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Repeated threads
By RogerAS, Section Diaries Posted on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 10:42:29 PM MST
all

Hi,
I have a unique prospective few others share regarding this issue.
I found this forum several years ago, back on the "old" board days. I lost net access for about 2 years and came back. All the changes I've seen are not for the better.
My first observation:
There seems to have evolved some sort of elite posters that can say whatever they please and nothing is done about it. Some of the responses to newbie postings don't just approach condesending, but goes all the way past pomp. These elite folks seem to know more about the technology (and everything else) involved in our DIY craft than human nature. Some people don't care if it costs them $10 to make what they can buy from the grid for $1. Since when is that any of your concern? If I had millions of $'s I'd ask what the best gen set I could use to screw over Entergy of Arkansas. I'd give away megawatts if I could. Rather than dismiss such posting out of hand, offer some constructive advice, or keep your trap shut! It seems 90% of these elite want to be the board editors and act as if they were. It seems they must hold some hidden place of honor for acting so without repremand. You know what I mean and who I'm referencing!
My second observation:
Oh sure, there's going to be posters that don't do their "homework", or so it would seem. The trouble is there are so many topics that it becomes confusing. Besides, some people simply do not have the time. They may actually have a life. If you feel it's a waste of your time don't respond. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. Get over yourself. You might have the facts but that doesn't make you right. If you want to talk about lazy let's get into posters that use "somebody at somewhere dot com" email addresses to defeat spam. For Gods sake is it that hard to either set up filters or use your delete function?
My third observation:
There is a noticable absence of posters I remember from "back in the day". I've been back for about a month now and I rarely see names associated with that time frame. Some of you long term users still around will notice this as well. Could it be they grew tired of things here other than newbie questions? Could it be that there is a tone of unfriendliness that seems to have reached the saturation point?
My fourth and final observation(s):
There are too many chiefs at the editorial helm to guide this effort effectively. Do you really need a "staff" of editors? Goodness, there must be several hundred unworthy postings from which we are saved every day! Thank goodness we have such wise and tanlented people to save us from this durge. Oh come on. The "mother hen" protectiveness of this "valuable" resource is becoming bothersome, and wearing quite thin.
I can see why this is so with several people trying to run the show. Is there one person in charge or is it a communal effort? Like it or not all ships need only one captain, and with several people shouting orders let's hope there's no real storm. The posting a few weeks ago of all the editorial dogs was amusing, but why not be a little more up front about this? Is there some reason to be so secretive? I distrust secretiveness and I feel others may as well.
Finally I have a problem with anyone, especially those in positions of authority, hiding behind a title. If you have the power to make editorial decisions and you add a comment to another persons posting, use your real name. It is the honorable and forthright thing to do. Of course this allows for a blanket editorial staff to make us all think they've really got it going on, when in fact things seem to be spiralling fearfully close to the drain.
If this is the last posting I make here I say fairwell. At least I put it in the diary section where supposedly "anything goes", and I wrote nothing that I feel was not true or self evident.
Roger A. Stephenson

Repeated threads | 43 comments (43 topical)

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Bruce S on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 05:42:02 PM MST

Hello Roger;
I would first like to say, that your post was a refreshing change to the almost all out flame going on in the rant section.
ALL points well written.
I too have been around for several years, mostly until I had something constructive to add, stayed out in the non-joined or lurking group as some would say.

If I may, I would like to add my comments and promise not to shout or go the route I headed into over in the rant section.:--)

OB1:-) There are some here who have at times gotten tired of seeing questions put to the board that to me reaks of not someone doing their homework shall we say.
And to me if they are asking questions, I don't believe it's too much for the board owners or those willing to help out, for the people asking those questions to do a quick search. I don't always have a lot of time. Knowing that, I don't want anyone else to take up their family lives to answer something I could've gotten by doing a simple search.
I do totaly agree that the tone of the board has gone sour, which was one very reason I sign off for days at a time without even thinking twice about it; just don't want to waste my with-the-family the time to wade through nags.

Posters who don't use their real name: So what? the US and most of the world is still free to call yourself whatever you want to. Another perk of the i-net is just that.

I use mine 'cause it's easier to remember , but have not always used it, my choice no one elses. And I have the scars to prove I fought for us to have those rights.

As for spam filters and not putting the full email address here. I work in the IT department for our company, and the spam filter we have in place just to keep the smut-mail out is an all day task by itself, we're talking thousands an hour not a day, so if the way others are using the words instead of fully qualified email address works .... good for them... less work for the IT departments:-)

As for the number of editors: not an issue of mine, the board is free, so they can have as many as they wish, more if they all want to spend time with thier familes.

Secrets are good, helps to keep some people alive...

On leaving; I would ask that you stay and once again add to the intelligent conversations that are all over this board.

Cheers and hoping you stay

Bruce S

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by RogerAS on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 06:23:38 PM MST

Bruce,

Good points all around on your part.

Do I agree with them all? No, but by damn you got all the right in the world to voice them.

As for email filters, here's what I do, and it works great. I set my email to send anything to the trash that doesn't contain a keyword I provide in advance in the title. Like my kids, 2 in Oregon one in Maryland, I just ask them to make all their titles "From Eric". I then sort through my trash once or twice a week to see if anything important was tossed, if not I clear out and start over.

Just because something is "free" doesn't allow a blanket "it's ok with me" attitude (by me). To not speak out when I feel there is a problem is acceptance. Acceptance of what one feels is wrong is another wrong. I was raised to stand up and never swallow a biter pill without objection. Sure folks are "free" to hide behind a pen name, and they have that right, but it doesn't make it right. That's one reason there are these problems. If people used their real names a lot of the "stuff" that happens here wouldn't. It's the bathroom wall thing. If you assign a statement to yourself you take responsibility. Simple solution it seems to me.

Yes Bruce, secrets are needed, but is someones life on the line, or our national security, by editorial assignment here? If this policy is needed, I think we the users deserve some sort of policy statement at the very least addressing this issue. Otherwise how do we know who deleted a post, or why? That's just me though, again.

Bruce I don't pretend to have all the answers, but it seems there are bloody few people even looking for them. That's what really gets my goat.

My reference to final posting was more acceptance of what could happen as a result of the content, not my intent.

Roger A. Stephenson
Roger AS
9 Years off-grid & counting
[ Parent ]

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Volvo farmer on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 07:27:21 PM MST

Wow, that was well presented. It appears that between this post and the other one, one of the editors has quit.

Here's my thoughts:

As for your second and third observations, I've found that the nature of message boards like this is that the same questions get asked over and over again. There's no stopping it, it's like trying to stop the wind. I think the reason people leave is because they get tired of answering the same questions time and again. However, I have also noticed that a new crop of people often step in to fill the shoes of those who have left. It's a shame to lose the input of knowledgeable people on message boards but I think it's almost inevitable. I've visited a Volvo message board for almost ten years now and people have come and gone but most of the questions, even the basic ones, seem to get answered. I know as I became more knowlegeable about Volvos, I tried to give back more than I received, so I would answer some of the same questions I had been schooled on months earlier. It's kind of beautiful if you look at it in this way.

As for your fourth observation, I hate to say it, but I agree. I've seen message boards roll along just fine with absolutely no editing. This one seems to suffer from the occasional spamming and I suppose deleting those messages makes things flow more smoothly but power tends to corrupt and editorial power is about as close to absolute power over this place as one can get. The ship's captain and crew analogy was very appropriate, I believe.

Lastly, and I got this from the other thread concerning editing. I truly believe that this would be a better, more manageable and more fum place if they threw out this Scoop software and went with PhpBB. The sticky features and the ability to categorize by subject would really improve the look and funcionality of this board.

Volvo Farmer

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by Tom in NH on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 09:26:43 PM MST

You raise good points, Roger. I have been troubled when I read some people's complaints about others who supposedly ask "dumb" questions. Maybe it's because I'm a teacher that I feel that people asking questions and others helping to provide answers is a beautiful thing... no matter how simple or advanced the questions may be.

If everything has already been answered and all you have to do is look it up, then there isn't much point in having a discussion board.

I think we should all practice a bit more tolerance, patience, respect and politeness. If there is a thread that does not interest me, it's easy enough to ignore it. It is still important to the contributor and other readers. They don't deserve to be insulted. --tom

Respect... (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by TomW on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 11:07:24 PM MST

Tom;

I think we should all practice a bit more tolerance, patience, respect and politeness.

Does that include respect for those who try to help around here keeping the ship afloat?

Just curious since I don't see much of it from here.

Since I wear multiple hats here both "Editor" and "user" I have tried to keep the two separate by using the Editor persona for "official" things and TomW for personal. Anyone who has been here long and paying attention would know that. There are very good reasons for this. A police officer may choose to have an unlisted number to avoid exposing his private life to the abuse he might see if his private information was public. I have been harassed by email, on IRC and on the board for my opinions. So I decided to use separate accounts for different actions.

I have discussed the editing policy with both DanF and DanB and both seemed to think there was no point in stating reasons for editorial actions, therefore I do not explain them.

O.K. the "mask" is off and I am back out of the closet. Everything I did here has been in good faith. Personally, I would be a lot more of a hardcase but it is not always just my feelings that I use in the process. Funny, I never heard anyone complain about the several hundred Chinese spambot posts I manually removed over the years that required hours of my time [probably because you never saw them]. Removing multiple posts by people who think they need to post the story to every topic which makes it impossible to track any of it. Or questions posted like "How big of a diesel generator do I need to run my house?". Totally off topic and insufficient information to provide useful answers if it was topical. But, some folks think we should coddle these people. I do not.

Man, I could go on but I won't. I just got a bit put off by RogerAS thinking I was hiding. My Name IS Tom W---------. and that is all anyone needs to know here. I am known by many on this board personally in the real world including the Dan[s]. I am far from perfect but I am always trying to be honest and I do not engage in deception.

As far as "Editorial Staff", RogerAS those are just words in a signature line much like wdyasq and his .sig line it is meaningless in the context you assumed. Mostly included to designate the Editor user as an actual editor here. There are 2 other editors and only one of them is semi active other than DanB and DanF. Need I go on?

None of this matters now. I considered quitting long before this day and I guess I just had the last bit of crap I was willing to take.

There is an old saying about walking a mile in the other guys shoes before criticizing him. The shoes are empty so now would be a good time for those who think it is so easy to do to put your money where your mouth is. There two other editors besides the Dans and I will not disclose their identities as it is not my place to do so but anyone who has been around and paying attention knows who one is. So, step up to the plate, folks here is your chance to consume hours of your life in a thankless job trying to please those who will not be pleased. It was rewarding for awhile helping bring this forum to where it is today but my work is finished here so I pass on the torch to whoever is foolish enough to take it.

I honestly tried.

TomW

The Truth is the Truth, even if no one believes it; and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it

[ Parent ]

Re: Respect... (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by kitno455 on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 08:00:15 AM MST

TomW- you and i often seem to come down on the same side of stupid posts, so i feel like perhaps we have similar temperments. I have done a board moderator job for a couple of years before, and burned out on it too, so i think perhaps we have the wrong personality for it :)

one place that we have always disagreed however, is the erasing of posts, or comments being disabled without any note as to why. on the face of it, it seems like less work just to trash stuff, but in the end, the person ends up posting the thread over again three times, and then again in a diary, and you have to blast them all, meanwhile no one sees whats going on.

not to mention the number of times that i have taken time to write a useful response to a noob, only to have you trash the original post right out from under me while i was working!

while i generally agree with your choice of threads to stop, i wonder if there is a better method. (perhaps if threads moved to the top based on most recent post, the crap threads would drop away...)

allan

[ Parent ]

Re: Respect... (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by finnsawyer on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 11:00:11 AM MST

Tom, I seem to remember you quiting as editor once before. Then apparently you came back. No problem with that. My post wasn't directed at you, but the question of censorship. Where do you draw the line? Not an easy call. I personally prefer a more freewheeling approach. If a posting is allowed to appear a great deal of care should be used when disabling comments. It is really hard to predict how people will respond to it. Since you editors reinstated the post of question you may check my response to it and decide for yourself whether it has any merit. You might also check my comment to Dinges under my post. Do you remember something along the lines of "the Permogater Saga". The fellow was convinced that he had a (dirty word coming) overunity device. After considerable effort I and others managed to show him how to make the measurements that convinced him it was not overunity. Then he disappeared. The question is, "Was the effort worth it?" We may never know, but I like to think that we helped him by keeping him from wasting years in pursuit of an impossible goal. And that generally is my goal. To help people avoid wasting their effort. Sometimes I may get cranky, but I mean no harm. Good luck whatever you do. I've always enjoyed your comments and insights.

Finnsawyer
GeoM
[ Parent ]

Respect What, Tom W---------? (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by RogerAS on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 12:54:09 PM MST

Tom W????,

I was going to quietly ride off into the sunset, but my hammer loop is off, my hat is tilted to the left and my cigarillo is smoldering between my teeth. ("Dyin' ain't much of a way to make a livin' boy". Waaa Waaa Wa.)

I'm not sorry if it hurts your feelings. A spade is a spade no matter how you paint it. Respect is, after all, earned. I find it impossible to respect a position that has no persona to which the position is attached. It's like big brother, power without identity. My entire point is that no person, editor or otherwise, should be allowed to have dual personas either here or in the real world. Would the ship really sink if we knew who was who? So, you've been harassed for your actions here. Maybe if you took a stand as a person instead of an unidentified entity you could deal with it easier and the attackers would have little ammunition to use against you. I've used this board for years and I didn't know until you responded who ED was. How was I supposed to know? That's my point.

I'm not asking for coddling for me or anyone. If we didn't have 18 topic headings from which to choose the multiple postings would vanish. I never understood the reason for the extreme topic multiplicity and I'm sure there are others as well that do not. Make it one topic, renewable energy for example, and be done with it. KISS principle. Explain what's wrong with that, or use the fabricated justification of your choice. That seems to be the new pattern here.

If this were my endeavor I would immediately implement the following:
All members would provide a real name, address, and phone #. None of that data would be made public. Before the member could post anything, the owners could establish the identity and validity. Even if a regular snail mail letter was required this could be done. This would eliminate ALL junk from internet robots and others, and make that portion of site control go away. (Maybe I've paid more attention than you think). If any poster stepped outside the rules of use they get one warning, the second violation terminates posting access. After such a change the editorial effort would drop greatly. If the staff, owners, volunteers or whomever don't want to make such changes the bitching about how tough it has become is moot and tiresome. Frankly it is very sad that there is a refusal to change mindset.

I formerly subscribed to the Dinosaur Mailing List, which is a moderated mailing list. (Look at the archives to get the picture http://dml.cmnh.org/ ). No I was not kicked off. There are sometimes dozens of new messages every day. The owners of that list spend far less time policing things than apparently is done here. Clear and strict rules, applied fairly, remove most problems before they start. It works. Also the owners and users of said mailing list make very clear who they are, using their real names, without paranoid bipolar identities.

This forum is the property of the "Dan's", (whoever that is) and apparently they feel, as you state, there is no reason to comment on editorial action. How are we the users supposed to know why an action was taken so the same "mistake" can be avoided in the future? I sure feels like "Ivory Tower" thinking to me. It's as if they're saying, "In my unlimited wisdom I've chosen and you don't need to know why because I'm too busy and you're too stupid". I find that impossible to respect, and in fact I find it a lazy, insulting and a disgusting abuse of power. It has no defense. Part of responsible ownership of such a forum is exactly this.

Tom W--------------. Comparing yourself to a police officer would be amusing if it were not so very very sad. Do you really think someone is going to be able to look you up and burn down you house around you over something posted or removed from here? I'd get some professional help for that level of paranoia, and soon. I'm not sorry that you are "put off" by my thinking you're hiding. I'm way past "put off". Nothing you have written changes that. Tom W----------- means nothing, you might as well have written "Editor" again. No I suppose I don't need to know any more than that. It tells me all I need to know. However you might just try being a man and take pride in your name, it feels good. Ask your therapist, his real name will appear on his diploma. If it reads Dr. W----------, I'd run.

I don't know what level of clarity it would take to get the point across, a real name equals a real person. So why should anyone feel bad about ruffling the feathers of a pseudonym? So far I sure don't. Walk a mile in your shoes? Isn't it very presumptuous of you to think I haven't? Tisk, tisk. Talk about rude statements that are supposed to be off limits, according to the page from which this is being entered. See, even the elite screw up sometimes.

Leave this posting up or take it down, it doesn't matter to me. Boot me off this forum or not, the truth remains. I know the emperor has no clothes, look at the chill bumps!

Roger A. Stephenson
Roger AS
9 Years off-grid & counting
[ Parent ]

Roger.... (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by TomW on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 03:26:06 PM MST

You know what, tough guy?

There are dozens on "aliases" on this board but you chose to assault me, I don't get it!

It is your Diary so I concede your points.

I never once asked anything of anyone here, not once.

You win.

Cheers.

TomW

The Truth is the Truth, even if no one believes it; and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it

[ Parent ]

Nobody Wins! (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by RogerAS on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 05:33:38 PM MST

Tom,

I really don't get it either. I thought I placed my words together fairly clearly.

I voiced my first posting along this line of thought with what I felt was restraint and tact. You responded in terms I felt were petty and abusive. Yep, I stood up for myself and that makes me a tough guy? That really reeks and you know it. Try to reread my previous without the carry-over anger that lead to your resignation. If you remember the Johnny Cool Pants episode you might also remember I stood up for you and defended this forum with vigor above and beyond.

Someone in the "Editorial Staff" might try addressing the issues I have raised. That's all I ever wanted! So far that hasn't happened and it ain't lookin' like it ever will.

Just to be clear the issues that concern(ed) me are:
What is the ever-loving problem with the use of true identities?
Why do there have to be 16 topic headings?
Why can't we get a simple email telling us our posting has been removed, and why?
Why do a select few here get to be consistently degrading and abusive?

Those are the issues, not if I'm a tough guy (or not). The most depressing part is I thought I might be able to make a difference by playing devils advocate. Man was I wrong. Oh well, it won't be the last time. It will, however, be the last time I try that here.

Let it go Tom. I was and am wrong OK? This forum isn't that important. So really you win, the board wins and I lose. I can deal with loss.

Roger A. Stephenson

P.S. The opening to my previous was a poor shot at humor. Never my strong suit.
Roger AS
9 Years off-grid & counting
[ Parent ]

I lose out (3.00 / 0) (#28)
by richhagen on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 02:50:46 AM MST

Enough already, jeesh
TomW, there are more than 5000 registered users. I can't poll them, but based on a spot survey of (1), me, I would guess that most people genuinly appreciate all of the hard work you have done over the years. I had hoped to stop by your place one day and see your tower and such, like Jaques did, maybe someday soon. Roger, I'm sorry your internet connection was gone for a couple of years. While I tend to agree with your point of allowing more of the basic question type posts in, it has to be reasonable. Of course I have the option of skipping over the repetitive or ones that I have no interest in. That doesn't take away from the volunteer, unpaid service that TomW and others have put into this place and the appreciation and admiration that I have for them. For all I know TomW might be a policeman, what does it matter I know for a fact that there are some who use this board. This is the internet, one doesn't have to reveal any more about ones self than they choose to. Judging by some of the flack he is getting, I probably wouldn't put too much information out there either. We all can benefit by sharing knowlege about a common interest. Roger, like you I don't like degrading responses to questions posted by people honestly looking for the answer, but it also doesn't make me happy to see someone who has freely given there time being given such a hard time about the decisions they have made in an honest attempt to keep things running smoothly, even if I don't agree with all of them. Stating that you disagree with the policy is one thing, but degrading the person is another. One last thing, I do the (at) thing in my e-mail address too, because I don't have an effective spam filter, and I don't have the time to research how to get and install one. A person can see what it is if they want to contact me, but a computer crawling the internet has a harder time recognizing it and adding it to a list to spam, at least I hope that is the case. Rich Hagen
'A Joule saved is a Joule made'
[ Parent ]

Re: Respect What, Tom W---------? (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by oztules on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 06:15:42 PM MST

Roger, you have provided a name but have earned no respect here. It takes more than a name.

Attacking Tomw for reasons that reflect your deep rooted mental disposition, rather than the substance of what he has done, is sad.

Tomw has given his time and expertise to this forum in good faith, and character assination just because you don't agree with his rulings, or worse still based on lack of a proper name is trite.

Your real name was meaningless, except that now it stands for intolerance... get a life.

And to Tomw....(who's real name may be Monco Eldono Zey Domicas the 43rd. for all i care) we didn't agree on much, but I admire your integrity, willingness to help and willingness to put in. Thanks for your massive contribution...

In this place Tomw is Tomw

............oztules

[ Parent ]

Auzzie is 'e? (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by RogerAS on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 07:55:32 PM MST

Oz Whatever Whoever you are,

I care not to earn respect, yours least of all. You are one of the people I have referenced as condescending and rude. As is self evident.

You hide behind a made up name too. If you have an opinion be a real person and use your name. Otherwise you're just a whiff of vapor that could be anyone, and your grand opinion of me means NOTHING! I think I may have to cry myself to sleep tonight over what you think of me. Well, maybe not.

Read my latest response to Tom. Apparently they teach a different form of English in your socialist state than here in America.

I am addressing editorial policy, not implementation. If you could understand as much as you seem to think you can you will see the subtle difference. Those are big words, see if you can get your mommy to explain this to you if you don't understand.

I feel more respect for Tom than you could possibly understand. He's a big boy and can fight his own wars. Your weak defensive attempts are what we Americans call sucking up. In case you didn't know we Americans have a thing for fighting, and we do it well. Even among family. Are you sure you want a piece of this?

Yep, I'm a trite, intolerant and opinionated American. Tell me something I don't already know. Heck I'm also an eater of animal flesh, an atheist and maybe worst of all a liberal. Gosh I hope no children read this.

Does anyone else see the pattern here? Some unamed person can say whatever they want. Without names any slanderous or liablous statement is free and clear, no responsibility! Gosh, what a concept, taking responsibilty for ones actions. I know, it'll never work.

Roger A. Stephenson
Roger AS
9 Years off-grid & counting
[ Parent ]

Re: Auzzie is 'e? (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by vawtman on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 08:11:38 PM MST

Roger you made your point and PUT THE BUNNY BACK IN THE BOX .Who cares if you have a crazy nickname or a stamped degree aside your name.Enjoy or leave sorry the radial design didnt make the front page.Is that what started this bickering.Come On

[ Parent ]

Re: Auzzie is 'e? (3.00 / 0) (#30)
by RogerAS on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 05:37:34 AM MST

No I could care less about the radial flux thing. I intentionally posted it to my diary. Nobody but me cares about what concerns me, even if those concern could make this a better forum. Like I said, I'm done.
Roger AS
9 Years off-grid & counting
[ Parent ]

Re: Auzzie is 'e? (3.00 / 0) (#27)
by oztules on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 02:50:07 AM MST

Roger

I had not seen your post (#17), and if I had I would have not have written my post (#18) as it would have been unnecessary as your #17 addressed the personal attacks I felt you had unreasonably launched on Tomw. I believe that he has acted in good faith.

My post was a direct response to post #10, and without the knowledge of your later post .

So when I read your #20, I went back and found your #17.

They do teach a slightly different English over here, but not that different.

If this is a socialist country, then no-one has told me. Last I looked, it was one of the most stable democracies in the world, and how that got dragged in I don't understand.

In #10, you barely addressed anything other than your pet ID. rants, in #17 yes you do directly address the issues that concern the board.

You said #20 "I feel more respect for Tom than you could possibly understand.".... It's good to see that you now feel this way, in #10, you accorded him no respect at all.

You say "Yep, I'm a trite, intolerant and opinionated American. Tell me something I don't already know. Heck I'm also an eater of animal flesh, an atheist and maybe worst of all a liberal"..ok You seem to feel that if you yell louder and throw a tantrum and attack the person that you disagree with, it some how makes you right..... it doesn't. Your #17 was a fair document, your #10 was not.

I can see your disappointment with my #18 if you thought it was attacking your #17. It was not.

Also if paying due respect for a difficult job well done in thankless circumstances, is a crime where you come from, or is construed as sucking up, then you come from a miserable environment.

I still admire Toms integrity, time, help and the huge personal contribution one has to have made to do the job he has done..., and if he calls himself Tomw then I dont think less of him. He has pulled my post in the past (off topic I assume, I didn't ask), and we have argued over board content, but I still admire what he has done. I think his heart is in the right place, and didn't deserve the vitriol you poured on him in #10

You said "You are one of the people I have referenced as condescending and rude."..

It has not been my intention to be so, I shall check my posts and see about my behaviour in this aspect.

This is only what I think, you obviously think differently and I no longer care. But you do deserve to know which post I was responding to and why

And:

"Are you sure you want a piece of this" is for the movies.

Now it's your thread, you are obviously free to respond to this as you see fit. I am ending my input here....you can have the last word on it, as between my slow response and scoop, the post ended up in the wrong place, ie not under #10, and I hadn't seen your #17

...........oztules

[ Parent ]

Re: Auzzie is 'e? (3.00 / 0) (#29)
by oztules on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 03:07:39 AM MST

Sorry Roger,

I meant to put in one more thing. I disagree completly with Dinges, Tomw, Ronb and anyone else who feels that simple, repetative, or any other question is worth killing.

Providing it is not too far fetched (no relation at all), all questions are valid, and deserve answering, no matter how many times they have been asked. If they didn't want to know, they would not have asked, those that write derisory comments about the questioner because of research, no of times answered etc, are missing the point of a question board. people want answers, that's why they come here.

I'll shut up now
.........oztules

[ Parent ]

Re: Auzzie is 'e? (3.00 / 0) (#43)
by Bruce S on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 03:26:26 AM MST

To My Fellow Earthlings:
I am putting it this way as I, request not to be grouped into the American stereotype put forth by RogerAS.

I am a second generation American with proud lineages from both sides of my parents.

I am also a very well traveled American so I can talk to most posters here about the different areas of our world, except AU & NZ, just haven't had the chance to make it there, but I do make it a habit to speak with some lovely sounding nurses in Christchurch and Perth on a weekly basis.

Roger; When I first answered your email I did it in a manner that I had hoped would continue to be on an intelligent manner.

It has not happened, that has gotten even worse than over in the rants area.
Yes, I did read this entire post before I put this in this part of the comments as this is the one real itme I couldn't let go of.And I am aware that you've possibly signed off posting here. to that end I say GOOD. and bye-bye.

Bickering back and forth over someone ele's right to use whatever name they chose to use is indeed a waste of time. With that I'll also say your welcome, 'cause I know you're saying thank you to those who chose to fight for our very right to choose; right....

Remember Roger you brought the politics into this not anyone else.

It is true as an American I am up for the fight , but I perfer to listen and talk first. I've tried the other way, only now I'm smart enough to know there's more important things to fight for. Whining because we choose to use handles or partial names IS stupid. It is our right, it's like called freedom...dude

Attacking the way some read/write/speak is also stupid, how many languages can you do? and not look like a fool....

To the rest of the Earthlings... how's the weather,quel temps fait-il,wie das Wetter ist,come è il tempo,hoe het weer is, and A?

Bruce S

[ Parent ]

Re: Respect... (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by Tom in NH on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 09:44:44 PM MST

> Does that include respect for those who try to help around here
> keeping the ship afloat?

> Just curious since I don't see much of it from here.

Of course it does. You are responsible for at least half of the high quality of this site. Please don't get too irate when people seem unappreciative because I don't think people properly realize how much work you've contributed. You keep yourself so invisible. I certainly didn't realize you did so much editing and moderating.

Your silent approach may be something future editors will want to reconsider. I believe reasons for editing decisions should be constantly explained. That's how people learn the ground rules? It's how people realize what goes into the making of the site.

I've done a fair amount of editing of paper newsletters and journals. It's harrowing work when you try so hard to please readers only to have them complain about something. It requires a thick skin and an outright refusal to allow oneself to lower to the level of the complainers. --tom

[ Parent ]

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by dinges on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 08:05:29 AM MST

Tom,

I am not a teacher nor will I ever become one. I don't have the right personality for it. Nor the patience. However, I find I have a lot more patience with kids than with adults. Don't know why.

However, regarding 'dumb' questions. My favourite physics teacher had a quote:

'There are stupid questions and there are good questions. To the stupid questions I won't give the answer, to the good questions I don't know the answer.'

It may be a bit of an overstatement, but you get the idea.

Also, I never spoke of 'dumb' questions but LAZY questions. I.e., a question that one can answer oneself by spending 30 seconds googling the obvious search words. Or even pondering, with an impartial mind, the matter for a few matter (like 'why is it that not everybody has a diesel generator to start selling electricity to the grid and become rich?')

I honestly hope that you are not the kind of teacher that pre-digests everything for his students. If I were a teacher, I would try to teach knowledge but, most of all, an impartial mindset and critical thinking. Both require an ACTIVE attitude, not the passive digesting of wise words from the teacher. They will need such a mindset in university; they will need it even more in real life, if they don't want to be continuously ripped off (like when I try to sell them my latest over-unity machine).

Just my opinion.

Peter.

[ Parent ]

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by Don Cackleberrycreations on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 05:01:17 PM MST

Strange I was always told the only stupid question was the one not asked.
You might consider "why is the sky blue??" a stupid question but when its coming from my three year old its an honest inquirery .
I am of the opinion ask what ever you want helpfull people will reply ,pricks will complain , and many will ignore. you can choose to be in whichever catagory you wish.
poor unedekated redneck with attitude
[ Parent ]

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by Tom in NH on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 10:07:31 PM MST

> I honestly hope that you are not the kind of teacher that
> pre-digests everything for his students. If I were a teacher,
> I would try to teach knowledge but, most of all, an impartial
> mindset and critical thinking.

Hi Peter,
I teach in a prison. We have youth and adults in classes. They are all either dropouts or were kicked out of their previous schools. Mainly I try to get them interested in learning something, anything, and then try not to get in the way. Some start out with pre-digested material because that's what they're comfortable with. It's a starting point, not an ending point. As you said, only a very small part of teaching is about teaching knowledge. Most of it is about learning. --tom

"Education makes it possible to sit and listen to almost anything and not lose your temper or your self-confidence." --Mark Twain

[ Parent ]

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#32)
by hvirtane on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 07:01:15 AM MST

I teach in a prison.
We have youth and adults in classes.
They are all either dropouts
or were kicked out of
their previous schools.

I think that it would be a wonderful place
to start doing renewable energy technology
for example wind machines.

Why don't you make with them a copy
of Tim's turbine?

During that course you could
teach the people mathematics,
physics and some other matters, too.

In my country they are trying to invent
all kinds of products people could
make in prisons. If you could start
making wind machines there in prisons
I would try doing something similar here.
I'm not working for any prison but
I think that I could have some
influence here with a local prison,
where they are trying to make some
practical things.

- Hannu

[ Parent ]

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by iFred on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 10:38:04 PM MST

your not wrong in your statement of "noticable absence of posters", or more accurately the ones that have stuck around this long. I agree with some of what you have stated and disagree with other comments. read my post regarding the editor that left. an editor is required to maintain the stability and the sprit of the board, but he/she must do this without bias, this however has been the problem as you mentioned clearly, and as a result we have lost or are going to loose some of the more knowledgeable people out their - I hope not. So at least stick around and see if changes are being made and perhaps things might clear up again, or at least pop in from time to time and say hello.

I wish you well Roger.
>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by hvirtane on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 02:11:23 PM MST

Maybe you guys are just taking this game too seriously. Making wind machines should be funny?

There certainly are many kinds of people on this board. For some people doing renewable energy things is their way of making their living. For some others it is just a hobby. Some people are students, who are posting on this board to learn the things. I think that the variety of the posters is an important matter to keep this board living.

I'm in the agreement that there is no stupid question. It is true that some people are more lazy than some others. But often, if it is really easy to point out, where to find the answer to a question, then it really is easy to point out, where to find the answer... :-) So why not posting the information there for the questioner? That was actually her/his question, where to get that information?

In my opinion editors of this board have done their job quite OK. Sometimes I've been feeling that some posts have been removed too easily and some people have answered too unfriendly to some questions, but this kind of things just happen, nobody is perfect.

- Hannu

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by ghurd on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 04:22:35 PM MST

I too think the editors do just fine, and have had a couple posts zapped myself.

I make a reasonable part of my living from RE related devices.

It amazes me how everyone will show a newbie how to make a windmill from scratch, including higher level harmonics, but snub questions about how to use it. Like pointing them to a Google of 7806. Or why a blocking diode is not needed after a bridge. Or why a bypass diode is not needed on a 12V solar system...

While I'm at it, Sticky Posts suck. Maybe it's just me.
A question can be about 9/12. Then some one asks "I only have room for 11 magnets". Next is about 18/24. Then it is 500 comments long, most not at all relative to 9/12.
Then who would read enough to make any sense of any of it.
For example the Duck post. It was fun. I even Googled the damn thing! Should it be at the #1 place here because it had 50+ and counting responses?

I have no problem spending $100 to prove something won't work. It's fun.

Not sure, Hannu, why I put it here. No offence meant. I meant to agree with you.
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by bob g on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 02:48:38 PM MST

well i too have been around off and on since back on the old board.
i regret not being able to do much in the AE arena for the last couple of years

one day :)

i do pop in and out, from time to time to see what is up here.

my take on the bruha:

there will always be new guys, that ask simple questions that have been asked and answered over and over. Some of these guys will even ask before doing a search on the board. Some are just plain too dumb to even consider trying to make a windmachine over the size of a pin wheel for safety reasons.

two points,

i think there needs to be as much tolerance as possible, maybe a gentle suggestion to do the "search" and get educated, and,..

there really isn't a stupid question, sometimes a question that appears to be stupid or simplistic will elicit a responce from someone else that might shed light on another topic, or as a sidebar.

myself i have had my frustration with the board, usually because the group hasn't moved in the technical direction that i am seeking info on.
as an example years ago i tried in vain to explore the possibility of using PWM to optimize rotor/blade speed in relation to alternator output. Didn't get very far at the time, but i see now folks are working in that direction and exploring the possibility of using just that.

I can appreciate the work that goes in moderating and editing this board, no one gets paid for it i am sure. We are all human, and will make mistakes on either side of the board. i think we need tolerance for both the poster and the editor.

a while back the board format was changed to include a front page, for reasons of google searches bringing up what the editors believe is better content to improve the image of the site in general.

i want to be careful and constructive (so please don't take offense), but i don't think that posts on the front page should be "what the dog's did last weekend"
i rerely look at those posts because of the title, i am sure i am missing something in doing so, but i look to this board for technical info that a DIY can use.

not saying that "what the dogs did last weekend" doesn't belong here, but maybe not
on the front page. Repetitive questions, simple questions and the like don't belong on the front page either. Also critism of the board, its editors, and moderators, dont belong on the front page either.

I too miss alot of the old guys that used to be on here, i hope all are well, and i
hope they didnt leave because of boredom, or being turned off by changes in the board and content.

perhaps we should email the editors/moderators with complaints rather than air them here. perhaps i too have said too much and have ruffled feathers, and upset folks.

i sincerely hope not.

bob g,
bob gayle, tacoma washington

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by SparWeb on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 04:42:31 PM MST

I've used other technical fora in the past, and when I came across this one, last year, I found a much more informal atmosphere than I was used to. After years of typing out answers to various tough & easy questions, I've learned several things:

Mold the message to the audience,
Consider your integrity, the integrity of the site, before answering,
Do not write out a textbook.

Going over basic things can be fun, and, of course, what "discussion" could exist if people didn't ask questions? I like to participate, because sometimes folks post things that really pique my interest. I "give" so that I may "receive" advice when I ask questions, though many people don't want to invest that much time. And when I do ask questions, I make sure to carefully explain the problem (in complete sentences) so that I can be understood. This level of etiquette is not always used.

Shoot-from-the-hip questions, with no useful info about the problem, leaves you with the choice of either answering as broadly as possible, which risks turning into the textbook, or telling someone where they should be finding the info for themselves. I nowadays lean toward telling someone where to start, to learn for themselves.

If this sounds snotty to you, then too bad! I doubt you would appreciate typing out long explanations to members who might not understand you, not put any of your help into practice!

An example of a posting that earned a pointed reply from me:

I've seen towers used for basic signage where they're sleeved in a telescopic way,
from 12" to 10" to 8 " etc. Foundations required ?? I've seen pics on otherpower
of enough towers resembling pretzels and really want to spare myself that. Also,
has anyone seen/used the multi-sided sleeved towers they make for cell phone transmissions ? I know a company named Valmont makes them and one is on Ebay now.
They're just tapered and each section slides over the lower section. BIG BUCKS even
on Ebay. What wind load are most towers designed to meet ? thanks,

Roger, are you willing to direct this fellow to the right kind of telescoping sleeve to support his windmill?

My first response to this posting is "You gotta be kidding", and I told him just that! What else can I say, with any personal integrity? Like, "go ahead, try it, but stand back when you do"?

This fellow turned out to know a bit about towers after all, but none of that showed in the original posting. If he had taken the time to formulate the same question more clearly, a response would have been easier, too. The way it was, it was just a jumble.

As much as anything else, some posts require a reality check (like the perpetual motion machines mentioned before), before moving on to useful advice. If the original poster can't swallow the reality check, then I won't coddle them.

One last point: Just because I typed something on the forum, doesn't mean I OWN it! The Editor always has the right to, by golly, EDIT!

I'll stand up for Tom W any day.

If you don't, then create your own forum. Unfortunately you'll be stuck with editorial decisions, from time to time...

Steven Fahey

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by halfcrazy on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 07:50:48 PM MST

I have to agree it would be nice to get some kina notification when they delete a post. as a newcomber to the home brew wind generaters this sight has been awsume. i have noticed if the questions have to do with dino fuel generators or lots of other things related to off grid living they just zap the posts. example i was trying to build a electric lawn mower and got lots of greef for posting questions here mostly cause i posted 3 times thinking something was wrong with my computer as i didnt know they where getting zapped. As far as newbys asking repeat questions or "stupid" questions i would have to say from my experience on a forestry forum i frequent that any time a repeat question comes up it seems like something new is always learned? just my 2 cents but if it bothers anyone dont bother to post to it if you have anything constructive to add fine. I to have become a less frequent visitor here as it seems anyone just looking for a little pointer in the right direction is sent packing and called "stupid" if this is the class we must be in to build our own windmills then i have a 10 ft machine that is for sale cheap.

Rant over i will sign off and join the others that have gone by the wayside

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by powerbuoy on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 08:41:29 PM MST

Face it guys, ... you are dealing with 5000 more or less renewable excited personalities.

The will never be a situation where everybody is happy.

You take the editor out - people will scream for an editor the first time somebody posts the "F" word three times to describe his turbine project

You keep the editor - somebody will scream because his post for a new zero point energy turbine got deleted

I got shafted when my first VAWT was posted, ... guess what ... life went on.

The board is in general very well done. I do not want to miss it. I like the idea of letting people at least know that their post was deleted.

Powerbuoy

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by DanB on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 10:18:22 PM MST

Thanks for your comments there. And... everyone else. I was just going to keep out of all this but what the heck.

Here are my thoughts on all this.

This board is free and there's a lot of great folks here. Tom W is had done an excellent job of moderating the board and he's right when he says its a thankless job and the pay sucks (hes volenteered his help). I dont always agree with his moves - neither do lots of other folks, that's inevitable. On rare occasion I'll undo what he's done but not very often, I usually agree with his choices.

I do feel this is a discussion board - I've been on a few others and its my opinion that it is the nature of discussion boards to revisit the same topics over and over. It may seem redundant sometimes - often times new ideas come up about old topics though. Searching the board is not always easy. I don't personally mind if the same topic comes up over and over although there is that point where it becomes tedious and I expect there is a line there for everybody (and that line will be different for everybody). Basicly I feel that.. if you're not interested in a posting then dont read it - but - to a point. We don't want the board cluttered with too much redundant stuff. This is where it's up to the editors to draw the line.

When postings do get blocked I try to email the folks and explain why it happened and suggest what they might do differently. I don't always do this - but often I do. It all takes time and effort, this board is not our 'business' it's a free resource that we started mostly for fun because we are deeply interested in the topic and I think it's turned into a really neat community. Not everybody will be happy all the time but overall I think it goes quite well and I think most folks here are having a great deal of fun (which is what it should all be about).

Our 'editorial staff' consists of a few volenteers, and myself and 'Admin' (DanF) who help a great deal and I have no doubt they make this a better place and I'm grateful for their efforts. I'm also grateful to everyone else here who obviously care about this place and offer their thoughts on improving things.

[ Parent ]

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#34)
by finnsawyer on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 09:46:26 AM MST

Perhaps a list could be provided of posts that have been deleted each day. Then a registered user could be empowered to view any or all of them if he wishes. Sort of a private viewing. Then he could request its reinstatement by attaching the comment he wishes to make. I know on one occasion I questioned the deleting of a post, which turned out to be well justified (the deleting, that is).

I've been wondering about those deleted Chinese posts. It's too bad those posts couldn't be translated. I keep having this feeling in the back of my mind that one day we will find the Chinese making superior wind power systems using things they learned from this site. It'd be nice to know what they are up to. Just a thought.
GeoM
[ Parent ]

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#35)
by willib on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 07:28:09 PM MST

yes i see one has attached itslf to the end of Flux's thesis!!
it has a million links to it , its all links!!
user name : awv5600 has attached four of these around the board.

Carpe Ventum (seize the wind)
[ Parent ]

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#36)
by willib on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 07:31:44 PM MST

i tried using altavista bablefish to see what it said , but it is beyond my abilities.

Carpe Ventum (seize the wind)
[ Parent ]

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#37)
by TomW on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 08:07:05 PM MST

willib;

Yeah, doesn't take a genius or translator to see its SPAM. I refuse to remove these and doubt anyone else will. I personally took the liberty of putting posting limits in place to specifically limit the # that could be posted per time span or you would see dozens every time.

Just watch while one leads to hundreds once they see this board as an easy mark when they stay in place and how it helps their site get google page ranks. It is subtle stuff and very few people "get" it. No way they care about this site they are just SPAM to get links on a popular site for MONEY.

As plain as the nose on Karl Maldens face.

Cheers.

Your X Editor.

TomW

The Truth is the Truth, even if no one believes it; and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it

[ Parent ]

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#38)
by finnsawyer on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 09:42:03 AM MST

I get the point. Nor did I ever take issue with deleting such stuff. Heck, we all get spam. For some reason I get stuff supposedly for ming jewls. Keeps coming. I was of the opinion that some of the Chinese stuff would have been legit. Guess I was naive. But you didn't say they were clearly spam. So, after considering this matter a little I would like to recommend that in the future rather than disabling comments the editors deep six the post completely. Don't leave any kind of record of it. Or is that impossible with the current software? Anyway, if you don't see it, you won't be bothered by it. Obviously different people can have different opinions about a post once it appears. Nor do I see the use of slightly strong language to be an issue. Just read some of the threads.
GeoM
[ Parent ]

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by Countryboy on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 10:38:35 PM MST

I've only been reading and posting for maybe 6 months. I can't compare how the board is now to how the board used to be. I can only give my opinions on what I see.

My opinion is that there is nowhere near enough moderation here.

There most certainly are 'dumb' questions. I honestly have no idea why the Dans pay for bandwidth to allow an uneducated poster to ask questions that are already answered on the Otherpower.com website. We live in the 'me me me, right now' world attitude, and those folks need to grow up. If they are too lazy to take the time to read Otherpower.com and gain a knowledge base about renewable energy, it's my opinion they shouldn't be allowed to post.

I can understand if a newbie is asking for clarification of something from Otherpower, if they didn't quite understand it fully. I have little patience for someone who is too lazy to educate themselves, rather than wanting everyone else to give them a drink from the fountain of knowledge, when they are perfectly capable of getting their own drink.

I also believe that fieldlines is about PRACTICAL renewable energy. Then again, knowing if something is practical or not requires common sense, and it appears that common sense is getting pretty uncommon in today's world.

I have to agree with TomW's reasoning for having multiple identities. You should always keep business and pleasure separate.

Yes, there are 'elite' posters. They are the few that actually know what they are talking about. They are attempting to teach a handful of students, while a swarm of idiots who have no idea what they are talking about, and they are trying to drown out the teaching and go off on irrelevant topics because they want some attention.

To suggest that 'having a life' is a valid justification for folks who don't do their homework is pure BS. Their priorities are in the worng place. You play AFTER you work, not before. I don't ask my coworkers to do my work for me because I have a life which interferes. In school, I didn't ask classmates to do my work because my studies interfered with having a life. If having a life interferes with your RE education, then you don't need the RE education.

The problem is not that there is a staff of editors in the fieldlines community. The problem is that there are too many village idiots.

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#31)
by zubbly on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 05:51:43 AM MST

hmmmmmmm, ok guys,

TIME FOR A GROUP HUG!!!!!!

zubbly

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#41)
by BT Humble on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 09:50:21 PM MST

hmmmmmmm, ok guys,
TIME FOR A GROUP HUG!!!!!!

Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya... ;-)

BTH

[ Parent ]

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#33)
by Devo on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 08:03:31 AM MST

I'll tell you the people running the site have alot more tolerance than I ever will.

I don't believe it is there duty to make us happy , & if your not happy with things why are you coming here? I'll tell you why because it is the best source on the internet for help building a windmill to generate electricity.

I have done a small induction motor conversion & am working on 2 more. I have built a 500 watt dual rotor , a 200 to 300 watt dual rotor & 2 or 3 pm motor windmills.Before coming here I always wanted to build one but could never find enough answers to my questions to do it-now I can't stop.....

I use this site for what it is intended & it has taught me a quite a bit , I still come here to learn more.

Thanks for the Great site, that's my opinion

Devin

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#39)
by wooferhound on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 04:00:14 PM MST

I read http://slashdot.org daily. It's a Tech News Site where members submit stories for consideration to be added to the main page. The vast majority of stories (including all of mine) are just thrown away.

But there is a second level where if the story has some interest, it is included on the main page with just the title without the summery.

It would be cool to have a Topic area where all of the deleted posts get moved to. so we could still review and make comments if we wanted to.
W o o f -={(

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#40)
by oztules on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 06:05:17 PM MST

Wooferhound,

I think you have the answer right there. "It would be cool to have a Topic area where all of the deleted posts get moved to. so we could still review and make comments if we wanted to."

Maybe that would be a compromise that solves the conflicting interests.

Worth the post I feel............oztules

[ Parent ]

Re: Repeated threads (3.00 / 0) (#42)
by electrondady1 on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 06:47:01 AM MST

"Maybe that would be a compromise that solves the conflicting interests." carefull now oz , that's an idea that absolutly reeks of......socialism !! remember woof , we like magnetism not comunism lol

[ Parent ]

Repeated threads | 43 comments (43 topical)

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