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Coil and Bride Recitifier Questions


By HydroCamper, Section Mechanical
Posted on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 01:54:09 AM MST
Coil and Bride Recitifier Questions

Ok, I have three questions.

First question. I notice on several of the articles on this website that it is common to use 12 magnets in wind or hydro project. Interesting to see that some of the designs only have 9 coils. How come? Why not one coil per magnet? Is it because the coils are bigger than the magnets? Could the magnets be spread further apart to allow for more coils? I presume you can get more power with more coils.

Second question: When wiring a generator in star or delta configuration a Bridge Rectifier can be used to convert AC to DC. The problem is that there are 3 wires coming out of star or delta and only two wires going into the Bridge Rectifier. A person could use two Bridge Rectifiers I supose, but what do you do with the four wires coming out of two Bridge Rectifiers? Connect them together? How do you wire 3 phase to a Bridge Rectifier?

Third question: I am considering building a waterwheel type design with (24) 2 x 1 x .5 N40 magnets. I think it makes more sense to put the magnets further out on the water wheel because the speed will be faster than trying to double up the magnets and move them closer in towards the center of the circle. Does that make sense? And can there be a 24 mag / 18 coil arrangement? I presume the wiring for star or delta would run to two coils instead of one. Or could be double the wires?, would that be 6 phase?

Answers are much appreciated.

Travis

Coil and Bride Recitifier Questions | 8 comments (8 topical)

Re: Coil and Bride Recitifier Questions (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by sh123469 on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 08:55:57 PM MST

Hi Travis,

First, It's always nice to have someone new on the board.  A little time and reading of the postings here on the board or using the search function would have gotten you many of the answers you seek.

First:
The twelve magnet/nine coil combination is three phase.  One coil per magnet will give you a single phase alternator which will cog badly and require a very high starting torque as compared to the 3-phase.  More coils matched with additional magnets will give you more output power to a certain extent.  It also gives more resistance in the coil circuit which results in more power being lost internally as heat in the alternator.  

Second:
Three phase is recitified with either two full wave bridges (use one as a full wave and one as a half wave) or with a three phase rectifier.  Diagrams for both have been posted on here many times.  Search for 3-phase rectifier.

Third:
Make sure that you have enough water power available.  I see no reason you couldn't have a 24/18 arrangement.  I believe that if you put the magnets a greater distance away from the center, the velocity will increase but the torque available will decrease.  You might end up slowing or even stopping the waterwheel.  There will be a certain amount of power available given the size of the wheel and the flow of the water.  I have seen formulae on here to calculate available power.  Hopefully you will be able to find them or someone will reply with some help in this area.  There are many knowledgeable people on here and many are well versed in the subject of water generating.

Steve



Re: Coil and Bride Recitifier Questions (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by coldspot on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 08:58:55 PM MST

Question 2-
This one I know
Use a bridge for each wire
just run them to bolth terminals on each one
then wire the out's of DC together
Pos to Pos
Neg to Neg
(to add it together and UP)
And take power from there




Re: Coil and Bride Recitifier Questions (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by kurt on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 09:21:51 AM MST

http://otherpower.com/rectifier.html


IRC inst.
just a personal rant carry on.


Re: Coil and Bride Recitifier Questions (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by finnsawyer on Sun Jun 04, 2006 at 09:00:33 AM MST

The 9 coils/ 12 magnets arrangement comes about from the three phase requirement.  Only one of the phases can be directly centered over magnets at a given time.  

"Could the magnets be spread further apart to allow for more coils? I presume you can get more power with more coils."  The answer I believe is yes, but it requires a different design.  Check out my diary on my pulsed alternator design.  With this design you could build an alternator using 12 magnets and 18 coils.  If the magnets were one inch in diameter and the coils two inches, it would require about a twelve inch diameter rotor.  At the present the design is untested, however.    
GeoM



Re: Coil and Bride Recitifier Questions (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by HydroCamper on Sun Jun 04, 2006 at 11:14:36 PM MST

Thank you for this good information. I reccomend to anyone looking for some interesting technical information on wire / magnet design to checkout finsawyer diary. Seval people have stated clogging is a main reason for using the three phase design. A water wheel design however has MUCH higher starting torque than a wind turbine. So I don't think a 3 phase design is really that critical. But if that is true, then what is the best design where high starting torque is available? Would it be to hook all the coils (12 magnets / 12 coils) in series and adjust the wire size and windings to get the correct voltage?

Another question. Should the magnets always alternate between north side up and south side up as you go around the circle?

[ Parent ]



Re: Coil and Bride Recitifier Questions (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Flux on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 12:46:15 PM MST

This misunderstanding about cogging is very confusing. It comes about by people talking about different things.

cogging normally refers to magnetic attraction to an iron circuit that is not uniform, normally with slots. It means that the rotor will stop in definite places and force is needed to move it off these positions. The torque required will in some cases delay start up.

The torque needed to produce electrical power is a different matter, if the output is smooth as is the case with 3 phase then the torque needed is smooth. With single phase the torque pulsates and the effect is similar to cogging but caused by a totally different process. This pulsating torque is absent below cut in speed and has absolutely no effect on start up.

It does cause vibration when running and single phase machines are generally less efficient and bigger for the same output. For a machine that has a rectified output for battery charging, single phase is best avoided, but it will work if you can live with the vibration and lower efficiency.

Any air gap alternator will start up with ease, it doesn't exhibit cogging as there is no iron to cause the effect.
Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Coil and Bride Recitifier Questions (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by finnsawyer on Tue Jun 06, 2006 at 07:57:38 AM MST

While you could probably build an alternator with all the magnets having the same pole facing the coils, you would find that the flux change as the coils move from one magnet to the next magnet is less than with them alternating.  The problem is that the flux would just vary between zero (hopefully) and a maximum value, whereas in the case of the alternating magnets it varies between a positive value and a negative value, giving a greater flux change and voltage.  It is probably also easier to control the flux path with the magnets alternating.

As far as cogging is concerned, all physical systems tend toward a state of lowest energy.  If you let a piece of iron go near a magnet it will briefly gain some speed or mechanical energy and then stop abruptly as it hits the magnet.  The mechanical energy that it gained is converted to heat at the time of the impact.  So the iron against the magnet as a system has lower energy than the iron in your pocket across the room.  In order to separate the iron and magnet you must restore the energy lost when the two impacted, which requires a directed force (a force acting through a distance does work).  In the case of coils with iron cores over magnets the field energy is least when the coils are directly over the magnets.  Moving the coils off of the magnets increases the field energy and hence requires a directed force.  That force we recognize as cogging.  In the case of a three phase (or my design also) only one third of the coils can be directly over a magnet at any time.  This reduces cogging.
GeoM
[ Parent ]



Re: Coil and Bride Recitifier Questions (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by jaysicle on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 04:30:55 PM MST

Hello,
  1. The rule of thumb for a (3) phase machine is (3) coils for every (4) magnetic poles. Whether you have (12) magnets single rotor, or (24) magnets dual rotor the number of magnetic poles is still (12). This is because the rotors face each other with every magnet attracting to the one facing it. This gets tricky with the amount of force involved, and jack screws and such must be used. Potential for danger is greater with two rotors. However, if you can figure out how to get them to sandwich your stator evenly - you should see 4X the power for 2X the material. This is because when you double the magnetic field force in the gap (and through the stator), both the voltage and the current generally double in the coils. The magnets are aligned centres at 30° around some circular path, and the coils are aligned centres at 40° around an equal radius circular path as the magnets. The magnet centre to centre spacing, around the rotors should be equal to the coil leg width on your stator. The coil leg width is the distance between the middle of a leg on the left side of a coil to the middle of the leg on the right side of a coil. Your coils will be generally roundish and are dependant on the diameter of the rotor, wire guage, and the voltage you are after (more windings = higher voltage). The coils are grouped 123-123-123 as you go around your rotor, and coils 1-1-1, 2-2-2, 3-3-3 are wired up in series. All 9 coils must be wound in the same direction, and the three starts must be tagged together as neutral. The resultant output wires are 3 phase AC current flow, each phase 120 electrical degrees from the one beside it. The start of each phase (first of each of the three coils) are wired together, and called "Neutral". This is the fourth lead you were wondering about. You have 3 phases, and a common neutral. If everything is lined up, you'll be pushing and pulling electrons!
  2. It is these (4) conductors that get wired to your bridge rectifier. ~AC, and diagonal from that is (AC) neutral usually not marked. You will also see + this is +DC out. Diagonally opposite is -DC out. Three bridge rectifiers handle the three incoming AC phases, and the DC outputs are wired together in parallel. From there, you can go to a voltmeter if you like, or put an ammeter in line on the +DC total out to read current flow. Or both, that is always fun.      
  3. Shorter path equals quicker rotation...If torque is not an issue since you have plenty of force with the water, you can keep the generator size down with generator closer to the wheel centre, but still careful to meet the voltage you need. The water wheel can be whatever it is, but a smaller diameter rotor will give an increased RPM at certain water flow rate and therefore, increased Voltage. That is to say, unless you want to start charging your neighbours for it, and build 24" rotors with massive coils and magnets, and to heck with RPM's. Cost prohibitive to most of course. That is why selling it helps!. I guess at some point (coils and mags too far out from centre), even the water will just go around and through your machine instead of turning it.
I hope this is useful to you, and I hope I have been able to finally give something back to this board. :)

-Jayson-



Coil and Bride Recitifier Questions | 8 comments (8 topical)
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