any thing wrong with this ?
By luckeydog, Section Wind Posted on Mon Sep 11, 2006 at 11:59:16 PM MST
6volt 12 volt

I would like to know if there is any thing wrong with wiring my wind generator like this. my wind generator produces a more constant charge at a 6 volt charge than a 12 volt. I rather be charging my batteries most of the day than waiting for stronger winds only once in a while. I have a 150 watt solar panel that charges a 12 volt bank of batteries and I have my wind generator charging into the bank at 6 volts I have two 12 batteries wired parallel and two 6volt batteries wired in series all wired together as 12VDC. is there any problem with doing this. I don't see any problem with it but i could be over looking something. Thanks Luckeydog

any thing wrong with this ? | 25 comments (25 topical)

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#1) by luckeydog on Mon Sep 11, 2006 at 06:02:31 PM MST

here is the ms paint drawing how it is configured. don't laughf I don't have a degree in ms paint :) wind gens are much funner to watch than solar panels. Broomfield,Colorado

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#3) by Tallwind82 on Mon Sep 11, 2006 at 08:48:15 PM MST

I think this is more like what you want. The diodes may not be necessary, depending on the circutry of the solar charge controller, better safe than sorry. With the way you had it drawn, the windmill would send full voltage through the lower 6 volt battery rather than split it between both 6 volt batteries. Unless the combined capacity and voltage of the 6 volt batteries is close to the capacity and voltage of each 12 volt battery you will have problems. There have been several postings in the past about mixing batteries. Whenever you have two significantly different batteries you have potential for problems. Good luck Robert Bigger is almost always better, especially with windmills. [ Parent ]

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#5) by luckeydog on Mon Sep 11, 2006 at 10:16:14 PM MST

hey Robert thanks for replying :)  the way you have it drawn I would have the cut in voltage at 12 volts. what i want to have is a cut in voltage of 6 volts. yes i can split the current between the 6volt and 12 volt but it will still have a cut in at 12.  Here is another of my skilled ms paint drawings of what the voltage reads with the volt meter. and i am glad you brought up mixing batteries ... I did not think of that. wind gens are much funner to watch than solar panels. Broomfield,Colorado [ Parent ]

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#2) by Titantornado on Mon Sep 11, 2006 at 06:42:26 PM MST

Looks like you have positive coming in to both terminals of the upper 6v battery.  That battery would be receiving a reversed charge from the 12v charging system.  Unless I'm mistaken, it looks like this won't work. Rod

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#4) by makenzie71 on Mon Sep 11, 2006 at 09:59:16 PM MST

If I understand you correctly it should work.  I have a similar setup. My working turbine makes between 3 and 4 volts anytime the wind is moving so what I did is wire it up to a set of four Balck and Decker VersaPak batteries.  The turbine is wired to all the versapak batteries in parallel, and each battery is isolated with diodes (which is very important otherwise they would short out and probably be dangerous).  The batteries are then wired in series to yield what I usually see is 13.2 volts.  The VPak batteries are then wired to a parallel pair of gator clip sets which I'm using to maintan my bike's and mower's batteries.  The following diagram only shows the connection with one battery and both the posative and negative leads on the turbine/battery/battery leads have blocking diodes. ^ditto

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#6) by RP on Mon Sep 11, 2006 at 10:19:53 PM MST

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see how any of these can work.  You cannot simultaneously charge more than one 6 volt battery while they are connected in series for 12volts. The best you could do without somewhat sophisticated electronics is to charge at 6 volts and then using switches or jumpers, reconnect them for 12volts.

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#7) by makenzie71 on Mon Sep 11, 2006 at 10:25:33 PM MST

It works and it's not complicated to figure it out.  Flowing power along a irreversible path to a battery will charge that battery.  Then you can use that battery as a source of power...and you can use that power to charge another battery. ^ditto [ Parent ]

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#8) by luckeydog on Mon Sep 11, 2006 at 10:47:41 PM MST

ok now that makes some sense to me ... should I have a diode where I have it colored blue where the 2 6 volt are connected in series. thanks for all of your input:) Luckeydog wind gens are much funner to watch than solar panels. Broomfield,Colorado [ Parent ]

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#9) by makenzie71 on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 12:58:58 AM MST

I could be wrong...I have what I call a good understanding of simple circuitry, but I have no formal education or training regarding this, so my advice is at your own risk.  I just know this setup is working for me. I think this is what you should be seeing: ^ditto [ Parent ]

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#10) by maker of toys on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 02:24:40 AM MST

as drawn, the windmill's power will flow only through the upper left diode, around the jumper and out through the upper right diode.  Even if you manage not to blow the diodes open (or worse, short), you will not charge the batteries in that arrangment, as all you will have is the 2 diode voltage drops for charge voltage.  (figure 1.4-1.6 total Volts, as ball park numbers with cheap diodes. . . . if you're using schottkey diodes, it'll be even smaller. ) if you can get usefull current  (>3 amps) out at 7 volts or so (needed to actually charge a 6 volt battery) then a simple time-delay relay that flops the gen back and forth between batteries once per second (or whatever) or other ad-crockery might do the trick. I'm not recommending that course of action. . . eventually the relay will quit or weld itself, and you'll be back where you are now.  But it could potentially get you going until you can make a better fix. My vote: save the heartache and modify the mill to make more power in the winds you have. It's not a case of 'Save the planet,' it's a case of 'Save the humans.' [ Parent ]

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#13) by luckeydog on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 09:27:35 PM MST

I have been charging the batteries so far with out any problems as shown in the first diagram. It dose work I was just wondering if there were any ill affects of doing it this way. I just want to be able to make the most of the wind gen I have. Yes it would be great modify the wind gen but at this time that is just not practical. hopefully i will have the money and time to build a 10 ft. turbine as some others have. wind gens are much funner to watch than solar panels. Broomfield,Colorado [ Parent ]

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#14) by ghurd on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 09:54:25 PM MST

The lower right 6V battery is the only thing being charged with wind. The both 6V batteries, and the 12V batteries, are being charged with solar. The pair of 6Vs are at the same voltage as the 12V batteries. Meaning, the 6V being charged by the wind is over charging, while the other 6V is under charged. Not a good situation. I expect both 6V will have short lives. Changing the PMA doesn't need to be expensive. Like $30 for another Ametek or PM motor... Maybe stop at the local furnace repair place and ask about a blown-up GE ECM or 2. Or 3! G- Ghurd.info [ Parent ]

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#22) by luckeydog on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 04:16:15 PM MST

Actually all the batteries will benefit from putting the charge into the single six volt battery. all the batteries do level out. it is much like having two air tanks connected by one hose. the pressure will level out and become equal between the two. I have checked this and fond both 6 volt batteries to be the same voltage. also the two 12 volt batteries are equal to the two six volt batteries in series. so the one battery dose not get over charged. :) Luckeydog wind gens are much funner to watch than solar panels. Broomfield,Colorado [ Parent ]

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#24) by ghurd on Thu Sep 14, 2006 at 08:51:02 AM MST

Nope. For clairity, remove the 12V batteries and solar panels. Solar charging amps and the 12V batteries are not relative to windmill charging amps. If there is a 12V load, both 6V batteries supply current equaly. The windmill charges 1 battery. The other goes dead. "like having two air tanks connected by one hose" If current flows from the charged 6V to the dead 6V, that is a load and will make the dead battery... well, 'go more deader'. Now add the 12V and solar back in. The solar amps are charging both 6V batteries equaly, so it has no effect on their imbalance. If both 6V batteries are the same voltage, the windmill is doing nothing of any significance. See GeoM's post starting with "Flowing power..." G- Ghurd.info [ Parent ]

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#25) by luckeydog on Thu Sep 14, 2006 at 11:51:02 PM MST

well i did not start this thread to argue , but i suggest you try it and see for your self. :) wind gens are much funner to watch than solar panels. Broomfield,Colorado [ Parent ]

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#18) by finnsawyer on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 08:05:08 AM MST

"Flowing power along a irreversible path to a battery will charge that battery.  Then you can use that battery as a source of power...and you can use that power to charge another battery."  Yes, but only if the batteries are then connected in parallel.  You must have both six volt batteries connected in parallel to charge them both at the same time.  There are two rules or laws that apply to a situation like this (circuit theory).  One states that the sum of all the voltages around a loop is always zero.  The other states that the sum of all the currents flowing into a junction is always zero.  Or to put it another way, the sum of all the voltage rises (sources, the solar panels or the wind mill) in a loop must be equal to the sum of all the voltage drops (batteries, diodes, and wires in this case) in that loop, and the sum of all the currents flowing into a junction must be equal to the sum of all the currents flowing out of the junction.  Basically, you are trying to violate these rules, which won't work. GeoM [ Parent ]

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#20) by makenzie71 on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 12:20:42 PM MST

If you take a look at my posts, and simply the picture, I do note that all the "lowervoltage" batteries are charging in parallel. I stated that showing each parallel connection was omitted...it makes the picture too cluttered to make sense. ^ditto [ Parent ]

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#21) by makenzie71 on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 12:22:04 PM MST

"...and not simply the picture..." I wish we could edit.:( ^ditto [ Parent ]

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#23) by finnsawyer on Thu Sep 14, 2006 at 07:59:36 AM MST

You can not simultaneously charge the six volt batteries in parallel and discharge them in series with any amount of diodes connected, which is what I thought you were trying to do.  You need to either sit down and analyze the circuit using the rules that I gave above or either measure all currents and voltages simultaneously to find out what is actually happening. GeoM [ Parent ]

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#11) by fungus on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 10:33:04 AM MST

Also, that schematic is wrong as you have drawn the symbol for LEDs instead of diodes. 'Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.'-Albert Einstein Fungus - www.reenergy.co.uk

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#12) by makenzie71 on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 11:59:21 AM MST

LED's are diodes.  Light Emitting Diode.  HOwever mineonly has two...I was simply too lazy to change the symbol.  MS paint is too simple a program to worry too much about stuff like that. I must have it rendered incorrectly anyway, according to maker of toys, as he says it'll only charge one battery and my system outside right now charges all of them.  dunno ^ditto [ Parent ]

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#15) by maker of toys on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 11:50:02 PM MST

mmmm. no. I was trying to say: the windmill will charge no batteries if connected according to the last drawing. the solar panels will still charge all batteries, albeit with some losses from the extra diodes.  I suspect that's what's going on in your case. someone else said (correctly) that the windmill in the system described in the first drawing will charge only one of the 6 volt batteries; the solar panels will charge the rest, leading to a unbalanced battery string/bank. -Dan It's not a case of 'Save the planet,' it's a case of 'Save the humans.' [ Parent ]

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#16) by makenzie71 on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 12:13:14 AM MST

I'm sorry about the misunderstanding, dan.  These late-night posts tend to require too much interpretation lol. How should the windmill be hooked up to assist the solar panel? ^ditto [ Parent ]

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#17) by wooferhound on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 12:31:43 AM MST

I have always heard of people using a Boost/Buck converter to double the voltage for charging your 12 volt batteries. W o o f -={(

Re: any thing wrong with this ? (3.00 / 0) (#19) by Flux on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 09:05:34 AM MST

Yes at this power level a simple boost converter will be the most practical way if you must reject the better option of making a generator that works directly. Most simple switchmode PSU chip with a transistor or mosfet can be configured as a boost converter. Flux [ Parent ]

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