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Counter Clockwise Alternator Fan
By LowTechWreck, Section Mechanical Posted on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 04:12:45 AM MST
Looking for a CCW or Omnidirectional Alternator Fan

I'm building a 5.5HP Honda/DelcoRemy battery charger. I don't want to turn the alternator and motor facing each other To make the alternator turn CW. This means the alternator fan will be turning backwards and not cooling. I have been looking and cant seem to find a CCW fan to change out the existing one with. Would any of you have a line on something? Thanks LTW

Counter Clockwise Alternator Fan | 18 comments (18 topical)

Re: Counter Clockwise Alternator Fan (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by maker of toys on Wed Sep 20, 2006 at 10:36:08 PM MST

try a british car in a junkyard. british engines often turn opposite hand to american and asian engines. MG's, triumphs, some Land Rovers (try the straight 6s as many of the V8s are based on a GM engine) and early Jaguars (after the mid 90's many models use ford drive trains)

or drive the alt off the other end of the engine. . .

It's not a case of 'Save the planet,' it's a case of 'Save the humans.'

Re: Counter Clockwise Alternator Fan (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by nanotech on Wed Sep 20, 2006 at 10:36:13 PM MST

1983 - 1987 Honda Preludes use a CCW alternator. Lester#14761, 60 amps output.

And no, I am not some automotive guru :) Found it here.... http://www.coolcatcorp.com/faqs/LucasNippondenso.html
__________________________________________
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru!

Re: Counter Clockwise Alternator Fan (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by pepa on Wed Sep 20, 2006 at 10:49:26 PM MST

hi ltw, i have a friend who has been rebuilding motors and alternators for many years to tell me that the fan is about as effective turning either way. with the back of the alternator as open as it is, the air gets moved over the coils by being pulled through the alternator insted of being blown back. i have several being driven backward by gas and diesel engines and not had any problems with over heating under load conditions while charging batteries. always watch for heat buildup when you do a setup like this, unless you have an alternator with bad bearings, it should be just fine, pepa.

Re: Counter Clockwise Alternator Fan (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by dudevato on Wed Sep 20, 2006 at 10:51:41 PM MST

I just looked at the alternator on my car to see what the fan looks like.
Here's some thoughts on the subject: What if you somehow spin it the correct way, so the fan is working as per factory design. Get a cigaratte and a soda pop straw and blow some smoke around the fan or into the back of the alternator and see just what happens when the fan spins. Now spin it the other way. Maybe instead of blowing air into the alt. you just let it 'suck through'. Keep in mind you won't be dealing with the under the hood engine heated air. Maybe make your own fan. I'd think with some sheetmetal and a compass/protractor/bottle of beer/tin snips/patience you'd have a real creation you'd be proud of. What about some ducting that will suck the Honda's cooling air from around the alterantor

Re: Counter Clockwise Alternator Fan (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by makenzie71 on Wed Sep 20, 2006 at 11:54:37 PM MST

run it backwards...won't hurt anything.
^ditto

Re: Counter Clockwise Alternator Fan (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Flux on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 12:29:21 AM MST

Every alternator fan I have seen is a centrifugal one and will draw air through the alternator in either direction.

The pressure developed by the fan in the wrong direction will be different but as fans design goes they are not too clever anyway and I doubt that you will see any difference in cooling.

If you need more cooling run the alternator faster and reduce the field current for the same output.
Flux

[ Parent ]

Re: Counter Clockwise Alternator Fan (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by hiker on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 12:56:45 AM MST

it will burn out sooner with a big load--P.M. mag had a artical on how to build one years ago[gave me the idea]..they advised to have it turn in the correct direction or the field brushes burn out early..............
WILD IN ALASKA

Re: Counter Clockwise Alternator Fan (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by dinges on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 09:13:02 AM MST

I'd be interested in reading/seeing more this project of yours, if possible. A few pictures perhaps?

I'm working on a similar project right now:

http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/album45

My 3.5HP motor can't generate more than 1HP (700W) electrically before bogging down. I may play with the gearing ratio (so far, motor:alternator is 7:9), i.e. alt spins slower than motor.

Your 5.5HP probably will do about 1000W (1.5HP, roughly).

What kind of charge regulator are/will you be using? You know that the internal one probably won't work? Anyway, in my IRC gallery is a link to the mark-8 fieldcontroller from Homepower magazine, that I've built and used. Don't recommend that one.

As you can see, I've mounted motor & alternator in such a way that it turns in the right direction. I'm not going to take any risks of it burning out, though I don't think direction of spin matters much.

BTW, this was my LAST experiment using a gas motor to drive it. From now on, only diesels...

Re: Counter Clockwise Alternator Fan (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Slingshot on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 09:33:20 AM MST

That's a good one, pretty funny. You should also note that the pig wins most of the time - he know's what he's doing :)

Peter wrote:

Arguing with an engineer is like mud-wrestling with a pig. You both get dirty but the pig enjoys it.

[ Parent ]

Re: Counter Clockwise Alternator Fan (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:01:45 AM MST

Interestingly, pigs normally are very clean animals, when allowed to be.

(However there is the mud bath they'll take in the wild, where they let the mud harden and then break it off. This removes parisites, which become embedded in it. There are advantages to having negligible body hair.)

[ Parent ]

Re: Counter Clockwise Alternator Fan (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by redeyecow on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 11:09:14 AM MST

Not sure if this relates, but the best way to load a pig is to put a basket over his head and he will back up the chute. Seems to work well with most of the pig-headed persuasion.
Keith
Barn's burnt down--now--I can see the moon.
[ Parent ]

Re: Counter Clockwise Alternator Fan (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by Countryboy on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 07:43:05 PM MST

Pigs do not take mud baths for parasite control. They get in mud because pigs don't sweat.

Pigs like mud because mud is wet. They get wet and allow the water on their skin to evaporate, cooling them down.

[ Parent ]

Re: Counter Clockwise Alternator Fan (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by Treehouse on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 07:38:35 PM MST

Why did you not use the built in regulator? I to am planing to build one and was just going to use the built in regulator.

Progress Report (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by LowTechWreck on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:36:38 PM MST

I decided to build it on a Harbor Freight Mini Utility Trailer. I caught it on sale for $139.00
It's a neat sturdy little trailer.
I thought it was so cool That I bought another one before they went off sale.

I'm In the tweaking stages now. I'm debating whether to mount the alternator under the trailer (pulley up)
and and cutting the Engine Plate in half and raising the engine side up far enough to be parallel with the
alternator pulley.

Before I do that I want to do some experimenting with the Alternator cooling.
This thing gets hot running backwards.
So I took the Fan off of the front of the Alternator because it is running backwards and blowing the heat
of the Alternator past the rectifiers instead of sucking cool air from the back and blowing the heat
out of the front.

So I got a Clothes Dryer Exhaust Duct and cut a 10 inch peice off.
Then cut a 3/4" plywood circle that fits exactly inside.
Then cut an opening for the biggest 12 volt computer fan that Radio Shack had.
I took a Green Lee Punch that I use to punch Chassis holes for 12AX7 preamp tube sockets.
That by coincidence will also accept a 1/2" ridgid electrical conduit fitting screw threads
with a wire clamp on the other end, Punched three holes
and ran the ground, B+ and Feild wire through the duct.
Then I stuffed Fiberglass insulation around the alternator so all of the air gets forced through the alternator.
It's doing the job because there is plenty of back pressure and when I turn the engine off
there is plenty of hot air coming out of the front of the alternator.
If I can add the right fan to the front it will be in excellent cooling mode.

I built the Mark 8 Controler circuit Of which does not work. I'm pretty good at that stuff.
I checked it over and over before mounting it and either I blew out the chips
with static electricity or there is a flaw in the schematic. I'll change out he IC's but I don't think it works
because all three LEDS are lit up. I can see how the power transistor is supposed to work.
It's like controlling the speed of a ceiling fan by turning the wall switch on and off at different speeds.
I don't understand how the voltage regulator is supposed to regulate anything unless it is just reading
the voltage from the battery and controlling the 555 timer to put out more amps when the voltage is low
and cut back if voltage is high. Until I can get a firm grasp on this. I am going "Neandrothol".
By that I mean I am going to either get a GM Headlight Dimmer Switch or the 25Watt/25ohm reostat mentioned
in the Mark 8 article and build a 60Amp voltage regulator using a LM317 voltage regulator chip with several
MOSFet Power Transistors as Pass transistors. Something like a IRF-Z40.
I'll use two of the LM317 Regulators to regulate the Maximum Voltage to the Vector 700 Watt Inverters.
I'm goin to learn a bunch because I just am not shure about how this thing is going to run.
Stay tuned Sports fans.
8-D

Re: Progress Report (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by twombo on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 11:50:20 AM MST

Interesting comments on the Mark 8 controller. I suspected a "kit-bashed" Mark 8 unit might have such issues. I found a good deal on an Xantrex XAR-12 controller on Ebay for $110. It and the Balmar ARS-4 are virtually identical. I figured that electronics was not my strong suit and since I want good reliabiliity I went with a commercially made approach.

Scored a Leece-Neville 140 amp alternator the other day, (FREE dammit, my favorite price!) so now I just have to get a prime mover, still looking at a 6 or 8 HP Petter(oid) diesel a local guy has (hard to find on the west coast). they seem to run well on veggie oil and dino cocktail, they are water cooled, so maybe I can get a little co-gen action for the hot tub.

Gotta figure out what is a good speed to turn the the Alternator. With an 8 hp Petter(oid). I should be able to get right at 6 hp at 1000 rpm. Ought to burn about a pint an hour or so at that speed. Flywheel is a but 15 inches in diameter. Any thoughts?

Winter is coming and I need to get the the DC genny going since my solar is real poor in midwinter (clouds and tall trees).

Great discussion here, thanks folks

Mike

[ Parent ]

Re: Progress Report (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by maker of toys on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 03:38:51 PM MST

most automotive alternators will make 12V charging current between 2k and 10k rpm. Within limits, the faster you turn the alternator, the less field current it needs, the less torque load it presents to the belt, and the better it cools. (all of these factors improve efficiency)

There is, of course, a trade-off in bearing life, and with that big 15" drive diameter, you might not get sufficient contact with a really small alternator pulley. Were I building one of these standby plants, I'd aim for about 4-5k alternator RPM, which in your case would equate to about a 3" alternator pulley. I think I'd also think strongly about a serpentine belt arrangement, complete with tensioner, just to reduce maintenence headaches.

I might also spend some time with the engine, determining how slow the governor would let it turn under load without bogging or surging . . . just to keep the fuel burn and wear down. again, though, there are trade-offs, as the engine will probably have a 'sweet spot' that it really likes to turn at, and running it there will probably bring the best long term results.

somewhere either on the otherpower section of this site or maybe on Utterpower.com is a photo-ilustrated discussion of doing exactly what we're discussing here, complete with a listeroid/petteroid (I forget which) engine.

-Dan

It's not a case of 'Save the planet,' it's a case of 'Save the humans.'
[ Parent ]

Re: Progress Report (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by twombo on Sat Sep 23, 2006 at 10:50:45 AM MST

Thanks Dan

I've been thinking about the serpentine belt too. The aIt has a 5 rib serp. pulley has a pulley just about that size it looks like (good luck kicking in there!) Seems like a 5 rib model might be just the ticket. Didn't find anything at utterpower yet (George has SOOOO much stuff to go through (whatta guy)!!! Thought about going 24 volt but That is a major conversion, so upgraded batteries will likely be two 12v strings of 420 amp Trojan L16s. That gives me nearly 3 days of stand alone reserve.

Found a good post about a 3.5 hp Mini Petter using a 70 amp alt and sent an e-mail to Ron for ideas and experiences. I think I will go a bit bigger to be able to add an AC head later as needed and to possibly run my shop using a jackshaft and flat belts.

Moving the machine and shop tools from my old house in town this weekend to my new (for me ) off grid home in the Sierra Foothills. With luck I can go pick up the Petter next week.

Wood to gather and split, hot tub to move and solar water heater panels to install, Wood shed to construct. Will I get done before winter? Who knows, fortunately winteris not real severe here. LOT's of fun.

Thanks for the advice and reply. Will keep yu posted onthe Petter Project.

Thanks

mike

[ Parent ]

Re: Progress Report (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by dinges on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 03:59:20 PM MST

Thanks for the write-up, it's interesting.

W.r.t. the mark-8 controller, I'm going Neanderthal technology as well. I'll simply switch several 12V/1A light bulbs (bulbs in parallel), with the lightbulbs in series with the field. That way I can control field current by turning on/off bulbs. Talk about high-tech... Anyway, I'm adding a voltmeter and amp-meter to monitor what's happening. Besides, I will not run this little gen unattended (as one could do with the mark-8 controller present). I think the risk is too high.

The added fan is a bit of a kludge IMO. I think I would mount it underneath the trailer.

Have you considered adding a small airtank an compressor? The compressor could be driven by the same motor. That way, you'd have mobile power and airpressure. Add place for a toolbox on the trailer, perhaps a little welding alternator too, and you've got a mobile repair station.

I don't spot a battery in the pictures but it must be there somewhere :)

Nice trailer, btw. I could think of several other things with such a cute little thing.

Do you have special intentions with this project (because you're building it on a trailer)?

[ Parent ]

Counter Clockwise Alternator Fan | 18 comments (18 topical)

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