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Using my creek for household water
By scesnick, Section Water Posted on Sun Jan 14, 2007 at 03:56:52 PM MST
Using my creek for household water

hello,
I built a home on my family farm 5 years ago and since our farm is quite remote, I obviously had to dig a well. The well water is not the greatest water. it is VERY high in iron. We went through all the usual water filters, whole house filters, etc... It still isn't taht good of water.
I also have a very nice creek near my house and the creek originates on my property. This creek was used for years as a water source of the towns resevior that is about 3 miles down the mountain. This water is way better water than I can get from my well. The town no longer uses this resevior and are now connected to the city water system.
I would like to build a small dam and use this water as my primary water source for my home. ( and my micro hydro system I am planning ) The problem is, I can not seem to find any information on how to do this. i.e. what kind of lines , pumps, how to construct the dam, just general info. If anyone has any advice, I am all ears.... Thanks...

Using my creek for household water | 29 comments (29 topical)

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by fungus on Sun Jan 14, 2007 at 09:20:14 AM MST

It would be good to provide us with more information ie:
How fast does the water move?
How much water goes through the creek?
How much does the level change with the seasons etc..
Dams depending on the height needed can be made with a variety of materials, mainly concrete I would advise although dams are not necessarily needed.

'Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.'-Albert Einstein
Fungus - www.reenergy.co.uk

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by scesnick on Sun Jan 14, 2007 at 09:50:44 AM MST

Sorry, I guess that would be good info to have. I have measured up to 380+GPM in the winter and down to about 130gpm in the summer. It moves fairly quickly. Haven't really measured the speed of the flow however..

[ Parent ]

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Nando on Sun Jan 14, 2007 at 10:27:59 AM MST

What is your name ?
Where is the farm located ?.

You have given just a bit of information about your water source.

You have the volume, now, since you as well need or want the water for electricity generation, the head of the water source within your property is needed to define the best procedure for water usage and power generation.
Water source, distance from the farm house, direction of the water movement, slope or head of the flowing water, then the distances at different point of the site where the turbine can be installed, NOT necessarily the best for you BUT the best for power generation
280 gpm = 24 liter/sec down to 8 liter/sec

For 8 l/s and for every meter of head ( 3.28 feet) you may obtain

Watts : 8 * 6 = 48 watts minimum to 144 watts at high winter volume

Knowing the head, you will know the pressure available for farm usage, and knowing the data requested we can suggest a good process to capture water and energy.

Supply data, the most important step to harvest the best from your water source

"fairly quickly" is not data is a concept, measure how the water moves, if you do not know how, then ask and possibly post some photos.

Nando

[ Parent ]

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Nando on Sun Jan 14, 2007 at 04:17:39 PM MST

Since you added the head (52 feet = 16 meter) the power is now

The power is 48* 16 = 768 to 144* 16 = 2300 watts.

768 watts is 18.43 KW/H daily to 55.2 KW/H for the high seasons

Good source for You, you can reduce the GRID power to about nil, unless you use high power equipment.

Then it would be easy for you to add a small pump to bring the water to the house as needed.

How many gallons do you need daily ?.

Nando

[ Parent ]

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by elvin1949 on Sun Jan 14, 2007 at 10:36:15 AM MST

scesnick
First thing what part of the world are you in.
Second, creek originates on your land,GOOD.
third, you mentioned a mountian,ALSO GOOD.
Now does the SPRING ie creek come out of the
ground uphill from the house[if so good].
Next what is the elevation difference from the spring to the lower property line.
With this info you can get good advise.
later
elvin
ps--wish i had a large spring like you do.

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by scesnick on Sun Jan 14, 2007 at 11:52:08 AM MST

I already posted questions about my micro hydro aspirations in the hydro section. But here are the measurements anyway 52 ft or head on a 600 ft penstock run.

I have 150 gpm of flow where the penstock would start, upstream of course but at the very upper edge of my property line. I have 52 ft of head and could get more but that will start to run my turbine away from my house. The farther away from the beginning of the penstock, the more flow I get. If, for any reason, my stream would dry up, I could always go back to using my well.

I live in Western Md. and I do own the water rights to this stream ( atleast the part that runs through my property.) It does originate on my property. The creek runs acrossed my property and splits my 76 acres pretty much into two sections , right down the middle. My house is about 300 ft from the creeks nearest point. But the house is about 50ft. higher than the creek itself.

I'm not so much asking for micro hydro advice, although I will gladly accept any advice on it, I was mostly posting about how to use this good creek water for everyday use for my house. How to get it to my house and the best way to do that.

[ Parent ]

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Countryboy on Sun Jan 14, 2007 at 01:01:12 PM MST

The biggest problem you will face if you use creek water is keeping it from becoming contaminated.

I would encourage you to dig out where the spring flows out of the ground. Make it pool up, and have a pump and line from that pool to your house. Pile dirt around the spring to prevent surface runoff from entering the springwater you will be drinking.

Make sure no livestock can get to the spring or else their urine and manure will contaminate the water.

You mention that your house is higher than the spring. Depending on how close the spring is to you, you may not be able to drink the water. If your septic tank leaches into the springwater, it is undrinkable.

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by scesnick on Sun Jan 14, 2007 at 01:08:53 PM MST

Thanks for the advice cowboy,

This creek originates in the woods and I don't have any livestock ( other than one horse) My septic field drains the opposite way of the creek. I don't really see a problem with contamination. Unless it is an organism already prsent in the water when it surfaces. I call my property a farm but all we really do is hunt on it and bail some hay for the horse. I have gone searches on the subject and can not find any info on how to construct a small dam for this purpose.

[ Parent ]

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by hiker on Sun Jan 14, 2007 at 03:46:06 PM MST

http://www.otherpower.com/scotthydro1.html
WILD IN ALASKA
[ Parent ]

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Nando on Sun Jan 14, 2007 at 04:27:24 PM MST

The dam by principle is not difficult if the size is small.
To properly give suggestions a good set of photographs properly indicated are needed and possible one or two more trips to get additional photos to clarify what you have to give you the needed info to implement the dam with all your needs like for cleaning or protection, pipe intake, pipe size, etc.

The site indicated, showing the rudimentary Banki turbine is not recommended at all, the inefficiency is bad and the implementation poor.

For the head you have, you need a Turgo and a brushless generator.which could be an induction motor as generator, producing 120 Vac directly with a small ELC (Electronic Level Controller).

Nando

[ Parent ]

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Volvo farmer on Sun Jan 14, 2007 at 04:13:41 PM MST

I was checking into possibly drinking water caught off my roof. I happened to find a thing online called a UV sterilizer that a person puts in his water line, plugs it in and it kills any critters living in the water as the water passes through it. Might be a little power hungry if you're off-grid though.

I'd think for a dam, find a reasonably flat spot and dig a hole in the creek bed with a backhoe. Stack up the material you dig downstream of the hole until you have a little pond.

Volvo Farmer

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by scesnick on Sun Jan 14, 2007 at 04:43:07 PM MST

Volvo Farmer,

I was going to run this new water supply through the same pipes I have in my house now and simply run it through my whole house filering system I already have.
I own a backhoe so your suggestion is a good one. I just have to get the backhoe down to the creek. it is in some pretty rugged terrain.
After researching this more I think the main components I would need are the pipe of course, and a pump that has sufficient lift to get it to my house and then wire the pump the same way my well pump is wired now. That way when the pressure tank calls for water it will turn on my creek pump in the same manner as my well pump does now.

[ Parent ]

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by elvin1949 on Sun Jan 14, 2007 at 05:34:32 PM MST

Don't take water from the creek to drink
unless you have to.Go back to where it run's out
of the ground and install a SPRINGBOX.
Pipe your drinking water from there.
It can never get contaminated if you put a cover
over the springbox.
later
elvin

[ Parent ]

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by wdyasq on Sun Jan 14, 2007 at 06:43:56 PM MST

You might want to consider a 'ram-pump'.

Ron
Adventure is just bad planning." -- Roald Amundsen
[ Parent ]

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by Gordy on Sun Jan 14, 2007 at 11:13:28 PM MST

scesnick,

I bought several books and did a bunch of net seach's for pond building. Many differant optoins and styles were given. One was digging out and damming a creek. Hopefully you have a clay type soil to build the dam out of, or enough to line it with. To make it water proof, otherwise there are other options like rubber membrain, ect $$$

You'll want a spill way, over the top and down the back of the dam for over flow conditions. This can be large pipe or colvert, or just leave a ditch up the back and top 2' to 3' deep and 4' to 6' wide. Line this heavy plastic or rubber and cover with feild stone.

You'll have to do more reserch of coarse to find out the hieght to base width ratio (slope's)for your soil type and how many gallon you plan on holding back. NOT to mention the hassle's of dealing with the county planing and zoning office, EPA, DNR, ect.

Gordy

[ Parent ]

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by hobot on Sun Jan 14, 2007 at 08:11:12 PM MST

As mentioned water exposed at the surface is likely contaminated
by diseases parasites, heavy metals, pestisies fertilizers and maybe
sewage medications as well.
If is was used once for drinking then likely failry easy to clean it
up for consumption in home.
If can tap at source via spring box then pipe drain it to a cistern then can
be pumped to normal pressure tank system in home thru an off the shelf
home size screw in replacement filter element. this is how we get h2O.

First thing is have water tested, free I think if sate or county does this
but they don't test for all that much for free, mostly just bateria and
ph and mineral level or gases, like you find in your well water.
More extensive tests can be found by the nutritonal labs DC DDS and MD's
use that look for parasites, toxins and dysbiosis in patent stool/urine/salvia.
This cost me ~150 dollars from Smokey Mountian Labs in North Carolina.
University or hospital labs may be able to do an extensive profile or
direct you to who might, as well as water system installers and online search.

For drinking/kitchen likey only need the standard 3-5 stage filers with
tanks some have the UV light option that make my wife happy but our spring
only has some frog and cave fish poop bateria in it so potable to start with.
Ozone bubbler in cistern would also detox many chemicals and pathogens
and likely coagualate to filertable particles.

Constructing for flood/freeze states must be allowed for too.

hobot

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by asheets on Mon Jan 15, 2007 at 11:27:37 AM MST

I think the 1st question is, if you are going to be using the water for household purposes, is: Do you have rights to use the water? If the city is using it, chances are they own the water shares...
_____________________________

Alan Sheets

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by scesnick on Mon Jan 15, 2007 at 04:30:40 PM MST

I actually own the water rights from years ago when my grandfather went to court about this exact same thing. So, no problems there. I was going to pump this water into my whole house filtration system that I already have set up for my well. I will research ram pumps and see if they have the lift capable of handling this job. I think I will also be looking into a " Spring Box" I never heard of them before and they sound like the thing I need.

[ Parent ]

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by TomW on Mon Jan 15, 2007 at 04:43:45 PM MST

scesnick

While I would not advise doing the spring to house plumbing thing on several levels, I will note that a properly setup spring box makes an excellent, no cost to operate beer cooler. Decades ago I had a farm that used the spring box as a gravity fed source for plumbing. Bottom line was it was ok to drink most of the time but one spring everyone in the house got deathly ill and we tracked it back to the spring box. A small, unidentifiable [by then] rodent had apparently chose to suicide in the water even tho it was pretty well sealed up. Here there is some "cyst" or something that deer or other grazing animals can pollute groundwater with. Not exactly sure of the details but it is not easy to get rid of if it infests your bowels.

Just My angle on it.

Water for showers n stuff likely be fine.

Cheers.

TomW

The Truth is the Truth, even if no one believes it; and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it

[ Parent ]

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by remember on Tue Jan 16, 2007 at 05:43:16 PM MST

I consult on/construct rural home water sytems here in Utah so I've seen a lot of similar situations. I Agree with most of what has been said. Spring boxes are good things but not foolproof as regards contamination. You have enough flow to pump directly out of your spring box with a submersible or a jet pump. I would go with a submersible in the spring box and trench the pressurized water below frost depth to the house or to the well water line to house, whichever is closer. Watch your wire runs for length if your pump is very big at all. Do get the water tested and if you are going to drink it, use a U.V. sterilizer inline after your pressure tank and after any treatment equipment you are using, last thing before the water enters the house piping. Size the U.V. to your max. flow and then some, clean the quartz sleeve and change the bulb once a year.
Just another random thought. If the spring is that good, consider drilling a well just "upstream" of it in the same area, and set it up like any well with a submersible pump. Gives you better protection and may be just as easy as anything in the long run.

[ Parent ]

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by scesnick on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 05:59:16 AM MST

Sweet water wells,

Thanks for the suggestions. That is the stuff I was looking for. I have sunk so much money into trying to get good water that I don't think I want to sink another $5,000 into a whole new well. I did plan on running it through my filter system and a UV system.
One other question I have however is this, The spot where i would like to take the water from is about 800ft. from my house and obviously getting the electric line to the pump would be costly. Is there a pump that could be put inside my basement that would pull the water from the creek instead of pushing the water up from my creek?

Another well question for ya, I was told that if I run my water continually ( from my garden hose) for an extended period of time, it just might clean up my water. Is this a possibility? I worry about running my well dry, even though i do have a fairly good GPM flow. I can't recall what the GPM is but when i checked it last year for my filter system the guy I was talking to about my system said it was a good GPM flow.

[ Parent ]

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by remember on Wed Jan 17, 2007 at 04:48:09 PM MST

I'm glad it was helpful. The vertical lift from your source plus the static pressure of your pressure tank plus your piping flow losses to the house create your "total dynamic head". This combined with your flow requirements determines your pump size, which determines your wire size. So lets start at the top. vertical lift to pressure tank? Pressure switch settings (cut in cut out)? Flow requirement? From there I can give you some ideas.

[ Parent ]

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by scesnick on Sat Jan 20, 2007 at 10:57:07 AM MST

Oh, goodness, where to start? I have not measured to verical lift but If I had to guess I would say that the house is 50ft higher than the creek. My pressure tank cutoff switch is set at a basic setting. I did not install it but I will check it here shortly. What do you mean by flow requirement?

[ Parent ]

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by remember on Sat Jan 20, 2007 at 07:05:01 PM MST

How many GPM do you want to deliver to the house?

[ Parent ]

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by scesnick on Sun Jan 21, 2007 at 06:14:11 AM MST

Not sure, Just the average amount that any other house has.

[ Parent ]

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by remember on Sun Jan 21, 2007 at 08:06:15 PM MST

There are numerous things to mind carefully. The pump needs to sit at least 15 degrees off horizontal. If your vertical lift is really 100 feet, not 50, your flow with the first system listed goes to 5 gallons per minute.

Also, your local codes may require a certain GPM supply to the house and you may have to start with that as a baseline.

Also, I can tell you all this stuff, but it's your house and it's hard to cover everything, but here's a couple of ways, the most basic being this:

Use a 1/2 hp. nominal 10 gpm 240 vac submersible pump. This will give you about 10 gallons per minute at that lift (50 feet static lift + pressure tank pressure assuming 30 psi. cut in and 50 psi. cut out + flow losses in piping). Run sch. 40 PVC (1 1/4 inch nominal size) below frost depth to keep flow losses low and you can run #10 copper wire (10/3 w/ gd. for 3 wire motor or 10/2 w/ gd. for 2 wire motor) to the pump. At this wire size you can run up to 1000 feet without making the motor unhappy. Get a 1000 foot reel of the wire if you can, buried splices suck. If you have to splice it, sleeve it in conduit to a weatherproof junction box mounted on post high enough to keep it out of the snow and make your splices there. Makes sense?

Now here's a better way, more complicated but better.

If you aren't already saying, "whoa, what the hell?", check this out.

Use a 1/2 hp pump in your spring box, nominal gpm 16-18. Push it through the same
1 1/4 inch PVC to a cistern close to the house, say 600 gallons or more direct burial polyethylene. Control the spring box pump with a float switch and feed the house with a Grundfos MQ-4-45 booster pump in the basement or crawl space or wherever your treatment stuff is. Now you've got the same wire run to the spring box pump and can pressurize at the house with power there. You get 16 gpm into your cistern and 16 gpm at 30 psi at your house plus a cistern to dip out of when the power fails. Or go 1/3 hp 10-12 gpm at the spring box, go to #12 wire and let the cistern take up the surge capacity when you house is using more than your spring box pump is putting out.

If your skills as plumber and electrician aren't up to the task, sigh, know your limits and see about a really good iron filter if that is the only problem. I use some that can treat up to about 8 ppm.

Free advice for what it's worth, and one more disclaimer, what you do is up to you, but don't try it if none of this makes sense, okay?

Good luck.

[ Parent ]

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#27)
by scesnick on Mon Jan 22, 2007 at 06:23:12 AM MST

Thanks for the info. I just have one more question. (and remember, my knowledge of pumps in minimal). Is there any way to put the pump in my basement and not have to run the electrical wire 600+feet to the spring box? Sort of like a pump that sucks the water to the house instead of a pump that pushes the water to the house?

[ Parent ]

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#28)
by remember on Mon Jan 22, 2007 at 07:15:26 PM MST

No, you can't suction lift that far. But that was the direction I was going with the smaller pump down below and the booster in the basement. You can do it with your pressure tank instead of a cistern if you wnat to too. Just set the pressure switch down as low as you can and lower the tank precharge to match. Put the booster after the pressure tank. The booster will suction lift to about 23 feet below the pump so you could do part of it this way. It does not eliminate the wire runs it just allows you to downsize them.

Oh, your question about pumping the well a bunch by just running your hose bib for a long time to get it to clear up. Definitely try it. Sometimes it does work.

Best of luck

[ Parent ]

Re: Using my creek for household water (3.00 / 0) (#29)
by Hank on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 07:39:45 AM MST

I had a similar situation.
Off grid so no spare electricity, a creek that runs about 300 ft away needing a lift of approx 80 ft.

I built a ram pump and it supplies water 24/7 and if dead-headed at the house/camp will pressurise to 80 psi, that's after rising about 80 ft.

The down sider is that flow is low (about 1/2 gpm in my case). The upside is that it does not require any power and it pumps 24/7 and the cost to make it yourself is very low.

In my case the water is used for bathing, washing but not for consumption. I pump it into 200 gal barrels and treat with chlorine.

Pressure and flow will depend on pump size and the vertical drop of your stream. In my case the pump has a vertical drop of 6 ft in a 40 ft run. I use garden hoses to get the water to my camp.

In winter it needs to drained down.

[ Parent ]

Using my creek for household water | 29 comments (29 topical)

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