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To make a more powerful generator?


By hvirtane, Section Wind
Posted on Wed May 17, 2006 at 11:09:36 AM MST
Using transformers you could use less turns in coils

Some time ago with a friend of mine we made a mistake to put too few turns in the coils of a wind turbine generator used for battery charging.
The result was that the voltage didn't rise quickly enough and the cut in speed was too high.

The problem was solved by putting in between the generator and the rectifier a ferrite core transformer to rise the voltage. The generator was also connected directly to another rectifier, which was in parallel with the first rectifier. That generator was a single phase axial flux generator.

By using that method one could use thicker magnet wires and less turns in the coils and still have a desired low cut in speed.

The obvious advantage is that there is less resistance in the generator wires and one can take more power out without overheating the stator of the generator.



The proposed circuit for three phase alternators.

With another set of transformers one could have a three step system.

What do you think?

- Hannu

To make a more powerful generator? | 14 comments (14 topical)

Re: To make a more powerful generator? (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by adelaide on Wed May 17, 2006 at 05:29:32 AM MST

cool ideas. i used transformers before and they tend to stall the mill at start up. i used a small transformer to trigger relay to the outer bigger transformers it worked. i think u can use caps and diods to make volt double circuits as well. did your configuration have a drag effect like a transformer? keep experimenting, its fun.



Re: To make a more powerful generator? (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by hvirtane on Wed May 17, 2006 at 06:43:20 AM MST

i used transformers before and they tend to stall the mill at start up.

I think that you anyway need to have the starting speed without any drag. To use such kind of transformers, that the wind rotor can rotate freely with very slow speeds. The blade of that one phase mill was with a really high starting torque. It never went really fast.



The turbine had four blades, about 3,5 m.
The construction of the blades was made with a method, which we developed at that time.






That turbine is not in use now, because there is now on the tower a bigger machine.

- Hannu



Re: To make a more powerful generator? (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by hvirtane on Wed May 17, 2006 at 07:30:48 AM MST

Played with 'Gimp' (GNU Image Manipulation Program) to make the above picture a bit clearer.


- Hannu



Re: To make a more powerful generator? (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by tecker on Wed May 17, 2006 at 07:42:55 AM MST

 The frequency will be a big Question a 50 of 60 cycle transformer won't perform well at 200 cycle they'll just heat up and short There's also a point when primary will choke  the peek voltage  . Keep track of that. Scope the peek to peek on the secondary and match it to the primary at working speeds. You might do better winding your own transformer sec and primary side by side on a fast reacting core.



Re: To make a more powerful generator? (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by Nando on Wed May 17, 2006 at 09:34:13 AM MST

Presently, transformers designed to work por 50 or 60 Hz power, as well, work for 400 Hz power sources..

One needs to realized that the frequency capability ( response) of a transformer depends on the winding inductances and the core capabilities and losses at high frequencies.

So for 50/ 60 Hz the operating frequency may range from 40 to 800 HZ (at the designed input voltages).

If the input voltage is lower at lower frequencies, then the transformer may work well --the winding inductance has to be taken in consideration as well.

There are simple ways to use a regular transformer with a wind mill to vary the generator voltage as needed, using the 50/60 HZ transformers.

One is to isolate the DC resistance of the transformer to allow the wind mill to start rotating -- a large AC capacitor in series with the transformer inputs with a simple relay scheme to short circuit when the capacitor at certain generator voltage or frequency.

Enough for now

Nando

[ Parent ]



The frequency? (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by hvirtane on Wed May 17, 2006 at 08:06:21 AM MST

Tecker: The frequency will be a big Question a 50 of 60 cycle transformer won't perform well at 200 cycle they'll just heat up and short.

Yes, you are certainly right. With the original experiment the transformer stopped letting current through it, when the voltage rose high enough for the current to go directly to the battery. Maybe that would happen quite automatically, if the frequencies of the transformers would be selected well.

I think that it would be good to use ferrite core transformers. Maybe it would need also relays to stop the current to go through the low level voltage transformers, when the voltage rises?

- Hannu



Re: To make a more powerful generator? (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Opera House on Wed May 17, 2006 at 08:56:05 AM MST

My understanding is that usual frequencies are much lower than 50Hz for most generators in a lot of thier range.  In that case, you need a transformer with a much higher rated voltage input to prevent core saturation.  A standard power transformer will work much better at 500Hz than 20Hz.  



Re: To make a more powerful generator? (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Flux on Wed May 17, 2006 at 09:27:17 AM MST

Correct. In fact it is often lower than this at cut in, making the transformers big for their rating.

Ferrite is totally unsuited to this low frequency and would make them several times bigger.

The idea looks attractive but has many snags. If the transformers are reasonably efficient the power will rise rapidly and cause stall so you need to keep them inefficient. You then have a lot of wasted power in normal running which you have to live with or switch the transformers out when the main bridge is conducting. This makes it virtually a star delta scheme and needs a speed switch.

The result is an almost identical scheme to star delta with expensive transformers included.

If you are in a reasonable wind area and want to gain a bit from lower winds it may work reasonably well with more efficient transformers and with lamps to provide some matching resistance for the low speed. If chosen carefully so that the lamps are only glowing in low winds and running brightly when the main bridge is conducting then the non linear resistance of the lamps will work in your favour but even so it will not be a very efficient way and having lamps glowing at you will be a constant reminder.
Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: To make a more powerful generator? (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by tecker on Wed May 17, 2006 at 11:06:56 PM MST


Forgive me if a digress. I 've been patching up golf cart, car batteries and lawn tractor batts  for a while now. They top out fast but low and are past their prime when used to drive a load .  . They seem though to be able to fit in like super  Caps in some ways . Before I ramble too far I'll cut in . I parallel them in at the base of a generator where the run to the load is 100, 200 or what ever It's about 600' to the creek ( no gen set but a small air compressor) . With the batteries in at junction boxes no line losses to speak of (expensive proposition if not for the batts being junk). Also  the gen set can work in front of the bat and the actual voltage drop  running up fast .The only problem is to get  the battery configuration to match the load. I 'm still playing around with that but you might want to think of the interconnecting wire as a device .



Re: To make a more powerful generator? (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by hvirtane on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:37:59 PM MST

Nando: One is to isolate the DC resistance of the transformer to allow the wind mill to start rotating -- a large AC capacitor in series with the transformer inputs with a simple relay scheme to short circuit when the capacitor at certain generator voltage or frequency.

Enough for now

Nando,
did you mean something like this:



The transformers (2) are step down transformers to let the voltage of the alternator to go higher than the voltage of the battery. The relays will stop the current going through the step up transformers (1), when the voltage is high enough.

The step up transformers (1) will let the alternator to charge the battery at low RPM, but the capacitors will pulse the current to prevent the wind rotor of stalling?

- Hannu



Re: To make a more powerful generator? (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by oztules on Fri May 19, 2006 at 07:16:15 PM MST

Well Hannu

I think that with the proper care and attention to detail,  and a little extra thought, you may well get this to a stage of complication that will have nasa scratching their heads.

Whilst the scheme would work, I can't help but feel that you have managed to introduce so many extra parts so as to make a simple mill, over complex and lossy.

It would be simpler to build a new stator..... or if you want to get serious, then do what Flux suggested in  "matching the load". By the simple use of the booster, you can wind the stator to 1/4th the R of the usual design .... 1/2 the turns, twice the sq mm. V squared /R gives you tons more power handling at the higher power levels with no loss devices in the way. At low power, the boost provides the lift, and mostly at 85-95%. The capacitors and transformers will likely be well under this, as the low frequencies will inhibit good transformer and cap characteristics. In fact you are relying on these losses to stop stall, so it cant be efficient , right where you need to harvest the most power from the least resources.

I'm sure you can make the transformer idea to work, but I doubt you will get near the efficiency of Flux's proposition, nor the bullet proof high power part of the equation.... where no parts are used between the alt and the recs.

It is fun to reinvent the wheel, and I'm guilty as hell, but in the end, simple is best.

I've proven that even a dill can design and build the booster in a day that will easily handle the lower speed power, so it's not wish-ware or vapour ware, it is doable and not that hard....... and even if it blows to bits, you still get power at medium and upper windspeeds while you fix it..... ever the optimist.

Just my thoughts on this one

...............oztules

ps like your "station", do the trains still run past?



[ Parent ]



Re: To make a more powerful generator? (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by hvirtane on Sat May 20, 2006 at 06:15:34 PM MST

It is fun to reinvent the wheel, and I'm guilty as hell, but in the end, simple is best.

I'm in very much agreement with the above.

With small permanent magnet axial flux alternators it is OK to use them without any kind of control system as battery chargers even with 50% efficiency.

But we have already seen that when the power of the alternator is reaching a few kilowatts, the heat in the coils is becoming a big problem. If your generator's output is 2 kW and the efficiency is only 50% there is 2 kW heat power heating the coils and the stator. It won't work well in the longer run.

I'm thinking that transformers and simple relays are one of the best technologies for home made systems. I don't like so much electronics with transistors, zener diodes etc. You can't make such things by yourself at home. Transformers you can make.

- Hannu

[ Parent ]



Re: To make a more powerful generator? (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by oztules on Sat May 20, 2006 at 10:22:08 PM MST

Hi Hannu,
well by now i have spent the morning with the new AWP. Nice machine.

It uses a nominal 250v winding. It then goes to a microprocessor controlled unit which monitors the frequency of the mill. When F>40hz, it turns on solid state relays to connect the transformers to the mill. When the f>60hz, it dumps a load across the input to hold the rpm down to a safe level. this is pulse controlled by the processor.

What I'm really saying, is that good use of the the transformer, has been deemed by the commercial people (even from Africa) as a not so simple area to deal in.

Second thing: the size of three phase 2-4kw transformers is something to consider....
small stick welding transformer size . In yours you have two to deal with or six single phase ones. The step up could be smaller, but the step down will have to hold the kilowatts you are going to deal with.

Looking at these complications, I still feel that the easiest and most homemade buildable design is Flux's booster. and rewound stator. I'm in a paddock in the middle of nowhere, a booster was i day from design to completion. A set of transformers which would not work anywhere near as well would be a massive undertaking here....mostly to get the laminations, but would take even then much longer for a less desirable outcome.

It is Danbs design that suffers from heat at 4kw , if rewound for 24v operation with booster, then that could go as high as 8kw, and still have less heat than the 48v windings at 4kw.  W=Esq/R.... E=IR....  R=1/4 original...suddenly your problem with heat is much more managable, with a rewind, and a small booster.

It sticks in my mind, how often the AWP was switching the transformers in a fairly light wind. Relays would not last to long in this application, hence the solid state switching.  

When Flux mentioned that star delta was good in theory but less than fabulous in the real world, I now understand what he meant. Wind does not blow nice and steady. It is fickle and jumpy, and so any switching system that switches in one system and then another is doomed to fatigue sooner rather than later.

His gradient boosting suffers from none of this, so I think it is the simpler , easier, and better way to push the power envelope in the simplest fashion.. and by far the cheapest.

A home brew booster could cost as little as $0-$30, (computer supply could provide most components) you could not contemplate the smallest useful transformer for that, and you need 6...., switching gear and control and still be behind in power generation.

I wish you the best of luck with this one Hannu, but I feel this path has been trodden before, and whilst it works, is not as simple as it first appears, or as robust as we may initially think.

.........oztules



[ Parent ]



Re: To make a more powerful generator? (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by hvirtane on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:28:05 AM MST

If you are in a reasonable wind area and want to gain a bit from lower winds it may work reasonably well with more efficient transformers and with lamps to provide some matching resistance for the low speed. If chosen carefully so that the lamps are only glowing in low winds and running brightly when the main bridge is conducting then the non linear resistance of the lamps will work in your favour but even so it will not be a very efficient way and having lamps glowing at you will be a constant reminder.
Flux

Something like that might be anyway the best way, I think.

Maybe we could have such kind of resistance, in series with the battery, which would give good heating power and automatically prevent the battery of overcharging. Often you can use the heating power for something, too. For example for water preheating.

- Hannu



To make a more powerful generator? | 14 comments (14 topical)
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