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Basic 3 - Phase Stator question


By CmeBREW, Section Newbies
Posted on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 at 01:02:19 AM MST
Basic 3-phase Stator question

Hello guys.
I finally (!!!) got my first 3-phase stator done and it is in the Vawt windmill, but I am having problem (I think) with hooking up the bridge rectifiers.
I suspect the bridge rectifiers polarity 'markings' are incorrect. I got them from the SurplusCenter catalog. In their picture on the internet their picture is opposite from the ones they sent me. It is also missing most of the markings. Only a positive (+) shows on one corner. So I keep trying it different ways but the DC voltage don't seem high enough after the 2 rectifiers. I hooked them up like Danb's 3-phase hook-up page showed.






So my question is, If the voltage is 8 volts AC between any two wires from the 3-phases (the 3 wires), then what should the total DC voltage be after the rectifiers?
It does around 8 DC volts after rectifiers, at about 60 rpm. I can't find the answer. I thought it would be higher after the rectifiers. The AC voltage is the same for each of the 3 phases.  I was hoping for 12 volts (cut-in) around 60-70 rpm for my New Vawt. It reaches 12 DC volts at about 120rpm.
I just got the thing up a couple hours ago, and there was (of course) ZERO wind. So I didn't have much time to try all different combinations. I had to turn it by hand.

EACH of the 3 phases shows the same 8 AC volts at 60 rpm.
There is going to only be 5-10mph breezes tomorrow,,but maybe I'll figure it out.

Would appreciate any help.

Basic 3 - Phase Stator question | 54 comments (54 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by harrie on Sun Oct 28th, 2007 at 08:45:49 PM MST
(User Info)

On the rectifiers, the nagative lug should be diaganel from the positive, the other two would be the ac conections from the stator. if you are using two rectifiers, than you would use both ac lugs on one of them, and only one on the other. and yes, your dc volts should be more than measureing two of the ac leads. Of course, you need to run the positive and negative from both rectifiers in parallel to the batterys.



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Devo on Sun Oct 28th, 2007 at 10:14:49 PM MST
(User Info)

CmeBrew

All of the bridge diodes I have bought so far have one corner shaved off. That corner is the positive terminal opposite to that is the negative(180 %). the other 2 terminals which would be 90 %from positive either way would be the AC inputs..  Does that make sense??

Devo



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Flux on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 at 01:22:07 AM MST
(User Info)

Perhaps the problem is not the rectifiers.

I see 14 coils in your picture, if it is 3 phase I assume you have 18.67 poles, a fairly unlikely situation. Another dream number out of the hat by the looks of it.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Flux on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 at 01:37:44 AM MST
(User Info)

Sorry, not sure what happened, I counted it 3 times and got 14. Then I counted it anticlockwise and got 15. It has decided to stay at 15 now so that is fine for 20 poles.

With 8v ac you should get about 11v dc.

I would be reluctant to trust any rectifiers that are marked wrong, they will be makers rejects and may have other problems. As the others have said the positive has a chamfer, negative is opposite and the ac are the ones between.

If you have a meter with diode check on it you can confirm with that.

As a final check that the rectifier is working ok, short the dc leads and see that it is stiff and smooth to turn. If you can feel it turning in discrete lumps then the rectifier is not working properly. You should also get the same dc volts out with each ac lead removed in turn ( assuming you can turn it at constant speed). If the 3 single phase outputs are not equal then again you have rectifier trouble.

Sorry about the first post, when I saw who posted it I went back and had a re-count.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by tecker on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 at 01:36:08 AM MST
(User Info)

 Did you finish out Star or delta . Also is that awg 16  on the pig tail .



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by juddley (judd at juddley dot com) on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 at 02:00:58 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.juddley.com/

Nice looking stator...

Rectifier Diodes are very easy to test with a multimeter.. This WEB site has a great walk through with pics... loads fast...

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_3/2.html

You will have to remove from the circuit to test.

It always helps me to keep it straight to make a quick sketch as each pair of terminals is tested.. then I mark them on the bridge so I can remember which is which. There are industry standards for each type of package but I have seen many odddball units with strange configurations. As these are surplus, they may be non-standard.

Juddley



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 at 08:25:41 AM MST
(User Info)

Thanks much,,,I will try those things today. They upped the wind forecast to 10-15mph.
The stator is in STAR and I had encased the other 3 points within the polyester since I knew I would not need them for Delta. The 3 wires are 18 ga. wire and the coil(s) wire is 20 ga. wire by 80 turns ea.(I am not that good yet at winding)
The stator is 1/4" thick.(maybe a hair more toward the center)

So by what Flux said, I assume it is 1.4 multiplied by the AC voltage of each (or;one) phase, is the total expected output. I see now. I hope I didn't get a bad rectifier!  I have 6 - 6amp diodes to try like DAnB showed if I have to.

11 volts at 60-70 rpm would be very acceptable considering I had to open the gap more because the steel mag discs are not running perfectly true. One is a 1/16" off up and down, and the other one is another 1/16" off! - Thats an  1/8 of an inch more on the gap than expected.(Total gap about 3/8")
The mags are 1" dia. by 1/4" thick, N42.

The mill is VERY hard to turn when all 3 wires are shorted. What a magnetic brake!
Thanks for the help. Now I know something must be wrongly hooked.




Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 at 08:34:56 AM MST
(User Info)

I forgot this. Heres a picture of it now. Today I might get to see what WATTS this thing will do (if any!) in a 15mph wind!!






[ Parent ]



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by tecker on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 at 11:23:27 AM MST
(User Info)

You can double the voltage with some current limiting of coarse This should get you charging in low winds . Pick one phase lead and use it for common sort of a center tap adding two doublers one a to c and one a two b.I like to pulse with this but current charge is good or a combination is also good.






Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by DamonHD (d@hd.org) on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 at 12:11:21 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.earth.org.uk/

You can see a slightly more generic voltage multiplier circuit on my page:

http://www.earth.org.uk/wind-power-pilot-autumn-2007.html

In fact, the top one uses an arbitrary phase as 'neutral' and I'm using the circuit right now.

The next circuit takes more account of the three-phase nature of the beast, but I haven't tried it yet.

For decent charging currents you're going to need to try bigger caps.

Rgds

Damon

[ Parent ]



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by tecker on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 at 01:58:21 PM MST
(User Info)

The beauty of this circuit is it reestablishes a voltage as the sum of the peak to peak ac voltage plus the ripple of which there's a lot rectifiying with these circuits .The battry eats the ripple up and the caps  can stay somewhat static ,  and easy to switch around . No waste I think the other circuit I posted is a practical and expanable circuit that you can take taps off of  various potientials   to try  match the rpm with the state of charge (el  cheapo) the feed back circuits can be current monitoring or rpm or battery voltage .

[ Parent ]


Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by DamonHD (d@hd.org) on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 at 02:01:05 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.earth.org.uk/

Right, but if the caps are too small on any of these circuits then you won't transfer much charge (ie current) on each cycle.  If you only want the tiniest of trickle charges then that may be OK.  Else some experimentation may be needed.

Rgds

Damon

[ Parent ]



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#51)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Sun Nov 4th, 2007 at 04:23:55 PM MST
(User Info)

And with the low frequencies you get from a windmill the caps have to be HUMUNGOUS or you get negligible current.

[ Parent ]


Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by tecker on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 at 11:31:11 AM MST
(User Info)

Here's another circuit with the coman phase lead as ground





Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 at 02:33:27 PM MST
(User Info)

Well... Its not looking too good at this point. The alternator I made is not matched well enough to the EXTREMELY LOW rpm of this VAWT wind rotor.
I also realize that my RPM estimates were off. I put a big piece of duct tape on one of the blades and using my stop watch in hand, I can can see now it goes slower rpm than I had previously though. In the VIDEO I had made on YOutube, I now believe it was only going about 100rpm, NOT anywhere near 200rpm!

The RPM range of the alternator is simply way too high for this Vawt rotor.
So this alternator would certainly make a nice low-wind HAWT mill, since it would easily go up past 300rpm. The 12volt 'cut-in' IS about 70rpm.  However, the VAWT rotor rarely goes above 100 rpm.(on a so-called, 10-15mph wind day)
It goes about 100rpm at a 12-15mph wind.  Therefore, it only did 5 stinkin watts or so, at 100rpm.  I could spin it faster with my hand (around 150rpm or so) and it went up close to 20 watts. I expect it will at least make 20 watts in a bigger wind--but the rpm is still very limited and slow.
I did expect more. My very first 3-phase stator WAS a real pain it the A$#^#beep to make. It is NOT one of my favorite things.
I may make a smaller diameter vawt rotor (18" diam by 5 ft. high) to get the speed up.(even though the over-all power will be cut in half)

Or, I can try this 'voltage doubler' circuit that Tecker and Damon mentioned. However, I see a transformer in there , and this is 3-phase, not one. It doesn't make much sense to me.   The Vawt rotor has been turning 60-100rpm for most of the day and with some good torque. But as of yet, I cannot tap into that low rpm range!!!!  Forget gearing--  I am quite certain it looses about HALF the power potential. Thats why I attempted direct alternator drive.

-I will keep trying. Any more suggestions or circuits are most welcome.  -Thanks.



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by DamonHD (d@hd.org) on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 at 02:39:55 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.earth.org.uk/

Hi,
  1. All the circuits shown are cap & diode only: the coils are the coils in your gen.
  2. I wish I could lend you my 48V PM gen that I'm not going to be able to use for the next few days at least: I'm hoping it will cut in at 12V at ~120rpm or less.
Rgds

Damon

[ Parent ]



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by DamonHD (d@hd.org) on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 at 02:43:02 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.earth.org.uk/

Note also that my top circuit is a multiplier rather than just a doubler: nominally 4x, though more realistically 3x after diode losses from a ~5V gen output.

It does work, but you will need bigger caps to deliver >1W.  I can try to do the sums again if you'd like, but just try it with some cheap caps and diodes and see if you get the multiplication effect at all.  It does work for me on a tiny turbine.

Rgds

Damon

[ Parent ]



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by vawtman (vawtman(at)charter(dot)net) on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 at 04:18:56 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi Brew
 Your runnin quarter inch thick mags now Right?Whats the airgap between them?mag to mag.I like Garys idea if it can be done with the setup you have.

 Hang in there.

[ Parent ]



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#52)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Sun Nov 4th, 2007 at 04:26:03 PM MST
(User Info)

It will be cheaper to build a new stator with more turns than to buy capacitors big enough to make the voltage doubler work.

[ Parent ]


Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#53)
by fcfcfc on Sun Nov 4th, 2007 at 08:29:17 PM MST
(User Info)

Try this 3 phase voltage tripling circuit...

.....Bill





[ Parent ]



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by Gary D on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 at 03:05:28 PM MST
(User Info)

A quick thought would be to double up(stack) on the magnets. You may get closer to what you want... Just a thought...



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 at 03:16:51 PM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

since it's 3 phase you could jerry rig it to get the voltage up


W o o f -={(



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 at 05:51:18 PM MST
(User Info)

Thanks guys.

Well I do have a few things to try. Probably making the small diameter rotor is my best bet right now. Second is to make another stator with even smaller ga. (24ga) wire. Now, I see that I would rather have 'cut-in' at 30rpm or even 20rpm if possible.
Stacking 40 more magnets just isn't feasible I'm afraid. There is almost 1/16" epoxy over the mags now. I was afraid this could happen because I (in the beginning) had purchased too small of magnets! I am ONLY going to buy 1/2" thick magnets from now on, to compensate for my poorly wrapped coils AND my crooked steel magnet discs. If those 40 magnets on my mag rotors had been 1/2" thick, everything would have worked WAY better I think.

Concerning those basic Voltage doubler circuits, I DO have 3 big AC (big MFd) 'runnning' capacitors and several 6amp diodes, so I may try to see what happens making one of those circuits.  I'm not so sure about the series "Jerry rigged" circuit WOOF showed. The 3 are out of phase, so I'm not sure if that would work. I quess that would take BIG capacitors also. Unfortunetly, I buried the other 3 wires in plastic.
Making the smaller Diametor rotor will not take long at all. First, i will mount the Prototype small rotor on the alternator and see what happens. The hub turns real easy since I cut out the rubber seal on the bottom.

If I get any better results, I will post them here.
Feel free to comment more if you think of anything at all.



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by HomegrownPower on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 at 06:40:45 PM MST
(User Info)

CmeBREW Great looking job your doing . You will figure it out and make it work I'm sure . ( another newbe here ) hoping to have one flying in a few weeks myself . I have a few good starts on one waiting on my magnet wire now. I have # 20 also and some #13 comming . Not sure but I was hoping to do better also ( more volts ) so I sure hope you figure it out . Keep us posted I'll get my results and let you know what I get with 3 phase with number 20 wire Lonnie

[ Parent ]


Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by tecker on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 at 06:57:50 PM MST
(User Info)

I can sympathize with the down side of vawts you 'll have to make work with one alternate plan so you can get a good idea what it will do  vawts are really toped out at 100 rpm in normal winds . When a northern blows through you can see it run
for a few hours . Wire it up in different ways and carry on.  Scale it up with an H frame .  Stack two more on top and go 2 to one  .  



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by tecker on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 at 07:01:22 PM MST
(User Info)

Drag vawts are topped out at least .

[ Parent ]


Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by electrondady1 on Tue Oct 30th, 2007 at 06:48:42 AM MST
(User Info)

cmebrew,
.
congratulations on getting your geni wired up .
i think you have done great for your first one.
i have a collection of 8 volt stators gathering dust around here .lol
wonder if it might be practical to go with six volt batteries?
that way you could let this one live and move on to the next one.

i am curious , if you short the dc leads does the mill come to a  stop?
just comparing the torque your mill produces with the load your alt puts on it.

[ Parent ]



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Tue Oct 30th, 2007 at 08:03:41 AM MST
(User Info)

Thanks Electrondady,

       Yes, If I had a 6 volt battery I am certain it would do exactly what I was wanting. But I do not. The only way to make it work well for 12volt I think, is to have bigger and/or thicker magnets and extremely STRONG magnetic flux with a thin stator to raise the AMPS quickly with the slow rpm. When I short the 3 wires, It is VERY hard to turn by hand. However, the wind rotor STILL manages to turn it slowly even in breezes from the very strong Torque and it should turn fairly fast in bigger winds. I havent had a real decent wind yet above 15mph.

I think this Vawt should still make 40-50 watts in a 30mph wind though. I know 5 watts is laughable right now and I hope the 'flaming' Hawt fellows drank too much at the Hawt party last night. (ha)  -Nevertheless, I WILL figure it out soon. I'm not giving up. I can see and feel the Torque there, I just need to HARVEST that slower rpm TORQUE! (without gearing)  So, yes, this time I failed to bring in the 'Harvest'.

By the way, my 4 foot hawt, did almost nothing (power wise)yesterday on a 10-15mph day. Sure, it went up to 25watts for a several seconds during the best gusts, but it did not last long at all, or accumulate much power. I am still certain this Vawt would do better since it turned from 30-100rpm all day long. (about 8 hours)  If I could just get 1-20 watts out of it it would be very useful since it would be so consistent and accumulate small amounts of power over 8 to 10 hours.
So I will keep on trying to do so.    -Thanks  

[ Parent ]



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by Gary D on Tue Oct 30th, 2007 at 09:34:19 AM MST
(User Info)

 Hang in there! If you pop over to otherpower.com on the top of this page, and click on the hydro link, you'll see Scotty's hydro project. Dan B. built the stator with a cut in of 38(?) rpm... Thicker wire and larger magnets may well get you there. I think you are very close. Your machine looks great, it just needs a bit of "tweaking" .... Thoughts from the cheap seats, rooting for ya here...

[ Parent ]


Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#27)
by Flux on Tue Oct 30th, 2007 at 10:59:11 AM MST
(User Info)

For the power you are aiming for there is no need for bigger magnets, you can lower the cut in speed by using more turns of thinner wire.

If you are prepared to play with simple electronics then you can boost the output voltage of that stator by using a mixed bridge of 3 diodes and 3 mosfets, just drive all fet gates together at about 10kHz, there will be enough inductance in the windings to do it without extra inductors.

The basic power circuit is somewhere in my files. A 555 oscillator followed by a mosfet driver would do to generate the pulses, just set the pwm manually to get the boost you need. I realise that to most people any form of electronics is out, just depends what you are used to playing with. I wouldn't bother with the multipliers and doublers but they may just be possible at such low power levels, I have never found them satisfactory for more than a few hundred mA.

[ Parent ]



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#28)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Tue Oct 30th, 2007 at 04:03:32 PM MST
(User Info)

Thanks Flux.  I'm trying to stay away from electonics for now. I just don't have time to study it right now--but I will over the winter.  However,I think I found an easier way.

To everyone,
Thanks for your vote of confidence!

I have some good news. I just put Vertigo JR. rotor on that alternator , and as I suspected, it is doing WAY better now. But there are only tiny breezes right now.
However, It is actually charging 1-5 watts in very tiny breezes! (under 10 I believe)





As I had said before, the big rotor was MISMATCHED for that alternator.
This small 18 inch diameter rotor goes much faster rpm. Probably twice as fast.
The separation of the blades could also have something to do with it.
I now believe its easier to make the difficult alternator FIRST (as low rpm as you can), and THEN try to match a rotor to it. I am understanding more now.

Tomorrow is forecast for some GIANT winds. The biggest in a long time. The weather channel for my area says; 25-35mph with possible gusts up to 50mph!  
Its going to be like a moderate hurricane!  So I will get to see what this little baby can do!!
I got a strong feeling is going to be VERY good.
I will put it in my DIARY if everything goes as I believe it will. (easier to find that way)     -Thanks folks.



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#32)
by ghurd on Wed Oct 31st, 2007 at 10:00:23 AM MST
(User Info)

I'm not pretending to know much about it.
Would it help keep the blades a bit more solid with a simple piece of bailing wire in a circle through the center blade holes?  Just to keep them from bowing out at 50MPH.
G-

[ Parent ]


Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#33)
by TomW on Wed Oct 31st, 2007 at 10:40:49 AM MST
(User Info)

ghurd;

I was kind of thinking along the same lines a "band" around the half way point up the wings like barrel bands.

Cheers.

TomW

"Education consists mainly of what we have unlearned."--Mark Twain
[ Parent ]



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#29)
by jmk on Tue Oct 30th, 2007 at 04:32:24 PM MST
(User Info)

 Sounds like your going to need to hook up a dump load. I have been following your progress. I find your project interesting. Your stator looks nice. I can't wait to hear what those winds do for you. Never a dull day when you own a wind mill. For the longest time I used to think windy days were aggravating!
jmk


Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#30)
by finnsawyer on Wed Oct 31st, 2007 at 08:52:57 AM MST
(User Info)

I don't see any iron backing behind that stator.  If there is none then adding one will improve performance.  If you are using such then how thick are both the rotor and the stator iron?

I think at some point you VAWT guys are going to have to take a serious look at the design I proposed in my diary.  Of course, you'll have to do it from the start as you can not retrofit it once you've glued everything down.  The design requires a larger rotor and more coils for the same investment in magnets, but should give more power and a lower cut-in RPM.

In order to keep TomW and that other guy happy I'm suppose to state that it's an unproven design.  Why we need to keep TomW happy beats me except that he wields a big eraser.  In any case, the VAWT crowd keeps running into that too high cut-in RPM wall.  So, maybe it's time to try something different.  
GeoM



CHEAP SHOT (3.00 / 0) (#31)
by TomW on Wed Oct 31st, 2007 at 09:34:49 AM MST
(User Info)

See subject.

I won't lead the thread off topic explaining why its cheap to take shots at people like this or why it should not be tolerated.

Apologies to CmeBREW for my diverging...

[ Parent ]



Re: CHEAP SHOT (3.00 / 0) (#34)
by electrondady1 on Wed Oct 31st, 2007 at 03:48:04 PM MST
(User Info)

fin, i believe it's a dual rotor alt.

[ Parent ]


Re: CHEAP SHOT (3.00 / 0) (#41)
by finnsawyer on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 09:14:37 AM MST
(User Info)

Well, I don't think it was a cheap shot.  I think the basic question about the diodes was answered.  As far as going off topic, he still was concerned about the relatively high cut-in RPM.  This naturally leads to questions about the construction.  So, the question dealt with the rotor thicknesses.  If they are too thin the iron would be in magnetic saturation.  A possible solution would be to add more thickness to the rotors.  Not a perfect solution, but doable.

It would seem that with about 40 magnets he should get more voltage than he does, even with 1/4 inch thick Neos.  Before he rewinds the stator with thinner wire I think he should do an experiment.  Double the overall air gap and measure the voltages at the same RPM.  The flux should be cut in half as well as the voltage, but if the iron parts are in saturation it may not be.  He may, in fact, be able to wind thicker coils with the same size wire and get a lower cut-in.

As far as the effect of the iron in saturation, think of it this way:  Normally, in a magnetic circuit the reluctance of the iron is low compared to that of the air gap, similar to a 1 ohm resistor in series with a 100 ohm resistor.  So, doubling the 100 ohm resistor cuts the current in half.  Same for doubling the air gap relative to the magnetic flux.  With the iron in saturation it might be equivalent to 50 ohms in series with the 100 ohms.  Doubling the resistance to 200 ohms does not cut the current in half.  A similar effect could exist with the magnetic flux if the iron is in saturation to begin with.  In any case that simple experiment should be worth doing even if the result is negative.

To recap, my original question was not a cheap shot but an attempt to start a dialogue.  If he chooses not to respond that is his decision.

While everybody else around here can voice their opinion, I guess I'm not supposed to.  When I do it, it's a cheap shot.  
GeoM
[ Parent ]



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#35)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Wed Oct 31st, 2007 at 03:49:39 PM MST
(User Info)

I wish I had good news. That tiny vawt rotor is smaller surface area than a 3 foot hawt. I'm sure most everyone here already knew what was going to happen.  STALL,STALL, and terrible STALL!
I just thought it would stall alittle later though. I was wrong.
It does alot of 'trickle charge' (.5 - 5 watts) upto 100rpm, but in the big winds it's like hitting a brick wall around 100-120rpm.  It usually stalls at only 6 watts(.5amp) even in a 20mph wind.
 I could disconnect one of the phase wires and it would go up to about 12 watts before stall. But then you miss the 'trickle charges' keeping that way.
Or, I could disconnect all and let it free spin faster and then hook up ammeter quick and it would briefly show 30 watts or so. (Which is cheating by the way)

There were even upto 30mph gusts today.  
I hate to say this, but I am beginning to believe there is not much power in these basic drag pvc vawt rotors like I just made. I was just experimenting. At least I tell the TRUTH. I will keep messing around with it though. It is discouraging though. I will try to contain my hopeful 'speculations' more, from now on.

Since they are now outlawing small windmills in many,many counties everywhere,(more than ever now)  I was just hoping to make something less noticable, even if it does only do a fraction of the power a HAWT does.(I wanted to put up several)
  But designing and making something new and matching a generator to it is extremely difficult and (will be) alot of work to actually make one that usefully works.  

Finsawyer:  I think stators like you're talking about (or similar) have been done before, (overlapping coils, electronic switching between sets of 3-phase coils,etc.) but,,, it is simply over my abilities to make at this time. I had a heck of a time with the basic one i just made . (and I am very glad that it works!)  I had alot of cross-overs and alot of air in the coils. Plus, the exact spacing of my coils is FAR from perfect.  I will keep it in mind If I ever get the skill to believe I could make something like that. Besides, for me, cut-in is not the problem anymore. I can get 30rpm cut-in now.  Yes, its the WHOLE thing is the problem now!  -Thanks.

 



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#36)
by TomW on Wed Oct 31st, 2007 at 04:12:07 PM MST
(User Info)

Brew;

If they are working on outlawing you best get one or six up so you get "grandfathered" in.

Seriously. I doubt they can make you remove it once its up because they write a new law.

Cheers.

TomW

"Education consists mainly of what we have unlearned."--Mark Twain
[ Parent ]



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#38)
by electrondady1 on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 06:55:29 AM MST
(User Info)

i'm not sure i follow your last post
 and what the source of your disappointment is .
you designed the alt. for your big mill but found it didn't turn fast enough to reach a charging voltage.
but by using the smaller mill it could reach charging voltage (thats good)
you also found that even in higher winds the mill has a peak of 120rpm .
you also found out that even with strong winds your mill design does not fall apart.

i hate to go all optimistic on you but you seem to have designed and built a
devise that will charge a battery in modest winds,  survive a storm
and looks really good. !!!

[ Parent ]



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#37)
by ghurd on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 06:24:23 AM MST
(User Info)

Maybe open the air gap a little.

My stuff stalls when the PMA is too efficient or powerful for the blades.
G-

[ Parent ]



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#40)
by disaray1 on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 08:39:21 AM MST
(User Info)

Cme, I have come to about the same conclusions as you about vawt (at least simple savonius that is), just after doing a few tests with different pm dc motors. It's clear to me now how inefficient the vawt is compared to the hawt. The single barrel sav has one surface doing all of the work while its mate is resisting the work being accomplished. The hawt, on the otherhand, has all blades working constantly in unison. These same conclusions surely have been recognized by everyone who has ever built one, you and I are just the latest here to figure it out. I think a vawt can work to produce substantial electricity; just not a simple sav. It's got to be a darrieus or derivative to get anything useful out, and still it'll have problems. But building and learning is where the fun lies.

 What I find the most interesting about this whole project, is observing in myself the glitch in human nature that causes generation after generation to try something that's been done thousands of times before with poor results, thinking that everyone before us must have just not done it correctly, or that our results will surely be better than the rest, because we are smarter. Yes?   It's the repeating history thing. As smart as humans are, we just cant help ourselves from making the same mistakes as those before us. Over and over and over. War, politics, religion, government and windmills. Off topic, sorry.

 The best I've gotten so far with the barrel sav was 24 watts...12 volts at 2amps during a storm gust of about 30mph. Lasted for about 3 seconds. I know I can do better...must be time to add the second barrel and make a few more time proven mistakes. :)

 David

 Ps. I keep thinking about the clean air at 100 feet and up. A DanB machine at eight feet off the ground, I expect, would be a poor performer also (probably because the blades would be in the dirt!)and I suspect that your vawt at 100 feet would be much much happier. Can you put up a tower, or is that out?

 

[ Parent ]



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#42)
by finnsawyer on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 09:45:39 AM MST
(User Info)

Just for the record, the coils in my design do not overlap.  In fact they are spaced by one magnet's width apart.  Since they are not scrunched together accurate placement should be easier (or am I just biased).  Anyway, good luck and enjoy.
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#39)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 07:54:05 AM MST
(User Info)

I quess I was overly dissappointed last night. Sorry about that. Yes, I went to the OTHER extreme by putting that tiny vawt rotor on that strong alternater--which is obviously big time STALL.
It stalls QUICK too. I can turn the alternator by hand (no rotor on), and I had no idea it requires such extreme Torque (from my arm) just to make 25 watts at about 150rpm. It would probably make a nice 100watt Pedgen. This alternator sure wants to raise the AMPS FAST after about 100 rpm. It may do 100watts at only 200rpm!! But the TORQUE required would be INSAIN. Now I fully understand the need for speed. To keep cutting the torque requirements in half. I wonder if everyone else has such a hard time getting 25 watts turning their alternator by hand?

Ghurd is right. I will go buy some more 1/2" washers and open the gap some. He and others are also right about the big rotor being 'flimsy' especially in bigger winds.
I will work on stabilizing them with a band or another disc in the middle hopefully this weekend.
Maybe I can get something out of it yet.
Also, I was thinking last night, that that nice rotor design from Ed (Len2) might just work great for this alternator.  



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#43)
by ghurd on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 10:46:55 AM MST
(User Info)

Maybe Ed will chime in, but I don't think that alternator will work with the Lenz2.
Those are lift based and go like heck, so it would stall even quicker than the one you have.
Ed?
G-

[ Parent ]


Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#44)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 07:27:38 PM MST
(User Info)

Thanks guys.
     Well, I did test some things. I was fearful that I may have put a coil in backwards, and that it may be causing magnetic braking after cut-in. I took the alternator down to test in my shop. I highly doubt thats the case because, once again, all 3 phases tested out at 7 volts AC each at 60 rpm, and 14 volts each at about 120rpm.

I can 'free spin' the alternator pretty fast by hand (UNLOADED) and get between 30-40 volts DC. (after rectifiers) This sounds correct to me. I even tried the 6 diodes like Danb showed incase I hooked the rectifiers wrong---but it did the same exact thing.
I don't think there are any shorts.

I believe this alternator I made is the main problem, NOT the Vawt rotor!
I will try to explain.  Cut-in IS at 70rpm as I had wanted. But It is hard as HECK TO TURN  by hand, especially after only about 90 rpm!!
After only 100 rpm it is MEGA difficult to turn by hand. I can usually only maintain about 10-12 watts turning it by the threadrod that comes up from the hub. For a second or two I can barely hit 18 watts. (1.5amp) I can't turn it any faster.
Therefore, I believe I have very bad STALL due to the stator I made.
 The amps seem to want to raise way TOO fast.

I believe Finsawyer mentioned it. I will have to re-make the stator and use the same 20 GA. wire and use MORE turns and thus thicker coils and stator. I'm thinking 3/8" thick and a 1/2" mag to mag air gap.  Then I can even lower the cut-in to 50-60 rpm, and because the mag flux is weaker, the amps won't try to raise as fast, thereby causing a severe STALL situation. (and this time I will leave all 6 wires come out)

I still do believe I can get SOME useful power out of my Vawt if I can match the alternator within range.  Making something for the first time is WAY more difficult than simply COPYING someone else's design. So please give me some time.
I haven't even put the REAL Vawt rotor (Vertigo SR.) on the altenator to test it yet! I haven't had time yet. Before I do , I want to stabilize the 'flimsy' long blades by putting in a 3rd round support plywood disc in the middle. I will do it this weekend and test it. I will also try to open the gap 1/16" to maybe bring it out of SOME STALL. But doing this will RAISE the Cut-in point which is not good for my situation. But I will try it anyway.

Finsawyer: Sorry I mis-quoted your idea. I will have to look at it again later. Sorry I don't understand anything about "Saturation" at this time.

I believe LENZ2 is a Drag AND lift rotor.  It goes faster than drag machines, so I was thinking if I opened up the mag gap, that rotor could have the high torque and speed I need for this alternator. His is 3 foot diametor--which is TWICE the torque of my 2 foot diameter--plus his rotor evidently goes much faster than mine.



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#45)
by ghurd on Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 at 07:59:07 AM MST
(User Info)

I think just opening the air gap will do it.

Two things make me think that way.
One, opening the gap (reduces voltage) and adding more turns (increases voltage) will sort of keep the voltage the same(-ish).  But the output will be limited because of the extra turns resistance, so some of the power drag will be there even if the output numbers don't show it.
Two, opening the gap raises the cut-in, but without the drag at low speed, the mill should go faster in the same low winds, so the low wind trickle charge might not be as different as you'd think.

How far away is the test battery?  Right under the VAWT?
Might find the resistance of the 100' of #14 to the main battery helps the situation too.

Very interesting project!
G-

[ Parent ]



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#46)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 at 08:55:20 AM MST
(User Info)

Thanks Ghurd,,
     These alternators sure are complex! I think you're right. There are SO many things, its difficult to explain. And I am just learning as I go, and I may be confusing some people. I am doing the best I can with my limited knowledge and experience. I only had 3 inches of 'leverage' turning the hub by the threadrod for those tests I just mentioned. I put a bar clamp on to get some more leverage, and now I can get 30 or 40 watts -but its not easy! The clamp gives roughly about 10 inches of leverage from the center point. I have to work most of today, but tonight and tomorrow I will open up the gap a bit, as you say, to hopefully get out of such early stall, and stabilize the flimsy blades and then test it again. By the way, last week I had let that big flimsy rotor 'free-spin' (no load) in a 35 mph BIG wind and it sure appeared to turn quite fast and it actually looked like JELLO as it was turning. It balanced itself good but sorta looked like jello jyrating. Sorta funny looking.
I have never tested the big rotor under the load of the alternator above (what looks to be) a 10-12mph breeze. So I am still excited to do so, even if I did mis-estimate the torque of this simple drag vawt rotor. I still hope to get something out of it, and will improve from there.
My test battery was right under the vawt.(8ft wire)

I was wondering if the fact that my coils are so 'sloppily' wrapped, and two of the coils moved out of place an 1/8" sideways, if that would cause such horrible Eddy currents, that it appears there is a magnetic brake on when you turn it above cut-in??
I had thought that since it is in 'STAR' it wouldnt have that problem. I don't know. But it sure seems like a magnetic brake is on when I turn it by hand, especially after 10 watts. (being inexperienced, I have no idea!)     -Thanks.

[ Parent ]



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#47)
by ghurd on Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 at 09:39:22 AM MST
(User Info)

I can't figure how there would be an eddy current problem only above cut-in, but I'm not sure.
The 'magnetic brake' you feel is power being made.

It's OVER twice as hard to make twice as much power, because the losses in the PMA increase as the power flowing in it increases.
Watts = amps x amps x ohms.  Say the coil resistance is 1 ohm, so 1A has (1x1x1=) 1W of loss.
But 2A has (2x2x1=)4W of loss. 3A has (3x3x1=)9W of loss.

If you are guessing at wind speed, I expect you are guessing it higher than it actually is.  Many people do.  I guessed it far over what it really was.
G-


[ Parent ]



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#48)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Sat Nov 3rd, 2007 at 07:47:33 AM MST
(User Info)

YOu are right. There was almost no leverage from the threadrods--what was I thinking!.(3"of leverage!wow)  I rigged up a 12 inche leverage and I can get over 50watts now cranking with my arm-- but I can only go so fast. I am getting a good 'feel' for what it takes to make WATTS at such low rpms now. It is more than I had imagined.
I will test everything together today and tomorrow- and see what I can get out of it.
Of course this is only my second rotor experiment. I think the 6" pvc would have been far better choice for these bigger radius rotors. The small arch seems to be too sharp on the 4" pvc I'm using now-- and I am having doubts that the wind is 'swirling' around correctly in the middle of the cylinder rotor for extra torque. Inotherwords, the 3"wide arch is so small, that it points toward the center point too much. 4" wide blades would be better I think.  (I also have 26ga. sheet metal to try)  

I think you are right about quessing wind speed. I have never seen a wind meter to have any idea. I try to quess low than high.  
I just quess by what the weather people say the wind day is suppose to be. Like today is suppose to be 10-15mph. Tomorrow is suppose to be 10-20mph. Its the best I can do at this time.

[ Parent ]



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#49)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Sat Nov 3rd, 2007 at 07:37:27 PM MST
(User Info)

Update correction:

"Yes, If I had a 6 volt battery I am certain it would do exactly what I was wanting. But I do not. The only way to make it work well for 12volt I think, is to have bigger and/or thicker magnets and extremely STRONG magnetic flux with a thin stator to raise the AMPS quickly with the slow rpm.  However, the wind rotor STILL manages to turn it slowly even in breezes from the very strong Torque and it should turn fairly fast in bigger winds."

I now believe everything I said above is wrong. Sorry about that,, but I just learnt some new things.  
A 6 volt battery would have STALLED it even WAY earlier-- as would have having thicker magnets and even stronger flux. Using 24ga mag wire (same thickness) would have STALLED it also. The main thing I've learned is--STALL is NOT simple with Vawts!!!

The rotor DID very slowly turn it, but it would have NEVER turned much faster in bigger winds. It was severely STAlled.  I just opened the gap to 1/2" and now the cut-in is close to 80rpm (which is good) and the amps DO raise alittle slower. And I put the round center plywood disc support in the middle of the wind rotor, so its no longer flimsy. I should know soon if it comes out of early stall and generates something.
Believe it or not, I am learning ALOT.  



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#50)
by electrondady1 on Sun Nov 4th, 2007 at 07:09:06 AM MST
(User Info)

cmebrew.
relax,
 you are simply at the stage of the wind mill disease were it completely changes your mind and body.
(just like vampires and warewolves.) lol
don't be alarmed if you start seeing wind geni possibilities everywhere
fight the impulse to remove bits from your car to make new alternators .
be aware there will be a strong inclination to take time off work so you can mess around with your windmill.
you are not alone , we are here to help you through

once you get your alternator dialed in,
 you might consider moving it to the center position and placing your new center disk to the bottom.
that would be a very stable configuration.

[ Parent ]



Re: Basic 3 - Phase Stator question (3.00 / 0) (#54)
by ghurd on Mon Nov 5th, 2007 at 06:17:09 AM MST
(User Info)

"Believe it or not, I am learning A LOT."
I think most people learn a lot more from something that DOESN'T work right the first 10 tries.

Couple thoughts that may give you an idea,
I bet you are greatly overestimating the wind, maybe by a factor of 2 or more.  
Don't even try to get 100ma in 6MPH.  It leads to stall or very poor performance in high winds, or both. If it's unloaded, it turns faster, reaching a higher RPM in the same wind, and it seems to help my stuff a lot.  Couple times it helped me a lot, like instead of 100ma in low wind and 200ma in medium wind, it went to 50ma in low wind and 750ma in medium wind (and did much more total charging).
If it is still stalling, could add a diode or 2 or 4 in series, to jump the cutin up a bit, without hurting the upper range a whole lot. More as an experiment than a permanent fix.
G-

[ Parent ]



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