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A lot fo questions


By makenzie71, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Thu Sep 07, 2006 at 03:59:56 AM MST
...still learning various things...

HTML Dog

That's the latest creation.  It's made using a 120dcv permanent magnet treadmill motor as a generator.  Blades are from a stop sign I bought years ago and the hub is a special design of my own that gives it about a 25* pitch.  She's mounted on a pole about 24ft high...just a test pole, she'll be on a 40ft guy'ed platform if I can get her to produce decent voltage.  Here's a video:

www.photoartclub.net/turbine/turbine.mpg

Vid was taken during 5-ish mph winds.

Her only problem is that she only spins about 200rpm...if my math is correct the fastest I've seen her spin was 233rpm, as she produced a flat 5dcv for a few moments.  She typically is producing 2~3dcv.  I'm not sure what kind of amperage or wattage...I just now found out how to test that kind of stuff.
What's a good way to increase my RPM without buying a premade blade set?  I like making these thins on my own.  Current rotating diameter is about 52" and the blades are 4" wide at the base and 3 at the tips.

Another problem she's got is that she nearly stops if I short her out...I'm not sure if that's what's supposed to happen or not.  I'm going to put a little light bulb on her tomorrow so I can test amperage propperly and see if she's supposed to completely brake under load conditions.

The label on the motor says 120dcv, 14.6 amps, 5100rpm...if that means anything.

Next...

Is it possible to run multiple wind turbines in series?  With what I've got here it seems that 4~5dcv is what I'm going to produce.  I would like to be able to put my batteries on the system and keep them charged and maintaned and run a 12dcv to 120acv converter from that bank (12 car batteries).  The current experiement is to simply run the majoraty of my shop...lights, a couple grinders, an air compressor, and a mill.  A total of 84kwh/mo.

At the moment I have six generators that I can EASILY produce 4~5 dcv a piece with.  I would like to set them up in threes to pull between 12 and 15 dcvon each, then run each bank parallel.  But I don't know if you can really run turbines in series like you can battaries.

Next...

I have two other generators that I'm clueless as to how to get them to operate to my liking.

The one I REALLY want to see working is a JX Motor Co MY1080.  This thing is rated for 36dcv at 2600rpm.  Rated current is 33amps and output is 900 watts.  If I'm not mistaken that means I could make nearly a 1kw turbine if I could just spin her 2600rpm lol.  As it stands I'm going to have belt drive her (I don't have chains and gears that will bolt up...but I got pullies and belts all over the place).  I would just hook a prop up to her just to see what I get but she's got a lot of torque when loaded.  If I'm going to belt drive her, though, I'm going to be a bit more optimistic than 12dcv.  The frame I'm building right now has the prop at the opposite end fo a shaft as an 11" pully.  A bracket will hold this motor directly above that shaft and the motor will be fitted with a 1" pully.  A 10ft prop I built run pretty well at 150rpm...if my math is correct that would put me at 25.2dcv without a load.

The other motor is similar to the above, but it's a 120dcv motor rated to spin 13,000rpm.

Any suggestions for either of these generators would be excellent.

I have a LOT of other questions but I'm settling for this as of right now...I'll address my other concerns later.  Thanks guys!

A lot fo questions | 13 comments (13 topical)

Re: A lot fo questions (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by ghurd on Wed Sep 06, 2006 at 11:17:59 PM MST

Looks cool!

But...
The 'rule of thumb' is RPMs per volt, so that motor was not a good choice.
"label on the motor says" it needs about 600 RPMs to hit charging voltage for a 12V system.
And I never had good results with that rule of thumb, always needing more RPMs.
Given your numbers it needs the rule of thumb, and my 'more than that', it needs 'over' 17% more RPMs than 600, or 705RPMs before it will make a milliamp into a 12V system.

The blades look and sound very slow. More like drag blades.
Make some wood blades a little shorter than those. Even a first decent try should do much better.

Forgoing the loss and other issues with gearing...
"The one I REALLY want to see working" needs 1100RPMs or more.

"The other motor is similar to the above, but it's a 120dcv motor rated to spin 13,000rpm."
Not good.  13,000/120=108. That X 15V = 1625 RPMs before any chance of filling a battery, and that is before my 'more than that' fudge factor.
Don't do it.

Series windmills, IMHO, is not good at all.
Resistance kills the output watts.
It might be best to start with an Ametek TDM or GE ECM, make some better blades, and go from there.
G-
Ghurd.info



Re: A lot fo questions (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by nothing to lose on Thu Sep 07, 2006 at 12:14:21 AM MST

Just a quick I agree with Ghurd post here from me for now.

Never give up, never surrender!

But perhaps at times we must fall back and re-group.

 I started to mention a few things, but it sounded to negative when I read back over it so I deleted it. Basically, rpms for motors too high, blades not working fast enough.
Probably looking at large ratio to belt drive them fast enough and slipping belts a large problem perhaps.

"and the motor will be fitted with a 1" pully."

????? I just plain don't think that 1" pully will work at all, I could be wrong but that's my thought!!! It may be fine free spinning with no load, but will slip "like a wet seal on ice" under load.
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.



Re: A lot fo questions (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by makenzie71 on Thu Sep 07, 2006 at 12:48:41 AM MST

Thanks guys!

Yeah the blades are crappy.  What I did was a combination of having nothing better handy to use and wanting to try out my new plasma cutter.  A friend of mine was at my house earlier and told me it was reading 6.1dcv...for flat rough cut blades they sure do boogy.  If I'm not mistaken that's right around 285rpm.  They're somewhat flimsy, though, and one blade's about 22 grams heavier than the others, and I knew that going into it so I wasn't really expecting much.  I was suprised with what I got, though.

Tomorrow I'm going to the lumber yard to pick up some 2X6 stuff to make an 8ft prop (I'll go into it in a minute) and I'll probably just get a 8ft 1X6 to carve up a new set of blades.  I just hate carving, though...but it'll give me an excuse to make a good draw-knife...score!  I'm going to try a 5ft prop on it and if she doesn't graze the 400rpm mark then I'll shave it down some.

As for the 36v motor...it's a badass motor...I've at least got to try.  I built a chassis for it...a piece of 3/8" thick 3X4 angle iron with a blower fan axle.  The prop and pully will mount on one end, and a cradle is above it for the motor to be strapped to.  I'm using a 2" pully on the motor, though, because it's got a flywheel.  Of course the effort may be misguided, but I like the idea of a little more rotating mass in our inviroment.  I've also build the chassis to mount on bare 2 3/8 tubing like the little one pictured above, but there's no bearing.  I've greased it up pretty good but I don't want something that'll flop around like the other's I've made.  At any rate, with an 11/2 setup I'll only need to turn 475rpm to have an interesting output.

What about a 480dcv motor rated at 1150rpm?  Weighs about 400lbs so I have no idea where I'd put it but I can get one.  I think the label actually says 12,000 watts...hard to say, it's in chinese. :D

Keep in mind that this is just experimentation...lol.  If I wanted to do something successful, perfect, and pretty I'd just build the 20 footer on otherpower :D
^ditto



Re: A lot fo questions (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by ghurd on Thu Sep 07, 2006 at 01:06:22 AM MST

Hey, its not a secret. I made worse, proportionally speaking. Most guys did.
I believe we are just attempting to keep you from burning out early!

The chinese motor sounds... better... I guess... but it could be going to the other extreme.  And kind of big. :)
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]



Re: A lot fo questions (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by coldspot on Thu Sep 07, 2006 at 02:41:40 AM MST

makenzie71-
All looks cool enough but,
as you've seen, (and told)
High RPM motors need the same High RPM's.
ghurd
&
ntl
Are bolth great people and have helped guide
me along my merry old way here.
LOL
;)
belts slip a lot
chains are much better
direct drive is the way to go

We all started out like you once I think,
Last summer-
I bought a $4.00 treadmill,(just for the DC motor)
I couldn't get it into my truck bed, (under the shell), and had to take it apart in the parking lot. LOL!! (120 VDC 5900 RPM or around there if memory still working, lol)
Still doing nothing with it.
But that same day I was headed back to work and stopped an older electronics store to get a few things and what did I see sitting there----
TDM, (Tape Drive Motor)
Or
better known as
Ametek.
The owner sold it to me for $20.00 and I had seen the stock tape hub sitting there with it so I added it to the motor as I bought it. :)
This hub was just perfect for mounting ceiling fan blade mounts to and it still flies out back, (2nd set of blades, 1st set broken off in 50MPH with gusts to 70+ last winter,LOL)
Welcome and have windy type fun!



Re: A lot fo questions (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by henjulfox on Thu Sep 07, 2006 at 06:16:28 AM MST

Makenzie,
Do the blades have a twist in them? 25 Degrees is around correct for the base, but out at the tip they should only be a couple of degrees of pitch. If they are at 25 at the tip you'll get a lot of torque but very low RPM like you're seeing.

If you can't twist them to lower the pitch at the tip, I believe tappering down to an inch or so wide at the tip will help.

Also, make sure they are balanced before showing them the wind. I once flew some unbalanced blades just to see how they would do. Scared the hell out of me when the vibration started.

Good luck.

-Henry



Re: A lot fo questions (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by JW on Thu Sep 07, 2006 at 07:09:38 PM MST

   One thing ive heard echo on this board is that 'use caution' when using aluminum sheet metal blades. although I think this is a neat 'temporary' experiment(presuming the material has legal origin).

 the rough cut that seems to have been made, along the edges of the blade strips, gives me concern, in that, accelerated fatigue could set in, and unbalenced radial forces could cause sheer in a relatively short period of time(at the bolts) with any type of continious operation. Wood surely is more durable.

 The other end of the spectrim states, that one should not mess with road signs. Ive heard so many bad storys about old country roads and accidents that occured at night time.

JW



Re: A lot fo questions (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by makenzie71 on Thu Sep 07, 2006 at 08:27:04 PM MST

Thanks for the comments, guys!

Just to assure everyone, the sign was acquired legally...well sort of legally.  I jumped a colvert one night and took out this stop sign...mangled the pole but the sign was in perfect condition.  Being the good semaritan I am I notified the county and was promptly fined $354 for the sign...so I paid and took the sign I bought from them with me.

With these blades I can twist them, but it won't be even, which would cause an imbalance once moving.  I've built a set of wooden blades, though, and I'm not sure how to twist them.  I'll worry about a twist, though, after I start casting blades when I get into larger projects...it'll be simple to be consistant if all the blades come from a single mold.

I finished up a wooden set of blades and will mount them later tonight after I'm confiedent they've got enough oil on them to survive the weekend (rain in the forecast).  I somewhat screwed them up, though.  I made the assumption that all of my hubs were the same...turns out that I happened to make a clockwise hub a while back and turns out that happened to be the very hub I randomly pulled from my collection.  Not thinking about it I simply took note of the rotation and carved my wooden blades to spin clockwise.  All the rest of my hubs are counterclockwise, though.  So I've got to pull this one down and find a way to mate my nice and pretty blades to that goofy hub.
^ditto



Re: A lot fo questions (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by makenzie71 on Fri Sep 08, 2006 at 12:47:58 AM MST

Do you guys know where I can find a voltage booster?

While running 4.5~5v this thing was blowing small 12v auto light bulbs...should that be happening?  a couple of 75 and 100 watt bulbs lit up but something about the color and heat makes me think they wouldn't have lasted long.
^ditto



Re: A lot fo questions (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by jimjjnn on Fri Sep 08, 2006 at 08:07:51 AM MST

Blowing 12V bulbs at 4-5V? Sounds like your meter isnt reading correctly.
Shouldn't be taking out 12v bulbs at that low voltage.
Something wrong here
Denver,CO
[ Parent ]


Re: A lot fo questions (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by TAH on Sat Sep 09, 2006 at 06:23:26 PM MST

Boston Mountain sells voltage boosters. I have a 1500 watt and a 3000. They start boosting the voltage at 7 VDC and you can adjust the output from 12 to 48 VDC.

[ Parent ]


Re: A lot fo questions (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by makenzie71 on Fri Sep 08, 2006 at 07:39:46 PM MST

not sure what was up..now I'm plugging wedge bulbs up and it barely lights them...uts off enough voltage during low winds to keep an LED lit.
^ditto


Re: A lot fo questions (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by JW on Sat Sep 09, 2006 at 04:56:29 PM MST

DUDE,

 You probably got some 1156(or whatever) bulbs that run on 6 volts and look like the 12 volt bulbs.

everythings cool :) :)

JW

[ Parent ]



A lot fo questions | 13 comments (13 topical)
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