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Tape Motor Help


By valterra, Section Mechanical
Posted on Fri Jan 12, 2007 at 06:16:37 PM MST
Need help with which motor is best

Hopefully I'm not asking for competition here :-)  But when I searched for "Ametek" on eBay, I got the following:

Ametek 50V DC Motor

Ametek 50V DC Motor 2

Ametek 20V DC Motor

I tried researching the part numbers, but can't get any information about RPM, etc.  Can you go based upon Voltage alone?  I blew up my MiniGen, so I want something to put my 2.5' props on.  12V application is what I'm looking for (battery charging).

Are there other brands I should be looking for?  These motors seem pretty inexpensive from what I've seen on this board.

Thanks for the help.  The wind's blowing pretty solid the last few days, and I'm mad that it's all "for nothing!"   :-)
Tape Motor Help | 26 comments (26 topical)

Another 3 (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by valterra on Fri Jan 12, 2007 at 11:28:33 AM MST

Here are another few I found.  Any thoughts on these?  Thanks again.

Treadmill Motor 130V @ 6750 RPM

Says it can produce 1500W (at what speed?)

108VDC for wind turbines, says the lister

Hathaway 40VDC

If any of these would work for (smallish) scale wind gennies, let me know.  For the record, I have my minigen spinning so fast that I was afraid to get near the blades.  But I'd also like to harness some low winds, too.  Blades are 2.5' and will be possibly making some 5'.

Some of these auctions end soon.  If you're bidding against me, let me know, so I don't waste my time or your money.  lol.  But seriously, I will trust your guys' judgement, if you say "XX would be a good one"  Of course, YOU don't know if it's a defect or not, or if the seller is any good.  That's up to me.  

THANKS!



Re: Another 3 (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by ghurd on Fri Jan 12, 2007 at 12:02:33 PM MST

I'll have a crack at it...
The treadmill motor has too high RPMs.
The 1500W seems kind of high on speed, and a bit high priced?
The 108V is kind of small, but will work.
The Hathaway doesn't give any speed numbers or anything, but it's what I'd try from this list.
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]


Re: Another 3 (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by valterra on Fri Jan 12, 2007 at 12:09:18 PM MST

Found another Hathaway - says it's .33 amps at 40VDC.  That seems way underpowered.

[ Parent ]


Re: Another 3 (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by asheets on Fri Jan 12, 2007 at 01:40:07 PM MST

The treadmill motor would need 650rpm to get 12 volts -- forget it.

The Image motor has the right rpm/voltage ratio, but I doubt it will do 1.5kw in normal winds.  The price is WAY too high, IMHO.

You'll want to ask about the RPMS at rated votage on that Redmond and Hathaway.
_____________________________

Alan Sheets
[ Parent ]



Re: Tape Motor Help (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by kurt on Fri Jan 12, 2007 at 11:52:14 AM MST

look her match up the amatek you are looking at by volts case size and shaft size. http://www.tlgwindpower.com/ametek.htm


IRC inst.
just a personal rant carry on.


Re: Tape Motor Help (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by asheets on Fri Jan 12, 2007 at 01:34:42 PM MST

The 7" Ametek 50VDC units are all right, but need 400+ RPM to make 12volts (my personal target is 250).  The 20VDC Ametek needs 500rpm.  These are all right for beginners, but I'd try to find an Ametek 30VDC from Silicon Salvage (the eBay lots of these all the time -- prices are pretty good, but their shipping is rather high).  Or, I can sell you one.  From SS, I never bid over $20 for an Ametek under 60VDC.
_____________________________

Alan Sheets



Re: Tape Motor Help (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by valterra on Fri Jan 12, 2007 at 04:54:11 PM MST

You said that the 1kW model has the right ratio but is to pricey.

Would this motor be harder to turn?  I'm just thinking - correct me if I'm wrong - that this motor won't burn out if I somehow get it spinning too fast.

or can the 30 volt ones be "overdriven" without burning out?

Alan, I sent you an email.



Re: Tape Motor Help (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by luckeydog on Fri Jan 12, 2007 at 05:39:40 PM MST

my personal experience with many of the ametek has been good but not great. i would suggest using the 50 VDC motor the 40's 30's 20's are near worthless. my ametek 50 will produce up to 12 amps not too bad considering what i payed for it.
 But not all ametek 50's are equal though I have two of them that will not get up to 12 amps they do at best 8 amps. if you can get your hands on a ametek 99 then you have a real good pmm to work with.
If you are just getting into wind gens then i think they are a great way to get into it. they are really more of a hobby wind generator.
wind gens are much funner to watch than solar panels. Broomfield,Colorado


Re: Tape Motor Help (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by valterra on Fri Jan 12, 2007 at 05:43:43 PM MST

when you say they're hobby motors at best, do you mean Ametek's or DC motors in general?

[ Parent ]


Re: Tape Motor Help (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by luckeydog on Fri Jan 12, 2007 at 05:48:08 PM MST

Yes as in the sense that you will not be able to produce enough real power to power your home with it.
wind gens are much funner to watch than solar panels. Broomfield,Colorado
[ Parent ]


Re: Tape Motor Help (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by luckeydog on Fri Jan 12, 2007 at 05:49:44 PM MST

Sorry i didnt answer the question . ametek motors is what i was referring to.
wind gens are much funner to watch than solar panels. Broomfield,Colorado
[ Parent ]


Re: Tape Motor Help (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by FishbonzWV on Fri Jan 12, 2007 at 06:01:18 PM MST

I built these mills with the Hathaways.


This set of blades did the best job but they took a lot of wind. Probably 20 mph to get 9 amps. They were 38" blades.



Bonz



Re: Tape Motor Help (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by valterra on Sat Jan 13, 2007 at 07:28:41 AM MST

Here's one that says 230VDC @ 230RPM!   Castex  Motor

I see that eBay has them sorted by Horsepower (HP).  I'm assuming that the higher the hp, the larger amount of force required to turn them?

Any of you who've used these motors for gennies, please help me out with what to look for.  So far, I know to try to find the lowest RPM for the Highest voltage.  Well, this 230 / 230 one seems to have the best ration I've seen, but I'm suspicious that it'd be hard to turn (high HP).

I had a minigen which I unfortunately destroyed.  And I'd like to mount the 2.5' blades to something else.  I know I'm not going to power my house with it.  I have some LED night lights (12v approx .36w each) that I want to run from a 12v battery, which is being recharged by wind and solar.  So not a high-power operation.  Any leftover wattage will be used for other stuff.  I'm completely "on-grid," so I have plenty of stuff that can be switched over to RE power.

I plan to build a real dual-rotor PMA as described on otherpower.com.  But I figured these motors would be a quick way to get SOMETHING going up there.  I don't have a tower, etc., for the machine I want to eventually build yet.  Hence, I'm looking at these motors.



Re: Tape Motor Help (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by ghurd on Sat Jan 13, 2007 at 07:43:46 AM MST

Thats a gear head motor. Not good.
(ain't this fun?)
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]


Re: Tape Motor Help (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by valterra on Sat Jan 13, 2007 at 07:50:47 AM MST

yep!  :-)  Man, and I just wish there were ready-made PMAs out there.  The Dans have got to build a giant factory up there in the mountains, and mass-produce their PMAs.  :-D

Everything I've taken apart had an AC motor in them.  Even the old reel-to-reel tape machine (tape motor?).  So I've been S.O.L. on this search.

[ Parent ]



Re: Tape Motor Help (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by ghurd on Sat Jan 13, 2007 at 07:58:25 AM MST

You could look for a GE ECM from a high end furnace.  IIRC, Carrier and Trane?
Emerson makes one too, with different letters. EPM?
(I got a pile of them for 2 dozen donuts!)
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]


Re: Tape Motor Help (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by valterra on Sat Jan 13, 2007 at 08:10:36 AM MST

Do you still have any of them from that pile?

Since these are brushless, do they need to be modified?

[ Parent ]



Re: Tape Motor Help (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by Jerry on Sat Jan 13, 2007 at 09:23:26 AM MST

Hi Gurd.

I see 30 watts from my ECM at 10 MPH and its doing 380 watts by 30 MPH. This is with 4 ft blade tip to tip.

A freindhas an Emerson EPM. I'll be trying that one to. Stock the ECM work good at 24 volts.

12 volt works good by just unhooking the star piont and Jerry rigging it. Prety easy.

You can use a 6 wire cable from your RV store. I think its 14 gage X 6. It looks like a black extension cord. This works great, just put the doides at the base of the tower or in the battery shed.

The Emerson looks more like a conventional 3 phase motor inside and the ECM looks like a F&P wrong side out.

All the ECMs I've found in the dumpster had bad brains. The rest of the actul motor was fine. I did find 1 where the shaft was slipping in the armature. I took the old shaft out of the rubber bushing. Took the rubber bushings out. Then I machined an old armature down from a 2 pole motor and refitted into the steel toob the ECM magnets are glude to. In the end I ended up with a 5/8" shaft rather then the stock 1/2" and better bearings.

It seem to reduce cogging abit. Anyway that unit is flying and making very good power for a 4 footer.

ECM are great. Much better then Ametek and no brushes, more power and many times free. Whoops sorry, there goes all the ECMs. We're letting the cat  outa the bag.LOL

                          JK TAS Jerry

Airheads Page


[ Parent ]



Re: Tape Motor Help (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by ghurd on Sat Jan 13, 2007 at 09:58:10 AM MST

My luck with "junk" ECMs is not so good. They may have gone to changing brains, because GE now offers the brain kit.

Maybe 9 total?  2 turn VERY stiff, another has grinding bearings, 2 have that un-good smell, one seems to have a magnet free of the rotor.
That still leaves a few good ones, and maybe enough parts to make a couple more but there are a lot of HP versions in the pile.  I haven't had time to take them all appart to truely see what is what.

I think the ratio idea is a good guess, but cheap meters may not read it right.
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]



Re: Tape Motor Help (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by valterra on Sat Jan 13, 2007 at 08:03:22 AM MST

These Guys are selling pre-made PMAs, but some of the pictures I've seen look similar to the motor conversions (e.g. Magnets mounted onto a center core that is rotated inside coils)

They say their 120V model reaches 12V at 96RPM.  But I guess that's not saying much, since my minigen would spike at 60-70 volts with a quick hand turn.  Very low amperage though.  And Cogging is an issue.

Anyhoo.  Man.  This is turning out to be tougher than I thought.

Besides the RPM to Voltage ratio, anything else?  And is the ratio usually linear?  For example, is 100Volts at 600RPM the same as 50Volts at 300RPM?

[ Parent ]



Re: Tape Motor Help (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by ghurd on Sat Jan 13, 2007 at 09:07:45 PM MST

They are "hydrogenappliances".  Their PMA is a reworked car alternator. Might want to search that name on this board for what people think.
They are not very highly thought of in some circles.

Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]


Re: Tape Motor Help (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by valterra on Sun Jan 14, 2007 at 07:03:32 PM MST

Yeah, I've read those things too.

[ Parent ]


Brushless Servo Motors? (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by valterra on Mon Jan 15, 2007 at 10:39:58 AM MST

On otherpower, they say that brushless DC Motors are basically Permanent Magnet Alternators.  So, can I just take a Brushless DC Motor and use it?  

The reason I'm asking is because I know brushless motors have controllers (or "brains") and I didn't know if those components were still relevent for our purposes.

I searched eBay for "Brushless DC PM Servo Motor" and was able to find some for a pretty good price.  But I'm still not sure what I'm looking at beyond trying to find the highest voltage for the lowest RPM.  Any other tips, guys?  I don't know how to weld, or else I'd build one of the Dans' Volvo Brake Hub alternators as my first project.  :-P



Re: Brushless Servo Motors? (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by jimjjnn on Mon Jan 15, 2007 at 10:57:48 AM MST

Sounds like you need to do some dumpster "Diving" behind appliance repair shops. It may help to ask first and maybe they will even set aside "Goodies" for you if you bring them Donuts every once in awhile
Denver,CO
[ Parent ]


Re: Brushless Servo Motors? (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by ghurd on Mon Jan 15, 2007 at 11:04:50 AM MST

We take out the brains anyway.
The ECMs are the same thing, but bigger.

For something small, newer Cadillacs uses a brushless heater blower motor, and its common for them to blow the brains too.  A repair manual says they will pull over 20A with blown brains.
If you know someone at the dealer, it may be worth a try to get a blown up one.  New ones are a few hundred dollars.
Alas, I don't know anyone at the dealership, so it's still just a theory.
All I know...
http://www.fieldlines.com/comments/2006/8/4/20123/75139/6#6

Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]



Re: Brushless Servo Motors? (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by valterra on Mon Jan 15, 2007 at 11:15:03 AM MST

Here's one, for example.

As far as dumpster diving, I'm all for that, but I'm not realy sure what kinds of appliance stuff I'm looking for.

I have several DC Motors that I've rescued from CD-ROM drives.  The drive that opens and closes the tray is very powerful (14V and over 230mA) for its size, but is geared up substantially with plastic gears.  If I could get it to spin (would require very large blades or high winds I think), I'd be afraid of ripping up the whole assembly in the wind because it IS plastic.  If I removed the gearing, I don't think I'd spin it fast enough.

Other appliance rescues have given me geared motors (from microwaves) and plenty of AC Induction motors (from fans inside appliances).  As well as an old Furnace motor that I'm SURE is AC just because of the number of wires coming out of it (and I don't see any magnets).

[ Parent ]



Tape Motor Help | 26 comments (26 topical)
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Related Links
· Ametek 50V DC Motor
· Ametek 50V DC Motor 2
· Ametek 20V DC Motor
· Also by valterra

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