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G. W. and Nuclear Power


By finnsawyer, Section Diaries
Posted on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 04:25:19 PM MST
I wanted to make a comment concerning Nuclear Power so with deference to TomW  I decided to put it in a diary.

I may be walking a fine line here concerning getting kicked off of the board.  Anyway folks, consider this diary wide open for any comments concerning energy that don't fit the rigid RE framework.

G. W. wants to help India improve its nuclear power generation to save on oil use.  Does this make sense?  Just consider the state of affairs between India and Pakistan.  If he wants to cut oil use by building nuclear plants I'd say build them here.  Put My favorite people, Americans, to work.  Then electrify and modernize the railroads and stop using long haul trucks.  Just use trucks for local deliveries.  This is doable using current technology.

Hydrogen as a carrier of energy.  Sure.  In fact, as I've pointed out recently there is at least one set of plant genes that can convert sunshine to hydrogen.  A little genetic engineering?  But what happens if the bugs get into the environment?  Is all the water then converted to hydrogen and oxygen with the hydrogen escaping into space or does the hydrogen recombine with oxygen in the upper atmosphere?

Hydrogen fusion?  Not proven, may not be possible, don't wait for it.

Space based energy generation.  Currently figured to be 7 percent efficient.  Low, but the available energy is essentially infinite.  Currently doable.  The problem is that space based sysytems degrade fairly rapidly.  And currently we have no way to service them.

Nicola Tesla was interested in broadcast power.  Maybe that's the answer coupled with space based energy generation.  Maybe those pesky overunity devices really are receiving power broadcast at certain frequencies.  So, maybe the answer is staring us in the face if we just look.  Finnsawyer out.

G. W. and Nuclear Power | 22 comments (22 topical)

Re: G. W. and Nuclear Power (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by TomW on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 10:36:14 AM MST

fin;

No need to defer to me. I am just a lowly user with many opinions I cannot seem to keep to myself. The reality is we are not too far apart on things just a few minor points.

Still calling them as I see them, only now its just expressed as opinion not editorial action.

Cheers.

TomW

The Truth is the Truth, even if no one believes it; and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it




Re: G. W. and Nuclear Power (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by finnsawyer on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 10:52:47 AM MST

My apologies for singling you out, but the advice of putting these things in a diary is a good one.  I posted this thing because while these issues don't fit neatly into RE, they are issues that are important to an informed public.  I gave a condensed version of my opinions.  Nuclear power doesn't scare me per se.  What gives me pause for concern is storing nuclear waste along the shores of the Great Lakes.  It's high time they hauled that stuff to Yucca Mountain.  Maybe they should glassify the waste and dump it into the deepest subduction zone they can find.  By the time that stuff again sees the light of day hundreds of thousands of years will have passed.  Oh well, I'm rambling.
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: G. W. and Nuclear Power (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by wdyasq on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 11:48:48 AM MST

"It's high time they hauled that stuff to Yucca Mountain."

I think all proponents and willing users of nuclear energy should be given a barrel of waste of their very own to store....

Ron
Adventure is just bad planning." -- Roald Amundsen
[ Parent ]



Re: G. W. and Nuclear Power (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by finnsawyer on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 09:24:32 AM MST

Well, if they don't want to haul it from the Fermi plant in lower Michigan to Yucca Mountain they could just store it in the old salt mines under Detroit.  That kind of fits your idea.  Store it where you use it!
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: G. W. and Nuclear Power (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 06:42:44 PM MST

Do NOT THINK of storing nuclear waste in:
 - Salt mines in general.
 - Those under Detroit in particular.

The heat of nuclear waste causes moisture to migrate through the salt toward the heat (due to salt going into solution on the hotter side of the drop and crystalizing out on the cooler side), leading to an eventual geyser of boiling radioactive brine.

The salt mines under Detroit are part of a network of salt that underlies most of lower Michigan, and soluble waste dumped in one part of it shows up all over it (as was proven when Dow Chemical in Midland dumped some cruft down there and it ended up in Detroit).

A couple cracks through into the Detroit river would wash out anything down there rather quickly.  (With only salt there it would mostly just sink Detroit, but with radioactive waste it would wash it out into the St Lawrence Seaway and thence into the Atlantic and the air around Niagra Falls.)

[ Parent ]



Re: G. W. and Nuclear Power (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by asheets on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:17:11 AM MST

I'd take it.  I could probably generate of few watts of electricity without killing everybody in the neighborhood.
_____________________________

Alan Sheets
[ Parent ]



Re: G. W. and Nuclear Power (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Don Cackleberrycreations on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 10:40:37 AM MST

   I'll be nice and avoid commenting On GW other than to say the best part of him was left on the sheets.

   As for transmitted power we all use it daily in one form or another.
We use sunlight for heat and or eletric and to create wind. This is all transmitted power.
poor unedekated redneck with attitude



Re: G. W. and Nuclear Power (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by JW on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 12:38:38 PM MST

Hi All,

 Personally I feel the editors are doing a fine job. As for users, this is truely a special group of folks.

 I realy yousd to aim my target at nuke power. Then I had a chance to interact with some folk's who dedicate there careers to this sort of thing. Medical nuke people also fall into this catagory. But hey, the paradigm is what it is. Some of these people aspire to be a nuke man someday. to each his/or/her there own, trust me the money is good for them..

 One thing that troubles me is how atomic weight is the holy frickn grail with these people. Im like, hey, have you ever heard of specific gravity? it's how the kings of old, figured out they were getting screwed on gold that was alloyd with copper, silver or some such. Yes the alchemists figured this out. Now thru cold fusion gold can be transmuted from lead, imagion that. To make a long story short, gold is twice as heavy as lead- according to specific gravity. But the Nuke-Man I interacted with wouldnt even check into it, needless to say it really pissed me off. Seems the periodic table specifys lead as heavier than gold by a small fraction, according to atomic weight. According to specific gravity- a cubic centimeter of gold is 19 grams, lead is 11.3 grams per cubic centimeter. I guess its a one way street with some people, anyhow were all people.

Which inevitably leads to the hydrogen economy. I thought about this some last night. Im assoiated with a group of engineer's that are really pushing for fuel cells. I have asked my self is global warming really caused by man made activitys. Would fuel cells actually help?. The short answer is gosh, we do have to do something. yes carbon neutral has its niche. But what about the benifits of no co2 emmisions. To say the least its a cunumdrum(sp?). But in my heart, I really feel its a bad thing to mess around with bioshere earths precious water supply. So if alternatives to electrolisis, for getting hydrogen for fuelcell's become the primary source, I could see myself supporting a so-called hydrogen economy.

 There is a big multi nation effort in progress to develop a better- than- break- even fusion type of reaction. This must be supported as well, in my opinion. I believe its in France where they re-use spent nuke waste thru breeder type of reactors. The nuke guy I used to know, told me its just to dangerious for us to do that in the US.

 This whole dialog is tuff...

But we can eploit the RE/AE niche that exists here.

Best to all

JW

[ Parent ]



windmills and flow batteries (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by willib on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 01:14:19 PM MST

windmills and flow batteries are the answer to our daily transportaion needs.
one at each end of our commute.
the windmill charges the flow batteries , till we need the power.
fill your tanks with "flow juice"
and your on your way home.

specifics available upon request


Carpe Ventum (seize the wind)



Re: windmills and flow batteries (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by TomW on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 02:16:39 PM MST

willi;


specifics available upon request

Uh, yes, any links to functional units sized to power vehicles? How much liquid needs to be transfered to replace say 10 gallons of gasoline?

Better yet, send me the one you tested so I can play with it, too.

I will say it appears to be an interesting approach and probably works. I just cannot recall seeing or hearing of a functioning unit used anywhere. [does not mean it does not exist] Sure might be the answer to long cable runs for the DIY crowd if we could just run a loop of 2" plastic pipe from the source charging station to the point of use storage area. Depending on fluid transfer needs we could possibly transfers hundreds of KWH of energy daily for cheap. I do recall the laboratory units did not "wear out".

Typical of new technology it will probably become affordable in some future that doesn't include me.

But, seriously, certainly provide more info on how we could get and use or build and use such devices doing what we do here.

Cheers.,

TomW

The Truth is the Truth, even if no one believes it; and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it


[ Parent ]



Re: windmills and flow batteries (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by Chagrin on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 12:08:30 PM MST

Vanadium Redox flow batteries seem to have some momentum, TomW. The technology still seems pretty new though -- I think the biggest problem is still the corrosiveness of the vanadium liquid.

http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=1675


[ Parent ]



Re: windmills and flow batteries (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by richhagen on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 12:48:26 AM MST

Isn't the Vanadium solution toxic?  Could make handling and cleaning up after all those traffic crashes a bit more interesting if it were incorporated into a few hundred million cars.  I would love to see a practical storage medium for electrical energy for a car.  Ecass and some other ultracap ideas hold promise, but would require about a 10 fold increase in the energy density of the ultra capacitors with no increase in cost to be practical.  Lithium Ion batteries?  If the life expectancy was longer and a couple of the safety issues were better resolved, maybe.  I suspect we may one day have practical electric motive drive systems for vehicles, it's just that we may run out of fossil fuels first.  Rich
'A Joule saved is a Joule made'
[ Parent ]


Re: windmills and flow batteries (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by ghurd on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 01:21:07 AM MST

My personal favorite!
"may run out of fossil fuels first"
So what?
In a "future car", powered with solar, wind, nuke, whatever...
What will be in the bearings and crank case?
What are the tires, gaskets, seats, dash, bumpers, carpet, paint... coffee cup and cup holder... made from?

Strange but true.  An episode of "X-Files" got me thinking that way.  The one with the water powered car inventor, and why he did not release it to the whole world.
Though I do prefer the 'monster' episodes to the the 'conspiracy' episodes.
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]



Re: windmills and flow batteries (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by richhagen on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 12:59:56 PM MST

It is not likely that we will run 'out' of fossil fuels anytime soon.  We have however used, by most accounts, a majority of the easiest to obtain oil.  As a result of supply and demand, it would not appear unlikely to me, that prices would slowly spiral upward.  The use of oil in plastics and such is probably easier to maintain at the elevated price.  Some items would be made from other materials, and some would just cost more.  If the costs tripled, you would still have plastics for many uses.  As far as powering your car, that would get a bit more ugly since it would be well within the range of competing technologies regarding cost.  Rich
'A Joule saved is a Joule made'
[ Parent ]


Re: windmills and flow batteries (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by willib on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 03:20:24 PM MST

"Better yet, send me the one you tested so I can play with it, too."

oh man i wish i had one to play with ,
from what i have read it the fuel cell uses two solutions , for lack of an easier discription , a plus solution and a minus solution , but they are the same solution , just that their ions are charged positively and negetivly .
and when pumped through the fuel cell the charge is stripped from both ( or transferred or whatever), not being up on my electrochemistry i forget exactly what happens.

anyway a nice  part of the flow battery is that since the two solutions are essentially the same , they can mix , a little , without degrading the whole system , unlike other fuel cells , of similar type.


Carpe Ventum (seize the wind)
[ Parent ]



Re: G. W. and Nuclear Power (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by gizmo on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 03:10:19 AM MST

The nuclear debate is starting up in Australia, our government is 'interrested', but I think the general public is against the idea.
My personal view is its not a path we should go down. Someone said a lump of processed uranium has the power of a moutain of coal, not really correct, but still, I would rather sit on a mountain of coal than hold a lump of plutonium in my hands. Coal wont make the walls of the cells in my body disintegrate, my organs bleed, my skin fall off my body, all within a few days. Plutonium is poisonous to all life, today, tomorrow and in a thousand years.

My problem is there is no safe way to get rid of the waste, instead we just bottle it up and pass it on to our children. Here kids, your parents made a bit of a mess, can you clean it up for us?

Yeah other forms of energy are not real good for the environment, coal pumps out huge amounts of CO2, but if we stop using coal today the trees can clear the air after several decades.

If you think nuclear is safe, have a look at this site - http://archive.greenpeace.org/comms/nukes/chernob/rep02.html
And dont forget Chernobyl, the nearby city of 100,000 people had to be evacuated. Its now a ghost town, and will be for hundreds of years. Imagine if the reactor just east of Orlando Florida suffered the same fault, and the residents of Orlando were told they had to leave their city, and never come back.

Its just too great a risk.

Glenn
http://www.thebackshed.com



Re: G. W. and Nuclear Power (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by Chagrin on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 12:41:38 PM MST

"Population exposure from operation of 1000-MWe nuclear and coal-fired power plants amounts to 490 person-rem/year for coal plants and 4.8 person-rem/year for nuclear plants. Thus, the population effective dose equivalent from coal plants is 100 times that from nuclear plants. For the complete nuclear fuel cycle, from mining to reactor operation to waste disposal, the radiation dose is cited as 136 person-rem/year; the equivalent dose for coal use, from mining to power plant operation to waste disposal, is not listed in this report and is probably unknown."

You want a risk -- that's a risk.

[ Parent ]



Re: G. W. and Nuclear Power (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Stonebrain on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 04:04:44 AM MST

Hi,finsawer

Don't worry,you don't look like a spammer.
Let's talk about nuke.

In my opinion civil nuke is just a byproduct of military nuke.
Without massive military investments civil nuke wouldn't have
existed.

The most interesting thing about nuke power is not the grid power
but the power to kill people like mosquitos.

What is the economic reality of keeping an eye on nukewaste for
hundreds of thousends years.

What about all those nuclear submarines rotting away in russia because
suddenly there is no more money to take these horrors to pieces.
And chernobyl??
Yes,that was those stupid communists.Nowadays people have becomme wise :(

I can tell you that our economy will not be stable for hundreds
of thousends of years.It's just stupid to think that it will.

No enterprise will invest in nuke if they have full responsability
of nukewaste because it's economic nonsense.

By the way I like americans too(proof: I love this board).but I like french
too.I just try not to practise favoritisme and appreciate people for their
qualities.

cheers,
stonebrain




Re: G. W. and Nuclear Power (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by finnsawyer on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 09:40:27 AM MST

The ultimate solution to the nuclear waste problem would be to shoot it into the sun.  Once gone, no potential issues.  I suspect it would be too expensive for a long time.  Still, if such a disposal was mandated...?

The half life of plutonium is 250 thousand years.  That boggles the mind.  Human history only goes back about 5,000 years.  A human life span is around 100 years at best.  It's interesting that some scientists are worried about the nuclear fire at the center of the Earth going out.  (It's interesting that when they discover a process they begin to worry about it - good way to get funding?). So, find a way to send that nuclear waste to the Earth's center to keep those fires going.

I should point out that the concern is that the Earth's core would solidify with the result that it would lose its magnetic field.  This would result over time with the Earth's atmosphere being stripped due to the solar wind.  Currently, there is evidence that the field is collapsing.  It has reversed many times in the past.
GeoM
[ Parent ]



Re: G. W. and Nuclear Power (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by asheets on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:15:49 AM MST

Oh, I don't know.  I'm in favor of using nuclear fission power plants in the following conditions:
  1. Use smaller, gravity-fed and non-pressurized water cooling systems.  The french do this rather well, but most of the rest of nuclear users do not.  It seems to me that most of the operational problems we see with nuke plants are in the pressurized cooling systems.
  2. Use standardized models of reactors.  Again, this is something that the French do well.  The Soviets also did this, but since they were dual-use reactors, saftey was a lesser issue.  In the US, all of the power generators are one-of-a-kind, essentially experimental models.
  3. Design reactors that can use heat generated from older fuel, less-enriched fuel, or waste.  At the retired nuke plant in my area, the temporary expired fuel holding pond is reported to average about 190 degrees F.  That's 100 deg. F that ought to be recoverable somehow.
  4. Do more research into radio-isotope electric generators that can use low-level waste.  Must it always be highly enriched plutonium for these types of units?  Can we generate a few watts at a time from all of our wast  Those few watts will add up over time.  Better than wasting the decay energies on the walls of a salt mine.
  5. Do more fundamental research into radiochemistry and radiophysics.  Is a half-life truly unalterable without an explosive yield?
  6. Move and group reactors into remote locations and use an efficient transmission grid to bring the power to where it is needed.  Sure, there would be transmission loss involved -- but so what if (a) we could generate extra and (b) isolate/secure a physical area by simple distance.
We know that hydrogen fusion works, but currently is an energy sink (takes more energy to contain it than is liberated).  But, we also know that fused elements are metastable  (in that there are at least 115 elements beyond hydrogen) AND that energy can be liberated (and controlled) from many of them.  I personally don't think that mangetic control is the key, so some breakthroughs in the reseach of gravity and quantum physics are going to be the key to controlled fusion.

We already have hydrogen energy carriers as well -- they are called "hydrocarbons" and are the basis of both life on this planet and the Industrial Revolution.  There's nothing really new here, and we probably can't get much more efficient than this either without some heavy-duty biological engineering (combining sunlight, carbon, and water in a plant directly into tree-bark made of coal or into a sap that happens to be gasoline).  And even then, since we have been "blessed" with an atmosphere of 78% nitrogen, we still have to worry about poisoning ourselves in any chemical energy liberation action.

Space-based capture of solar energy will probably be the way to go.  Even at 7%, humanity will never capture even 1% of all the energy out there without a Dyson Sphere.  That <1% has already powered everything man can come up with; capturing another <1% mechanically will power everything man will EVER come up with.  Economically (if one gets past the ridiculously high start-up cost) even a series of 1-use power satellites with a life span of 5 years would be profitable over the long run.  If testing the technology in space wasn't such a pain in the butt (all of this energy transfer via microwave technology has been repeatedly ground tested), we'd be good to go.  With the release of former Soviet ICBMs for commercial research, expect to see a few small-scale tests of this technology in the near future.
_____________________________

Alan Sheets



Re: G. W. and Nuclear Power (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 07:03:11 PM MST

Space based energy generation.  Currently figured to be 7 percent efficient.

Where's that 7% number from?

Last I heard (back in the '70s or so) the estimate for getting the power to the ground was better than 85% (DC in at orbit to DC out at ground) and the generator could be a water-based steam engine with efficiencies comparable to a land-based fossil fuel plant.  That multiplies out to quite a bit more than 7%.  (I need to dig out my old L5 society stuff...)

Low, but the available energy is essentially infinite.

(Which DOES make efficiency a minor consideration, doesn't it?  B-)

The problem is that space based sysytems degrade fairly rapidly.  And currently we have no way to service them.

"Fairly rapidly" is a relative term.  For a steam engine with focusing mirror collectors and decently thick plumbing the degredation rate would be a lot lower than for hi-tek semiconductor devices or even photovoltaic panels.

As for service, even a shuttle could get workers up there and back (though a project to actually build one would no doubt spur design of a less expensive per-trip successor).  A power plant costs a LOT to build and operate.  One with no fuel cost can support a LOT of construction and operation expense and still come out ahead of nuke and fossil fuel plants.



Re: G. W. and Nuclear Power (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by finnsawyer on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 08:35:36 AM MST

The 7% I believe was Nasa's conclusion.  One of their guys was looking into it.  I can't remember his name.  You have to keep in mind that you generate the power, convert it to microwaves or some such thing, beam it to Earth, and convert it to usable 60 cycle.  Every step has its inefficiencies.  That's why I mentioned broadcast power.  Maybe by exciting the ionosphere we can eliminate some of these steps.
GeoM
[ Parent ]


G. W. and Nuclear Power | 22 comments (22 topical)
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