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Beyond Jerry Rigging (Some Alternator Design Considerations)


By finnsawyer, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 04:29:56 PM MST
When I saw Jerry's rigged circuit I realized that it didn't require three phase sinusoidal waveforms.

Each phase could be a series of positive and negative pulses.  It led to the following train of thought.  Suppose we start with a rotor having circular magnets one inch in diameter two inches apart on center.  The nine coils are two inches in diameter with a one inch center hole and one inch thick.  Pretty standard stuff.  Well, maybe the coils are a little small.  What if we decide to use coils three inches in diameter?  What must we do, and what happens?  Well, let's place the magnets three inches apart to keep the scale.  To do this we must increase the rotor diameter by 50%.  What happens?  Well, with the magnets farther apart we expect less leakage flux, so there will somewhat more flux passing through a coil when it is directly over a magnet.  That's good.  The magnets are still located at thirty degree intervals, so the time it takes for a magnet to pass between two coils doesn't change.  That is, the rate at which the flux changes with time doesn't change.  The maximum flux passing through a coil is slightly greater, and we change from this value to the negative of it in the same time as before, so with more turns of wire we get a larger voltage out.  The wave form pretty much stays sinusoidal.  Now, since we've gone fron a two inch diameter coil to a three inch diameter coil we can pack two and two thirds as much copper in the coil.  Or get in excess of two and two thirds more voltage using the same size wire.  

We could instead keep the same amount of wire and decrease the thickness of the coils, thereby reducing the air gap.  In principle, this should increase the maximum flux.  But here we run into a sad fact of life.  Iron can saturate magnetically.  In fact, the modern magnets are so powerfull that they may be driving the iron components into saturation to start with.  To put it another way, as we reduce the reluctance of the air gap,which does go down by a large amount, the reluctance of the iron parts of the magnetic path may also go up by a large amount.  So, the gain may be less than spectacular.

Since copper is cheaper than magnets, it would appear that going to larger rotors, larger coils, and greater magnet spacings might be desirable.    

Beyond Jerry Rigging (Some Alternator Design Considerations) | 23 comments (23 topical)

Re: Beyond Jerry ) (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Flux on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:07:53 AM MST

The idea is sound but like everything else there has to be a compromise.

It is not a good idea to place the magnets too close together, but the spacing doesn't have to be particularly wide to avoid most of the leakage so in your case you will not see much increase in flux.

You do have more room for winding, but you are considerably increasing the length of the outer turns and this will offset some of your gain from room to use a larger section.

Reducing the air gap gives a higher flux density but reduces available winding area.
Small gaps have more dead space as we need mechanical clearance that we can't use.

Most of your benefit is based on the assumption that the wider magnet spacing will gain a lot of useful flux ( less leakage). with round magnets in particular the gain will be small and I tend to agree with Dan that it is better to loose a bit of flux and save on resistance. But You are right that to some extent you can trade the cost of magnets for the cost of copper.

We need another Jerry with enough patience to try the various combinations and really see what works best.  It is surprising how far you can change things with little effect on the results as long as you don't go silly.

The other temptation is to try and use the dead space in the centre of the coils. This requires overlapped coils and the advantage as seen at first is soon offset by increased lengths of turn and a painfully difficult winding process.

From the economy of magnet point of view the axial design is not the best, but it is easy for home construction and allows a quick means of changing flux density.
Flux



With Jerry (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by richhagen on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 02:31:47 PM MST

I had built a jig to test coils with wave type windings, and got good results in some very basic preliminary testing. Ed's 6.5 foot machine is wired this way as well and he reports good results.  I am planning to experiment with stator design to economize the efficiency so that I can build an improved saw blade size machine.  I would like to utilize the 'dead' space so that I can get more copper into a thinner stator.  I am planning to build one with the more normal coil arrangment in 3 phase, and one with the wave windings to compare.  I hope to build a jig to test this on my lathe to test the outputs.  I hope to design these to use the 18" cnc blades I make and 1 by 1/2 by  1/4 inch neo's, 12 per rotor.  I have been watching Jerry's, Hiker's, and Ed's endeavors in their smaller machines with great interest.  Rich Hagen
'A Joule saved is a Joule made'
[ Parent ]


Beyond Jerry Rigging (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Slingshot on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:13:58 AM MST

Finsawyer,
There is certainly some advantage to be gained by going to larger diameter.  But it seems there would be an optimum magnet spacing for a given coil layout, independent of diameter.

For example, the voltage on a turn of wire is proportional to the rate of change of magnetic flux encircled by that turn.  So, if we assume that the flux between the two opposing magnets is straight line, then two things become fixed ... first, the hole in the center of the coil should be no larger than the magnet, otherwise the encircled flux would become non-changing while the magnet moved within the "hole" and the voltage would try to drop.  Second, we'd want to space the magnets so that the "S" pole enters the edge of the coil just as the "N" pole begins to leave the center.  That would produce the maximium rate of change of flux for a given travel speed of the magnets.

Unfortunately all of this is complicated by the fact that the coil turns vary in diameter because they are wound flat and wide to reduce air gap.  So what you actually have is a bunch of turns (voltage sources) of different diameters hooked in series to make up the coil.  The outer turns are too large, ie do not meet the criteria of having a hole the size of the magnet.  The inner turns are too small, ie the "S" pole doesn't enter the turn until long after the "N" pole has exited.  The result is that the voltage never equals the theoretical and so we have to use "test coils" to verify what we're actually going to get.  The only way around this would be to use iron cores in the coils, so that you could assume that substantial flux changes occur only when the magnets pass over the cores, and this would then make all turns (inner and outer) have the same voltage peaking at the same time.

I expect that none of "our" (I'm being liberal here since I haven't built mine yet - my homebuilt uses a PM motor) alternators are likely to produce a true sinusoidal output, nor are they going to produce theoretical voltage, because the turns of a coil are not "in phase" with one another.

For example, I think a coil with a large center hole, coupled with wide magnet spacing, would produce high third-harmonic distortion.  While the magnet is moving across the hole, the encircled flux is not changing, therefore the voltage drops.  I could extend this argument to a large, wide coil with a small center hole because many of the individual turns still have large "center holes".  These turns contribute nothing to the coil's output while the magnet is merely moving within the center hole of that particular turn.

As a result, I think it might not be productive to take advantage of larger rotors by "spreading out" the coils - the outer turns will spend a lot of time not contributing because the magnet is moving totally inside the "hole" of those turns.



Re: Beyond Jerry Rigging (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by finnsawyer on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 08:22:18 AM MST

Your statement that the flux within a large loop doesn't change much for a time when it is over the magnet is interesting and true.  Still, by the time the loop is centered over the opposite pole the flux has changed sign.  This means that at some point the flux must change very rapidly for that loop.  That's exactly what we want to get the greatest voltage.  Of course, what we get is an average at any time from all of the loops.  Oh yeah, all the loops in the coil will contribute to the voltage.  It is inconceivable that all the flux could leak out of the wide loops, as was implied in another comment.
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: Beyond Jerry Rigging (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by BigBreaker on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:13:35 PM MST

It is silly to have coils with an inside area or diameter larger than your magnets.  Current is created by the change in magnetic flux.  If the coil is much larger than the magnet the current will drop when the magnet is in the center of the coil.  Why?  Because at that point the flux through the coil is no longer changing.  The magetic's flux will all be captured over a certain "pie" of rotation and "all" is a fixed amount.  The failure of the flux to change causes ZERO current in the coils.  Not what you want.



Re: Beyond Jerry Rigging (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by Slingshot on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 01:07:19 PM MST

Unfortunately, there are always compromises.  Every coil design I have seen posted for axial-flux machines has had many turns with holes substantially larger than the magnets, often larger by a factor of two.

While the "center" turns of the coil are generally sized to be about magnet size, turns of wire further to the outside are much larger.  So, in a 50-turn coil, there is a segment of rotation where many of the turns are contributing nothing.  

You could, as an alternative, stack the turns higher and keep the holes all closer to magnet-sized.  This would make the coil thicker, forcing an increase in air gap.  So it's a trade-off - lots of experimenters with "test coils" have apparently homed in on the current practice.

[ Parent ]



Re: Beyond Jerry Rigging (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by kitno455 on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 02:37:47 PM MST

"Every coil design I have seen posted for axial-flux machines has had many turns with holes substantially larger than the magnets, often larger by a factor of two."

uhm- then perhaps you are not looking at the units that our hosts have built? i would says that nearly every design posted on this site is for holes to be <= the size of the mags. and anyone who comes here with a picture of a too-big coil is generally told so, just look at all the harddrive mag genny postings lately...

allan

[ Parent ]



Re: Beyond Jerry Rigging (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Slingshot on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 04:17:14 PM MST

I am referring specifically to the machines built by our hosts.  Remember, every individual coil consists of many turns in series.  Each "turn" generates a voltage according to the time rate of change of flux enclosed by it's "hole".  Only the small center turns in each coil are sized to the magnets, and the windings outside those are larger.  The outer winding on a given coil may be twice the size of the magnet, and that's the actual "hole" size for that turn.

As I noted in an earlier post, this arrangement is necessary in order to compromise between coil efficiency and air gap.  You could make every turn about the same size as the magnet, ie make the coil thicker instead of wider, but then your air gap would have to increase.

It's a trade-off, and that's a good reason for checking single test coils before potting a stator.

[ Parent ]



Re: Beyond Jerry Rigging (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by kitno455 on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 05:07:23 PM MST

right- gotcha. mis-read your post. you say hole, and i think 'in the middle of the coil'. you meant 'in the middle of each individual turn'.

there is one way around this compromise. i am gathering the parts to build one now.

torus machine, with iron wire core, and mags on three sides (two axial, one radial). harder to wind stator, harder to build mag rotors, harder to adjust airgap, harder to support stator, and adds iron losses. but, i think perhaps still useful as there is much less 'dead' space in each coil, and lots of small coils could be rectified independently, making dozens of phases with no cogging.

allan

[ Parent ]



Re: Beyond Jerry Rigging (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Slingshot on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 05:29:01 PM MST

I'm not familiar with the term "torus" machine, but it sounds interesting.  Can you direct me to some reading material?

[ Parent ]


Re: Beyond Jerry Rigging (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by electrondady1 on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:33:02 PM MST

a descripion of torus layouts can be found in the archives with google search but i can't see getting involved with iron inside the mag field anymore, it's a pain. i'm of the opinion there is room for improvement in regards to overlaping coils and in addressing the issue of coil center growth on the otside windings. the coil structure we use now is only a convienience. an ideal coil would have each leg of each loop over a magnet.

[ Parent ]


Re: Beyond Jerry Rigging (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by ghurd on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:51:04 PM MST

""While the "center" turns of the coil are generally sized to be about magnet size, turns of wire further to the outside are much larger.  So, in a 50-turn coil, there is a segment of rotation where many of the turns are contributing nothing.""

That is why I believe the center hole should be smaller than the magnet.  2V canceling 2V doesn't seem relavent if the battery is 12V. Who cares if that 2V part is lost? It didn't do anything but waste space and add resistance.

When the RPM is high enough the 2V counts for something the mill should be furled anyway, right?  So why have the wasted space and copper and resistance. Use fewer turns of heavier wire and closer magnets.

Thats all related to coil width, the leg height should be about as big as the magnet.  Round or square magnets should have wedge or egg shaped coils.

Maybe the coil hole should be 80% of the leg, and 2 touching legs should total 120% of the magnet.

Dan calls it compromise.
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]



Re: Beyond Jerry Rigging (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by finnsawyer on Fri Feb 17, 2006 at 09:14:34 AM MST

A coil having a smaller diameter than the magnets will also have a "dead" zone where its voltage drops to zero.  On top of that you capture less flux to start.  A coil having a diameter of 80% that of the magnets will capture only 64% of the flux.  You've cut the amount of copper (resistance) down by 20%, but the flux by 36%.  This doesn't appear to be a good thing.
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: Beyond Jerry Rigging (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by ghurd on Fri Feb 17, 2006 at 09:37:40 AM MST

No idea how you find the 36% and 64%, but I trust you.
(Unless you thought I meant change a 1x1" coil to 0.8x0.8")

The copper resistance will go down by less than 20%. Maybe ~9%? The coil legs still need to be full length, so the only gain would be the top and bottom of the coil using less copper.  Like a 1x2" coil changed to 0.8x2", or 1x1" to 0.8x1".
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]



Re: Beyond Jerry Rigging (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by finnsawyer on Fri Feb 17, 2006 at 10:46:58 AM MST

I was sticking with circular magnets and coils.  On reflection I guess you really need to consider the radius of the center of the wire.  With the rectangular magnets and coils you will still have a dead zone and enclose less flux.  It still seems like the percent reduction in flux will be greater than the percent reduction in resistance, since the end legs of the coils are not changed.  I see no reason to give up that amount of flux.  
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: Beyond Jerry Rigging (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by finnsawyer on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 07:59:26 AM MST

The inside diameter of the coils in this example exactly fit the magnet diameter of one inch.  I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear.
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: Beyond Jerry Rigging (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by Flux on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 09:34:06 AM MST

I don't follow this concern about the hole size, if it is the size of the magnet then the flux will link it. The fact that the "hole" in the larger turns is bigger doesn't mean that there is no voltage induced in them. Taken to extremes it will certainly produce a funny waveform but over the range you are proposing it will not make much difference and as you say it doesn't have to be a sine wave to charge a battery.

I still maintain that you will gain up to the point where extra resistance from turn length is greater than the gain from more space to use extra csa of wire. It will be a heavier and less compact machine but you will achieve your goal of trading magnet for copper. I don't think you could hope to take it much beyond the stated dimensions without loosing.
Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Beyond Jerry Rigging (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by Slingshot on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 10:34:41 AM MST

Flux wrote: 'The fact that the "hole" in the larger turns is bigger doesn't mean that there is no voltage induced in them.'

Flux,

Consider one turn of wire, call it the only turn or the outside turn, or whatever.  Let the "hole" be much larger than the magnet.

A voltage is induced on that "turn" only while the enclosed flux is changing.  So, as the magnet crosses into the hole, you get a voltage, as it moves out you get a voltage of opposite polarity.  

But, during the time when the magnet and it's flux pattern is moving entirely within the hole, the amount and polarity of encircled flux is not changing, even though the magnet is moving.  The voltage for that turn will return toward zero.

I suppose you could plot the open-circuit voltage waveform - instead of a pseudo-sine wave with a normal zero crossing, there would be a finite span of time where it would remain at zero before resuming change.  In a large coil, you'd be adding this waveform in series with the better-behaved turns nearer the center.

[ Parent ]



Re: Beyond Jerry Rigging (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by Flux on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 11:20:14 AM MST

I agree that there will be a change in waveform between the inner and outer turns and as I said, if you take the situation to extremes then things will fall apart, but with any normal coil that is distributed rather than concentrated at one point there will be a large range of magnet separation where the coil voltage will be fairly close to a sine wave.

Most of these ironless alternators give much nearer sinewaves than slotted core machines.

I agree that the waveform issue is a factor against increasing the magnet spacing to a silly extent, but I am still convinced that the killer is extra resistance rather than reduction in voltage.

There may be secondary effects of harmonics on the rectifier operation and with some spacings delta may be more badly affected than with others .

These various opinions on the various factors does show that there is likely to be some room for improvement, but there will never be a perfect design as various people want to trade off different things to achieve their aim.
Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Beyond Jerry Rigging (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by finnsawyer on Fri Feb 17, 2006 at 10:29:45 AM MST

I notice that some people seem to have trouble grasping that there are two independent factors that affect the output voltage, namely the maximum amount of magnetic flux enclosed by a loop and how fast that flux changes.  You need to consider both factors.  In my examples the time that it takes for a coil to move from being centered over a north pole to being centered over a south pole doesn't change.  When a coil is centered over a magnet, the voltages from all the turns in the coil drop momentarily to zero.  As the rotor continues to move, the larger loops will contribute a non zero voltage later than the smaller loops (but at a larger peak value).  As mentioned this may tend to flatten the output waveform relative to a sine wave, so the peak voltage is reduced.  Of course, more turns should more than compensate for this.  A flattened waveform is not necessarily bad when charging batteries.  Once the voltage exceeds the sum of the battery voltage and the diode voltage drops, current will flow.  With a flattened waveform current will flow for a longer part of the cycle, possibly giving a larger average current (generally in rectifier circuits the rectifier current flows for only a short time near the peak of the input voltage waveform, meaning that the peak diode current can be many times larger than the average load current).  Diodes have a peak current rating that should not be exceeded, as the heat generated can not be taken away fast enough internally from the junction.  The resistance of the alternator will also be more important in limiting the current for higher peak diode currents.

In a alternator having two rotors with magnets the magnetic flux will tend to stream tightly between the opposing magnets.  When a coil is positioned directly between two magnets all the turns or loops will contain the same amount of flux.  In the case of a single rotor with magnets, there will be more tendency for the flux to spread as it flows to the iron backing of the coil (its trying to get to the neighboring magnets).  This means that the outer turns of the coils near the backing will actually enclose more flux than the inner turns.  This kind of turns the whole thing on its ear.

Being able to use more copper also means one can do a trade off between number of turns and wire size.

Going to a larger rotor using the same magnets and more copper wire may also be a way to salvage a rotor design that doesn't quite make it without having to buy new magnets.  I hope people won't be afraid to experiment.
GeoM
[ Parent ]



Re: Beyond Jerry Rigging (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by BigBreaker on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 12:45:22 PM MST

Quick reply to a bunch of comments:

#1  The hole is bigger than the magnet for most of the windings on DanB (and others) machines.  Yes, I noticed!  I thought about that too but I didn't want to get into the details when explaining the folly of coils with more area than the magnets.

#2  The waveform may not drop to zero immediately when the magnetic is directly over a "DanB" coil but only because of the coil's self-inductance - IE the current maintaining quality of a coil.  That energy can get sucked out very easily on a loaded machine.  Don't argue with me on this one... it's all Faraday's fault.  A simplification of his law for coils is V=-N*d(phi)/dt.  No d(phi), no voltage!

[ Parent ]



Re: Beyond Jerry Rigging (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by Slingshot on Fri Feb 17, 2006 at 08:26:40 AM MST

Those are good observations.  

There is also one other factor that may prevent the voltage from dropping to zero so rapidly on the outer turns - the magnet spacing.  While it's true that a magnet moving wholly within the "too-large" hole of an outer turn induces no voltage, if the next magnet in line is spaced closely enough then it may have already begun to cross into that same hole.  The new magnet "moving in" would induce a flux change of the correct polarity to keep the voltage going.

Many, many tradeoffs.

[ Parent ]



Re: Some More Alternator Design Considerations (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by finnsawyer on Mon Feb 20, 2006 at 10:03:26 AM MST

I've been thinking about this situation in light of the fact that some coils will encounter dead zones where their flux will not change with time.  As we go from the original configuration to the larger spacing we can double the number of turns in the coils.  This means that each coil cuts twice as much flux.  As a coil moves from centered on a north pole to centered on a south pole in say one second there is now twice as much change in the flux as in the first case.  This means twice as much voltage.  Furthermore this is an average.  There are a couple of ways this could result.  One is to scale the voltage waveform up by a factor of two.  The other is to raise some parts of the waveform more than others.  In other words there is no guarantee that we will increase the peak voltage by a factor of two.

It is possible to get some feel for this by considering the point at which the coil is exactly centered between the magnets.  Consider a coil just one winding thick.  At this time the flux passing through each turn of the coil will be zero for either case, but the flux will be changing due to the motion.  In the first case the smallest turn will just fit the space.  Its contribution to the total voltage will be small or zero.  Every other turn will cover equal amounts of the north and south magnets.  Hence, they will have non zero voltages.  The larger turns will have larger voltages since they will sweep larger areas of the magnets initially as they move.  This results in some value of total voltage.  In the second case half the turns will be smaller than the magnet spacing.  Since they are in a dead zone they will contribute nothing to the voltage.  Again, there will be a turn or loop that just fits between the magnets.  This again gives zero or a very small voltage.  The remaining half of the turns extend equally over both poles as before.  But, because they have a larger radius or smaller curvature than the equivalent turns before, each one will cover more of the magnet than in the first case.  This means that each turn will now sweep out a greater area of the magnets initially, giving a greater voltage.  Since we have the same number of turns contributing as before, this means that a greater total voltage is generated, which when we take into account the 1.5 times greater sweep rate means we will get an increase in the peak voltage at this particular point in time that is greater than 1.5 times the corresponding voltage in the first case.  Whether it will reach 2.0 times or greater is not obvious.  If it doesn't it means that the entire waveform is broadened to increase the average voltage by a factor of two.
GeoM



Beyond Jerry Rigging (Some Alternator Design Considerations) | 23 comments (23 topical)
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