Go to Otherpower.com Home Page Go to Forcefield Shopping Cart Go to Wondermagnet.com Home Page
Front Page - [Homebrewed Electricity-- (wind) (solar) (hydro) (steam) (controls) (storage) (mechanical)] - Classifieds - Site News
Everything - Newbies - [Remote Living-- (housing) (heat) (light) (water)] - Reviews - Diaries - Our Products
Using Capacitors to charge batteries


By pisces00797, Section Controls
Posted on Mon Feb 20, 2006 at 04:16:59 PM MST
Is this a good idea or bad?

Just would like some input on the idea of using capacitors to temporatorily store power from a genny ... and discharging the capacitors to charge the batteries.

I'm wondering if it would warrant exploring the possiblity to use a group of large capacitors (ie. microwave scavanged capacitors) to store the energy from a windmill and then discharge the capacitors into the batteries. The charging of each capacitor would be cycled through the charge and discharge by low power relays. The windmill would first charge the capacitor to the maximum voltage available and then be disconnected from the windmill ... the windmill would charge another capacitor. After being disconnected, the charged capacitor with be discharged into a battery.

If my thinking is correct, wouldn't this 'unload' the windmill from a 'dead short' into a battery directly ... as the capacitor would handle the heavy discharge.

I'm thinking of perhaps a group of 4 capacitors to be cycled through charging and discharging. 1 capacitor charging ... 1 capacitor discharging ... with a 'resting' capacitor between each charge and discharge state.

Not really thinking of high outputs. But if it was a workable idea, wouldn't it help with low wind energy capture? By not having a dead short working against the genny, at low wind (and rotational) speeds? . The genny could get its rotational speed up and therefore it's voltage. The capacitors would be handling the dead short to the batteries when they wouldn't be connected to the generator. I suspect there would be heat issues on the capacitors as the energy stored and released would increase.

Anyway ... just some thoughts. Ideas???

Has anyone done anything like this?

Using Capacitors to charge batteries | 13 comments (13 topical)

Re: Using Capacitors to charge batteries (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Mon Feb 20, 2006 at 10:01:25 AM MST

It would have little effect other than reducing your charging, increasing your costs and number of points of failure, reducing your efficiency, risking a runaway mill and risking a capacitor explosion.

The ONLY thing that matters for how much charge you put on your batteries is how much current you drive through them.

(Things like pulse charging at high voltages have to do with breaking down sulfation on batteries that have partially sulfated without overheating them by driving the current continuously, or driving an equlizing charge through the fully charged cells to top off the undercharged ones during normal cycling without taking the whole bank up to an overvoltage.)

If you haven't let your batteries go down to dead-flat there is no load on the mill until it is up to the speed where it generates the voltage the batteries are sitting at.  (The "cutin speed".)  Once your capacitors have an initial charge your system would present this same load to the mill when each capacitor switched in - but if the mill had been stopped long enough for the capacitors to self-discharge it would present a load at lower speeds or at stop - exactly what you seem to be trying to avoid.

You lose efficiency because you have to charge your capacitors at a higher voltage than the battery voltage.  The extra power goes into heating your wiring - particularly the initial contact spot on your relay contacts when they close to connect the capacitors to the batteries.  You'll quickly weld your relays in that position - assuming they didn't weld in the other position from the inductive kick when they tried to disconnect the capacitors from the mill, or the similar inrush surge when they reconnect the partially discharged capacitor to the mill and try to suddenly slow it down to a speed corresponding to the voltage on the capacitor.  (Of course you'll probably never get that far because that latter inrush will pop your diodes.)

Now there IS an approach that will somewhat related to this that can get more out of your mill by playing with switched reactances.  It's called a "maximum power point controler".  It involves switching an INDUCTOR around, letting current build up in it at one voltage, then switching it to deliver the energy as a different amount of current into a different voltage, with a "free-wheeling" diode to provide extra current from ground if you're configured for a current boost, or to block back-current if you're cofigured for a voltage boost.  A capacitor is used on the input side to accumulate power while the inductor is in the delivery part of the cycle.  (A capacitor is also used to store power on the output side for devlivery while the inductor is in the acceptance part of the cyce if you're providing a regulated voltage to a load.  But this is unnecessary for battery charging operation  - except to reduce radio interference from the current switching by reducing the voltage swing rate.)  Think of it as an electronic "transformer" for DC, swapping current for voltage with the current-voltage product unchanged (except for ineficieny losses).

You COULD do this with relays in cycles with timescales in seconds.  But you'd need honiking big capacitors and inductors.  Instead it's usually done at a high audio or ultrasonic rate using transistors for the switches, because the size of the inductors and capacitors are proportional to the inverse of the frequency.  Running at 10 kilohertz requires inductors and capacitors 1/10,000th as large as running on one-second cycles.

The voltage ratio and current draw of this "DC transformer" can be adjusted by adjusting the on and off times - both their size and their ratio.  So a smart controller can observe the current and voltage (or current and frequency) from the mill, deduce the wind, compute the ideal operating load for maximum power, and adjust the switcher to let the mill run at that speed and load, transforming the voltage to what's necessary for charging the battery and getting as much charging current as the available energy will produce.

But that involves a bit of electronics to "think about" what to do and produce the drive current for the switching transistor(s) with the appropriate on and off times.



Re: Using Capacitors to charge batteries (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Mon Feb 20, 2006 at 10:21:42 AM MST

Tweaks:

swapping current for voltage  or voltage for current.

(A capacitor ... store power on the output side ... is unnecessary for battery charging operation  - except to reduce radio interference from the current switching by reducing the voltage swing rate.)  Such a radio-interference-suppression capacitor can be MUCH smaller than one that's there to deliver power with little droop over much of a cycle.  Batteries are happy with pulsing charge during drain.

(SOME types of batteries - like carbon/zinc - are HAPPIER with pulse charging with a load applied during charging - it reduces the tendency to produce "whiskers" that short the plates, smoothing the pates out and making the batteries last longer.  This is because the focusing of electirc field in the narrow spots increases both metal buildup during charging and metal removal during discharging - but increases removal more than buildup.  Charge them and they build whiskers.  Pulse charge them, taking off about 10% of what you put on between pulses, and they end up smooth.  Doesn't matter for lead-acids, though, since the metal isn't put into solution during discharge and potentially plated out somewhere else.  It just changes to a compound that sits in the same place until recharge.)

[Switching regulation is] usually done at a high audio or ultrasonic rate ... because the size of the inductors and capacitors are proportional to the inverse of the frequency.  It usually isn't done at still higher rates (like UHF) to produce truly tiny devices because there's a small amount of power lost "sweeping" the charge carriers out of the switching transistors and diodes each cycle, and the rapidly changing current tends to stay near the surface of the wiring in the inductor, increasing its effective resistance.  This raises losses with frequency, and they start becoming annoying somewhere in the high ultrasound / low radio frequencies.  Also:  While you can easily suppress the harmonics it's tough to suppress the fundamental, so you want to run your device at a frequency range that's not going to jam some radio service if it leaks radio energy.

[ Parent ]



Re: Using Capacitors to charge batteries (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Roamer195 on Mon Feb 20, 2006 at 10:29:07 AM MST

P,

You should try this with a small, low voltage/low wattage windmill, if you really want to experiment. Overvoltage, unloaded runaways, etc..., are things to think about, as has been said. You'd probably be better off simply leaving the generator connected to the capacitor the whole time and just limit the duration of the discharge pulse into the batteries.

I think you'll find that microwave capacitors have too little capacitance to be of much use.

A large electrolytic (something larger than 100,000uf) will work better.

A 1 Farad stereo capacitor would cost you about $80, and they're readily available.

Just make sure your power source doesn't exceed the voltage ratings for the capacitor you're using.

Make all the connections between the capacitor and the batteries with short lengths of #4 battery cable, or heavier. The discharge contacts, or heavy solid-state switch will be dumping that capacitor in a split-second. I've done this with copper contacts made from hammered-flat water pipe. You'll need to replace the commutator contact and the POSITIVE discharge contact periodically. The negative contact doesn't get too chewed up, even with extended run-time.

Watch across the capacitor with a scope. You should see a slow charging ramp, then a nearly vertical drop as the cap discharges into the batteries.

You'll also see the battery voltage start "sloshing" up and down in a wavy fashion that isn't necessarily indicative of the frequency of the input pulses. Neat.

Yes, the battery charges very nicely, as will be seen when you run a load from the battery and see the work being done. Use a controlled charging source for the capacitor for your first tests. That way you can calculate the joules used for charging and the joules used in the known test load. This will give you your overall charging efficiency.

Once you've watched one of these setups charging a battery bank, you might begin to ask yourself how the bank can possibly be charging (voltage stays high) between pulses?

Good question. Wish I had a good answer. Since it works just fine on new batteries, over and over, I don't believe that it's all about desulphation.

R



Re: Using Capacitors to charge batteries (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Roamer195 on Mon Feb 20, 2006 at 12:20:00 PM MST

I forgot to mention that this basic setup, consisting of a large capacitor and a rotating switch (or solid state device) does a fine job of milking power from otherwise unusably low wind-speeds.

 They also use very similar circuits inside some small PV "trickle charger" panels. But, those are very small capacitors.

 The basic system is dirt cheap and works very well.

 But, for a larger system, you'd probably want to set up an over-voltage bypass. That way, when the winds start stepping up the genny is fully loaded with the battery bank. When the winds drop off, the system falls back into ramp-charging the capacitor.

 The circuitry should be relatively simple and relatively cheap, compared to what's available commercially. The overvoltage bypass need only consist of a heavy SCR in parallel with the normal discharge switch. The place a zener diode between the gate and the SCR anode so that the arrow points back at the SCR anode. You could probably use a 5v zener.

 This assumes that the normal discharge switch is continuously running at all times.

 If the generator pushes the capacitor voltage beyond 5v above battery voltage, the SCR turns on and stays on until the regular pulse switch makes contact. That switch will momentarily bypass the SCR, causing it to shut off. Then the process repeats.

During low winds, the capacitor probably won't make it up to 5v above battery between pulses, so the SCR doesn't ever turn on in low winds, only in strong winds.

So, the whole system consists of a large capacitor, a rotating discharge switch (or solid-state), a heavy-duty SCR, and a 5v zener diode. Cheap and effective.

 I believe Jerry has built some solid-state cap discharge systems. You might want to ask him how they worked out.

Here's one link I found from a while back:

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/3/22/22166/7418

R

 

[ Parent ]



Re: Using Capacitors to charge batteries (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by Opera House on Mon Feb 20, 2006 at 11:32:43 AM MST

That reminds me of a manager years ago.  When a customer would ask "if you can do this" with a piece of equipment, he would always reply; "You can do that."  He never lied, he ment that you can do that if you want, but he wasn't going to do it.  Industry has been building switch mode power supplies for over 30 years and has dtermined that capacitors are not the best way to do it.



Re: Using Capacitors to charge batteries (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Slingshot on Mon Feb 20, 2006 at 12:03:01 PM MST

Practically, any capacitor you are likely to salvage will have an energy capacity far lower than a chemical battery.

Capacitors that store one Joule of energy are considered large.  A joule is one watt-second; by comparison deep-cycle batteries are commonly around 1 KWH (3.6 million Joules).  

So, while it's possible to do what you propose, the capacitor storage is so small that it would need to be filled and transferred at a very high frequency.  Of course, when you use a capactitor to "smooth" a rectified waveform, this is essentially what you are doing.

Of course, it is debateable whether smoothed or pulsating DC is preferred in a battery-storage system.



Re: Using Capacitors to charge batteries (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by pisces00797 on Mon Feb 20, 2006 at 12:47:09 PM MST

Thanks everyone ... lots of info

I understand that the energy holding capabilities of a capacitor are far less than that of a battery ... the idea i was tossing around was more to the point of only using the capacitor as a temporary storage device between cycling ... being charged by the windmill ... then being disconnected from the mill and discharging into the battery bank. The point of this being more that the windmill would not directly see the resistive load when windspeed is slow. There would be a point where the mill would need direct connection to the batteries as the maximum transfer rate from the capacitors would be exceeded. At that point the windmill would charge directly without the capacitors. I'm not really concerned about the pulsing that this would create. The energy transfer wouldn't be damaging (i don't think) what ever its cycling or pulsing. Good or bad.

I guess i'm wondering ... would it be easier to 'push' 18 volts into a capacitor ... or the same ... or more difficult ... as 'pushing' 12.5 volts into a battery at a higher amperage? If the capacitor has no resistance on loading it to 18 volts, wouldn't the windmill see less effect on power generation in low wind?

[ Parent ]



Re: Using Capacitors to charge batteries (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by electrondady1 on Mon Feb 20, 2006 at 01:46:00 PM MST

this is the question for me as well, how does the geni see the cap.? does it start out with low resistance and gradually increase as the capacitor reaches its maximum? does it unload automaticly ? i have no use for charged batteries but can use more power than i could ever generate for resistive heaters.  what sort of cap. could be used  infront of a baseboard heater. hugh piggot has a circuit diaram but it seems so complex.

[ Parent ]


Re: Using Capacitors to charge batteries (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by Roamer195 on Tue Feb 21, 2006 at 07:05:42 AM MST

The generator sees the cap as a growing resistance, as the cap takes on charge. So, less and less loading as it reaches peak voltage.

Ignoring the difference between joules and coulombs for a few moments for the sake of rough estimation.....

A 1 Farad stereo capacitor is no joke. 1 volt pulsed at 1hz is and average of 1 amp.

5v (above battery), pulsed at 10hz is 50amps average, or roughly 600 watts if you're charging a 12v system, 1200 watts @ 20hz, 1800 watts @ 30hz, etc....

This is not a tiny amount of power handling capability and it will handily drive resistive loads as well as charge batteries, acting as an impedance matching device between the genny and the load.

You can do this without PWM electronics. Low power mechanical controllers work quite well and can be made from locally available hardware. Radio shack made a nice little manual on magnetic and optical sensor projects that might prove useful as a study guide.

R

[ Parent ]



Re: Using Capacitors to charge batteries (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Tue Feb 21, 2006 at 07:07:48 AM MST

The genny doesn't see the battery as a resistive load.

The genny sees the battery as a resistive load to a voltage source (with a blocking diode preventing backcurrent.)

So the genny doen't see ANY load when it's spinning below the cutin speed.

So why bother with capacitors?

Especially since the genny will see a discharged capacitor as a load at any non-zero speed?

[ Parent ]



Re: Using Capacitors to charge batteries (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Opera House on Mon Feb 20, 2006 at 03:02:30 PM MST

All these things you want to do are quite easy with a simple switching regulator such as a TL494 or SG3524.  The later has two control inputs so you could set the input voltage that it starts working and a battery voltage it turns off at.  An input cap of 2200uf acts as a mini battery and the chip will produce a proportional pulse at about 30kHz depending on voltage.  Under a voltage there is no load. Try reading the application notes for a couple of days and you will get the idea. All these parts are free in an old PC power supply.  I swear you guys aren't happy unless your electrical system looks like it was developed by Frankenstein with relays and rotaty comutators.



Re: Using Capacitors to charge batteries (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by oztules on Mon Feb 20, 2006 at 04:03:22 PM MST

you make it sound so easy.

The last time I ratted  a pc supply board and built a power supply from the parts, was the last time I locked myself in a room for three weeks to try and get a fix on making a home brew pwm work. It is beyond the capabilities of most people to successfully pirate bits off a pc power supply card, rewind the output tranny build new boards and come out with a result that solves the myriad of problems with this technology. Its very operation relies on the fact that the switches live on the very edge of extinction with every 30-50 thousandth of a second that passes.
Not the kind of thing that you pick up overnight.

 The half bridge topology used on these things would probably be better changed to push pull topology, and the switching transistors supplied would be of no value because they need much higher switching currents than when used on mains voltage.  The shotsky's on the supplies are under voltage for any but a 12v system, the list goes on.. it's not for a novice.

Perhaps better to describe how to change the voltage sensing of the 494(which also has two inputs) so that we can use the power supply as a charger (change output to 13.9v) from 12v, and rewire the mill for 100v or so and at least you can then use the pc as a high impedance input device, with a pwm controlled output....still only 200w.

But for all that added complexity, how much more reliable do you think this will be.And just how much better.

Frankenstein looks the better option for most people, and it wont become magic smoke if the life and death struggle for the switching trannies is lost.

Would be most interested in circuit, and perhaps winding details..... and board layout . Could be a project for some of us who have a death wish for mosfets.. One thing I did learn is that it is best to be armed with a bag full of mosfets and conduct the testing in a deep basement,,,,where no-one can hear the mosfets scream before they disappear into silicon heaven.

maybe out of reach.. for most of us..........oztules




[ Parent ]



Re: Using Capacitors to charge batteries (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by domwild on Mon Feb 20, 2006 at 09:18:41 PM MST

Hi,

Pulse charging has been mentioned as a solution and Jerry has published a NE555- driven pulser circuit running at one Hz (from memory) with a huge capacitor. This charging solution is also recommended for batteries, which have been standing around for a while.

There is a lot of interest in Pulse Width Modulation circuits, MPPT, pulse charging, etc. on this board, but one does not see too many circuits. Glenn Littleford has published a PC/Visual Basic-based circuit for his Picaxe-based MPPT controller.

Lack of circuit diagrams is not meant to be a criticism. It shows a lot of people with a "black belt in electrickery" are interested in spending a lot of time squeezing a few extra watts out of low-wind situations.
dom We only ever use the best fencing wire for our repairs!



Using Capacitors to charge batteries | 13 comments (13 topical)
Display: Sort:
Menu
· create account
· How to use the board
· FAQs
· search the board
· Google search the board

Login
Make a new account
Username:
Password:

Total Views
  113 Scoop users have viewed this posting.

Related Links
· Also by pisces00797

Powered by Scoop
You must be a registered user to post here. It's easy and free, and the link is on the upper right side of your page.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Postings are owned by the poster, but may be deleted or moved at the ADMIN's sole discretion. The Rest © 2009 Forcefield.
You can Email the board ADMIN here. PLEASE include the username you signed up with!