wire that's fine but don't expect any improvement.

I have been following this for a while without having the foggiest idea what you are trying to do. Now at last I think I have gained enough information to have some idea of what you are doing.

If you can't get the same voltage as Ed with the same number of turns then there are 3 issues that could be wrong.

The simplest and most likely is that the magnets are not as strong as Ed's, they could be anything. Your meter may be inaccurate measuring such low voltages or your speed measurement may be wrong.

If you have wound the coil with 2 by #17 in hand and you are wise enough to connect the halves in series rather than parallel to make 88 turns then you should get double the volts at the same speed ( ignore load resistors, do it without load)

If the volts are not exactly double, then suspect the meter.

Also with 44 or 88 turns, if you double the speed then you should get twice the volts, if not You have trouble with speed or voltage measurements.

If all this ties up then you have useless magnets.

I hope this helps, I hadn't realised that you didn't start with Ed's magnets, you can't hope to replicate anything that Ed has done unless everything is the same.
Flux

Re: coil experimenting &troubleshooting (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by spinner on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 03:53:51 PM MST

flux:

guess I wasn't wise eneough, ie, did not think of unsoldering the leads and making the series hookup you mention...will do that as soon as I have finished (if successful ) making a better way to hold a single coil when testing (hard on 'em when a magnet grabs 'em @7 or 800 rpm, as you might imagine!)and rewinding a duplicate coil..should be interesting, to me at least, to see the results.

i found it interesting that in the coils I was experimenting with, especially the last one, that the voltage seemed to rise so much faster as the rpms got up a bit; while they seemed to rise so slowly on the lower end of the rpm scale.I noticed this to be the case more and more as I reduced the number of total windings...not so suprising after I thought about it a bit; less turns means less voltage generated at a given rpm.

the last coil was a result of beginning with a dozen or so turns too many (space wise, if I had been working with a full set of coils) and reducing the number of turns by two each time, then testing again until I had a physical fit.
when I unwound that last coil I found I had removed (don't have my notes in fromt of me, I believe it was 4x16" of wire from the coil and the turns were at 43.

one other observation, if I may: tests with the resistor across the coil did not seem to cause a drag on the machine..perhaps because it was only one coil and not a full set, will find out when I do get a full set made.

I think your suggestions will be of great benefit to me
thanx
spinner

[ Parent ]

Re: coil experimenting &troubleshooting (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by hvirtane on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 02:34:46 PM MST

Hi,

could you, please put up
a picture of your magnet rotors
and the dimensions of your
coils as related to the magnet
dimensions.

It is quite hard to know yet,
where the problem is.

In principle your magnet and
coil relationship should be
like in this picture for 16 magnets
and 12 coils. The coils should be
so big, that the magnet
fits inside the coil. I is better
to use much bigger distances
between the magnets than
in my picture.

Please see also WindStuffEd's
turbine_kit.pdf manual.

- Hannu

Re: coil experimenting &troubleshooting (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by spinner on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 04:05:10 PM MST

oops
sorry, have no camera at present

the coil is/was 2 3/4" wide and a tad under 7/16" thick
the magnet dimensions are/were the same as the hole in the coil

the mags are 3/16" thick and very close, if not identical to the ones ed has for sale.

the mags were laid out via a degree wheel and are equally spaced; I have double checked 'em to be sure that the poles line up correctly with one another on each disk, and with their counterparts on the other disk.

I have read eds material and, while my mags may well be inferior to eds, I needed a benchmark ( the 2.5v) to start my research into what I otta do this time around, for this set of coils

thanx
spinner

[ Parent ]

Re: coil experimenting &troubleshooting (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by windstuffnow on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 08:30:26 PM MST

Hi Spinner,
Are they neo's ? What are the measurements ( top, bottom, height ). Are you sampling the AC voltage or DC after a rectifier? The AC voltage might give you a lower reading than the 2.5 volts. That was measured as rectified DC voltage from the assembled stator at 190 rpm. I'm assuming a reading of around 10.6 volts might be appropriate for the AC reading on a pair ( possibly a little lower ) so a single phase might be at or around 6 volts. In reality your looking to achieve about 2 volts from the coil at 190 rpm. It would be interesting to see some pictures of the set up... pictures will tell the story easier than words in most cases...

.
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]

Re: coil experimenting &troubleshooting (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by spinner on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 07:41:44 AM MST

ed
thank you!
your post helps to ans. a lot of my questions; I am measuring ac from one test coil.
the mags are neos; i think you could lay one atop your 3/16 neos and they would be very nearly the same...didn't actually measure 'em, but I do have (or had) a set of yours and the paper template I made from one seems to bear me out...........
they are not plated and I am not sure what their power is 'cept it takes a puller to handle the top disk safetly when they are anywhere in the 2" apart range!

I used your figure(2.5v) as my baseline when I begin to experiment with inhand winding on a 12 volt machine because, unlike me, you know what you're doin'!

I guess the best explaniation is I want to build this 12v machine right so that it will do the most work which, [to me], means: 12v with sufficent/maximum (hope this is the right term) ampacity it can produce, given what it is made from...pretty common goal 'mongst people on the board, I 'spect.....so I ask Lots of questions this time around, problem is I usually don't ask 'em right, ie info supplied with the question!

my thought is/was that inhand winding might be a worthwhile field of exploration to produce a better machine with that goal in mind, problem seems to be that i keep gettin' myself off on the wrong track...
i have been trying to find, for my own understanding, a "rule of thumb(s)" that ties in inhand vs larger wire size(w/less turns) vs space available on a machine like I am attempting to build
I will photograph my setup(s) with a film camera and post 'em when I get 'em back...

once again, my post has grown too long...............sorry
thanx
spinner

[ Parent ]

Re: coil experimenting &troubleshooting (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by windstuffnow on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 08:05:40 AM MST

Hi Spinner,
If their neo's that are about the same size ( grade unknown ) then I would suspect the spacing ( magnet to magnet ) is off a bit. I run a space of .625 to a maximum of .7 leaving only a .05 + gap on each side of the stator. The stator being no more than .5 thick. After the gap reaches .7 the gauss readings fall off drastically leaving you with very little useful power. As the magnet to magnet gap decreases the output comes up considerably. I've run them at a .375 gap using a .25 stator and the results are pretty impressive. Unfortunately, there isn't much room for coils in that thin of stator. My small 3x4 Lenz turbine on the roof uses a dual rotor with a .25 thick stator and cut in speed is very low using 47 turns of 18 wire. The closer you run them the harder is becomes to assemble/dis-assemble the rotors of course.

Keep going you'll get it!
.
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]

Re: coil experimenting &troubleshooting (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by spinner on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 12:13:05 PM MST

hiya ed,
you are right, I AM running wider clearances mag to coil (by necissity) while experimenting...i have in fact had problems that i am working to solve, holding coil thickness down while experimenting with 2in hand coils.

i wound a 3inhand #17 with 30 turns coil the other nite to see what would happen by starting with no connection between any of the #17 conductors, then paralleling them one at a tme while taking readings each time; then rehooking the strands into a series hookup ( got that idea from Flux ).

no suprises: voltage for the series connection experiment was 3x and climbing @600 rpm over what any of the inhand tests had been....another coi- meets- magnet thing ended the test prematurely!

only thing i have not been able to demonstrate to my own satisfaction is ( and perhaps it does not exist ) the effect of multiple turns of small wire in an inhnad wound coil vs the effect of parallel turns lowering the resistance???? it just seems to me that the more conductors one has cutting thru the magnetic flux the more volt one has generated vs the fact that paralles turns=lower resistance.
know what? I read this 3 times before I posted and I am convinced that in all probability no one but me will make a damn bit of sense out of the question!!!
story of my life *hehe
thanx
spinner

[ Parent ]

coil experimenting &troubleshooting | 8 comments (8 topical)

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