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need help with controller


By fanman, Section Controls
Posted on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 11:40:02 AM MST
i want to build a controller to eliminate the batteries

hey fellas,
im looking to build a controller that i can use to heat hot water without the batteries, im sure there is something allready on this site on how to do that, but i couldnt find it, i have a axial flux machine, 120 volt output, with a 5kw max watts, i would like to heat water, can someone give me a little insight into this?
need help with controller | 16 comments (16 topical)

Re: need help with controller (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by JW on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 05:49:57 AM MST

Fanman,

 Some in the past, who have contemplated heating water in this way, have adapted to IR space heating for heating air, instead of heating water. Mainly because of the difficulty of intrigrating a GFCI.

JW



Re: need help with controller (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by random on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 06:53:17 AM MST

"im looking to build a controller that i can use to heat hot water without the batteries"

I'm a little confused by what you're trying to do.  I'm not sure what a controller has to do with heating water, unless you're talking about building a thermostat.  You said "without the batteries" so I guess you're looking to heat water efficiently using 120v current?

It depends on how much water you're talking about and how much you want to heat it.  A fixed-output heater will make water a lot hotter when the ambient temperature is 80F than it will when the ambient temperature is -15F.

I was hunting around a couple months ago for a temperature controller that I could use to heat some plastic up to just below its melting point, a target temperature of around 350F.  I didn't have the money to buy all the components needed but did learn some stuff.

fwiw, if I was going to heat water efficiently, I'd build my own inline water heater based on heating elements taken from hot-glue guns.  There are some hot-glue guns you can buy at walmart for about $10 each, one of these contains a single heating element that is physically cylindrical with an outside diameter of 5/16" and a length of about 1-3/4".  I'd use some brass fittings so the water could flow past a tube that contained one of these elements (with the element isolated from the water).  The ones I've played with were 40watts and heated to a temperature of around 365F.  That means you don't want to try using solder unless you want to risk the possibility of it disassembling itself on the job.

I doubt if this is real helpful.  There are places on the web where you can buy thermocouple type temperature sensors, but actual temperature controllers usable for my application seem to cost in the neighborhood of $1000 -- maximum overkill.  I'm sure somebody who knew what he was doing electrically could set up a simple controller circut based on sensor input, but that isn't me.
contact random



Re: need help with controller (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by BigBreaker on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 07:57:04 AM MST

You can rig a very simple temperature sensor from a thermistor (a temperature sensitive resistor), a pot and an op amp (or comparitor).  There are many topologies that can work but the key is the cheap thermistor.

[ Parent ]


Re: need help with controller (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by kurt on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 07:12:41 AM MST

look here http://www.scoraigwind.com/index.htm


IRC inst.
just a personal rant carry on.


Re: need help with controller (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by coldspot on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 07:35:55 AM MST

"water heater based on heating elements taken from hot-glue guns"

Now thats an idea I can and will use!
Can get these at Dollar store,
Can put these around a copper pipe,
Can, maybe get the water over the boiling point,
To distilll water and make pottable from raw creek water.
It was easy to get up to pasturization, (118`) using solar heating
but getting the bump over to distilling was yet to be figured
out.
Now I have a new plan!!!!!
:)
Thanks




Re: need help with controller (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by ghurd on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 07:52:49 AM MST

Be careful with cheap glue guns.
I had one shoot a plasma arc 2 feet out the back for half a second.
Thank God it was perpendicular to my face at the time.
Rated at 5W and blew a 20A breaker.
Wish I still had a photo of it, maybe somewhere...

Only brand name glue guns for me from now on.
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]



Re: need help with controller (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by dinges on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 05:29:36 PM MST

Ghurd, could it be because you abuse those things? They're not meant for 24/7 duty, you know :). The amount of hotglue I see in your projects, I'd think you have shares in them and try to get us 'hooked' to hotglue as well. A bit of advertising, so to speak. Wait... Could that be the reason for you recommending brand name glue guns as well?

Hmm....

[ Parent ]



Re: need help with controller (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by coldspot on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 07:37:09 AM MST

"http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/3/3/134536/6348"
O-yea,
this story might help
:)



Re: need help with controller (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by Flux on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 09:29:15 AM MST

You say your machine is 120v and 5kw output. Neither of these figures are likely to be more than approximations so you will need to alter things about somewhat.

Taking your figures you need heaters that will load 5kW at 120v and that will be your full load.

As soon as the wind drops the load will be too high and you will stall the prop.

 In low winds you must have no load so it will start up. When you reach a useful wind speed ( perhaps 10mph ) you need a load that will match the machine output at that speed. As the wind picks up you need to keep increasing load so the prop doesn't run away and you do this up to the maximum power.

If you are clever with electronics you have many choices but if you are not, the way you are most likely to be able to manage is the way that someone has pointed you to in the link to Hugh Piggot's site at Scoraigwind.

This adds the load in discrete steps and has some dead band so that the loads don't keep cycling. It is still likely to beyond the capability of relays long term so you need to think about electronic relays ( triac based).

The final step requires that you don't exceed the heater voltage so if your 120v is nominal you may have to use higher voltage heaters.

The more steps the better you match the load but 3 steps should give you a working system.

You should keep the load balanced round the 3 phases, particularly at the higher wind end.

It is simpler to rectify to dc but you need mosfet or igbt pwm controllers.

In theory you could use a 3 phase controlled rectifier ( diode /scr) but you will find no commercial firing circuits for variable frequency.

The same is true of ac phase control using triacs.

Hope that gives you an idea of what is needed, how you do it depends on your skill.
Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: need help with controller (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Nando on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 09:57:07 AM MST

FANMAN:

Where are you located ? .

The controller you envision, which is a ballast PWM controller to load the wind mill with just the necessary load to harvest the energy available at any moment require that you supply the power curve and voltage curve of the wind mill to see what would be the best PWM profile the wind mill needs to supply is latent available power to the heater ballasts.

The other answers, you have gotten, give you a different direction, based on ambient temperature which for sure will not load the wind mill properly.

If you have up to 5 KW, it may be best to have 3 loads, one that is PWM and 2 that sequentially inserted/removed and needed to maintain proper wind mill loading.

Your heating should be done into a "reservoir tank" and from there a secondary loop to heat what you need to keep at certain temperature, like the house ambient temperature.

Adding, as well, the MPPT capability to harvest the maximum available power and, as well, to protect the wind mill for over speeding at high wind regimes.

What are your electronic capabilities, specially, to assemble a circuit with several Integrated Circuits and trouble shoot it if necessary ?.

Connect with me directly

Nando



Re: need help with controller (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by jmk on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 01:56:33 PM MST

 Fanman, How's that sixteen foot mill doing anyway? Did you put it up on your 150' tower?
jmk
[ Parent ]


Re: need help with controller (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by fanman on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 03:51:06 PM MST

hello jmk
my 16 foot mill is doing great, it is still down near the ground but ive seen a fairly steady 30 amps on it at 140 volts (batteries were full), so thats 4200 watts ,thats pretty good i think, ive checked it after it ran hard like that, and no presence of heat whatsoever, the mill is really a sucess, im still in the middle of moving to big rapids mich, i have to update things there, i really want to try to eliminate my batteries and heat straight water, hence my topic today, how are you doing? if i remember right your in mich too? i shall go now its supper time, talk to you soon                 fanman

fanman dave
[ Parent ]


Re: need help with controller (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by fanman on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 06:21:57 PM MST

nando,
fanman here, i am located in michigan, u.s.a  what i need is a controller that will extract maximum power from my turbine, i have a pretty good understanding of electronics, and how to put them together, but also im no expert in that field, but like i always say, if theres a will a way, right? and yes im gonna use a electric water tank for my resovuir, and it will be backed up with a on demand type heater, could you define what a pwm is and the mppt is? is this something i can get at the electronics superstore or not?  also has on of these circuit been made on the board? if so i would be interested in the schematics for it,  thanks nando  
fanman
fanman dave
[ Parent ]


Re: need help with controller (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by Nando on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 10:29:13 PM MST

You need to run the generator up to the peak RPM and read the OPEN load voltage, then with about 10 % load to determine the rotor/stator gap voltage, and as well the phase winding resistance to be able to define what you need as a heater controller and the resistive loads,

I see that you are moving to Michigan and there gets colder.

Also, in detail the water heater tank, you have in mind.

Nando

[ Parent ]



Re: need help with controller (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by vawtman on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 02:56:08 PM MST

Hello Fanman
 This is what im planning
 Buy a 240v waterheater say 50 gal and plumb has a preheater.
 Use the high limit to shut down the mill.
 Rectify the 3ph and feed the elements dc{thanks Zubbly}
 In lower winds the elements just wouldnt get very hot.
 Still trying to figure out a rotor speed sensor and maybe a n.o relay.Maybe use grid power for this part.
  Carry on.



Re: need help with controller (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by QUAZ HOLT on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 11:33:19 PM MST

Fanman, what I would do is make a diversion switch. When your batteries are charged then switch directly to the hot water tank. Any excess power from the mill will go into the heater element and into the water. Bill
"Careful with that knife"


need help with controller | 16 comments (16 topical)
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