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The "Dead" Copper Myth.


By finnsawyer, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 06:44:32 PM MST
Alternator design is not a religion.

But it may as well be.  It has its Holy Grail.  That is the desire to eliminate the "dead" copper, those parts of the copper wire that do not contribute to the induced or output voltage.  But are there any?  Faraday's law states you must have a closed loop to get any voltage.  So, let's consider the following:

We assume 12 two inch by two inch magnets with 9 coils 3 inch by 3 inch.  We need about a 15 inch rotor (11.77 center to center of magnets).  The amount of copper is propotional to the area of the winding or 9 - 4 = 5 square inches per coil, or a total of 60 square inches.  The coil lengths remain fixed.  To test this myth, which states that shortening the non radial legs gives better performance we now consider 24 one inch by two inch magnets with the same total amount of copper.  We now have 60/24 = 2.5 square inches of copper per coil.  The overall coil area becomes 4.5 square inches.  We find the coil dimensions are now 1.68 inches by 2.68 inches.  Each coil leg is now 0.34 inches wide versus 0.5 inches wide for the 2 by 2 magnet case.  So, each coil has 68% as many turns.  The rotor size has changed.  We have 18 coils 1.68 inches wide.  We now get 12.35 inches center to center of the magnets.

Taking all this together, we have decreased the flux per coil by 50%, but doubled the number of coils.  We have reduced the number of turns, but increased the diameter of the rotor.  So, we can write:

  V24/V12 = 0.5x2x.68x12.35/11.77 = .713,

obviously worse.  You get a 40% greater voltage with the square magnets with the same amount of copper, which translates into the same resistance, than you do with the same amount of magnet material, but with each square magnet cut in half radially.  You are better off staying with square magnets.  This doesn't address wedge shaped magnets, but It probably also holds true that a wedge shape closer to a square will give better results.

So, my advice is to forget the "dead" copper myth and concentrate on other issues.  Chasing a Holy Grail has never paid off.      

The "Dead" Copper Myth. | 19 comments (19 topical)

Re: The "Dead" Copper Myth. (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by jacquesm on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 11:04:45 AM MST

hey Fin

just to pick on your numbers a bit you are comparing apples with oranges.

You should do the math with 12 1.41 x 2.82 magnets, then you will compare
apples with apples...

best regards,

 Jacques
www.greenbits.com



Re: The "Dead" Copper Myth. (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by DanB on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 11:48:30 AM MST

Yes, I kind of agree with jaquesm here - you are comparing apples to oranges.  I may have a misconception that the wire in the top, and bottom of the coil is 'dead' (not contributing to voltage) - Hugh Piggott's new 6' wind turbine has the magnets in sideways and it sort of has me wondering lately...

I did a quick test - and perhaps the data is flawed but I repeated it a few times with the same results.  A simple magnet rotor with 4 magnets on it 1" x 2" x 1/2" and a somewhat 'appropriate' coil found laying around.  I tried it both ways at the same rpm with the same airgap.  The best I could do with the magnets on 'normally' and the coil oriented appropriately (normally) was .9VAC.  I put them on sideways (so if the dead wire thing is true then I've doubled it almost) and the best I could do was .6VAC.  My guess is it would be even more extreme if it was a dual rotor machine with a good magnetic circuit flux lines were straight through the coil.  

At this time I disagree with you but perhaps there is something else going on.  



Re: The "Dead" Copper Myth. (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by ghurd on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 12:25:38 PM MST

I know just how you are thinking!

I currently believe it has to do with whether it is a dual rotor air core (DanB) or iron core (Zubbly).

The flux in a DanB has different polarity flux on both coil legs.  The increased frequency helps?

The flux in a Zubbly has the same polarity flux on both coil legs, and both `dead copper' sections, meaning all 4 sides have the flux value changing.  All 4 sides help?  
(OT: Sounds a bit like a square transformer to me, and therefore I don't understand why transformers are not long and narrow with the lams running the proper direction to minimize losses/eddies)

Dan gets more power because of extra magnets used less efficiently. Pros are no cogging and less wire.
Zubbly got more power per magnet because of more efficient magnet use. Cons are cogging, more wire, and iron losses.

Mr. Flux explained it a few times by thinking about the coils as linked to the flux.  The explanations were superb.   I am not qualified to go this far, let alone further.
G-

Ghurd.info



Re: The "Dead" Copper Myth. (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by electrondady1 on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 02:16:25 PM MST

ive been thinking about this very subject for awhile now.
but as of yet have no proper testing equipment .

on a coil for a magnet 1'x 2" there would be 4 linear inches  of productive copper
and two inches of unproductive copper .
but on a coil for a 1/2"x2" there would still be 4 linear inches of productive copper but only one inch of unproductive copper.

[ Parent ]



Re: The "Dead" Copper Myth. (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by jacquesm on Sat Oct 13, 2007 at 11:31:30 AM MST

zubbly's conversions do NOT cog. not at all.

there are several ways to deal with cogging, skewing the magnets, skewing the lams and fiddling with the magnet spacing so that you eat up one slot worth of space over the circumference and then leave a gap at the end.
www.greenbits.com
[ Parent ]



Re: The "Dead" Copper Myth. (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by finnsawyer on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 09:28:38 AM MST

Thanks to those who responded, but I think I threw you a curve, and I apologize for that.  The analysis is flawed.  I failed for some reason to realize that in going from 12 magnets spaced 30 degrees apart to 24 magnets spaced 15 degrees apart, the magnets move past the coils twice as fast for the same RPM.  That is, if it takes one second in the first case for a the rotor to move from having a north magnet centered over a coil to having the neighboring south pole centered over the coil, then it takes one half of a second for the transition in the second case.  Since the induced voltage according to Faraday's Law depends inversely on the time in which it takes for the flux to change (reverses in both cases), we need to change the analysis.  In the second case the flux change is half of the first case, but the time for the change is also half of the first case.  So, we get for a single coil that the voltage would be 0.68 times that of the 2 inch square magnets.  But we have twice as many coils per phase, so, we find the voltage would be 1.36 times as great for the second.

Now, we clearly have less of that "dead" copper in the second case and more voltage.  But we also have more turns of wire.  I think we need to look at one more case.  That is where we go from the 12 two inch square magnets to 24 magnets that are square and 1.414 inches on a side (2 square inches of area versus 4 originally).  The total amount of copper is the same.  So, in the second case we still find a total area of the coils of 4.5 square inches.  The coils are square and 2.12 inches on a side.  We find the width of a leg of the coil to now be .35 inches.  This gives 70% as many turns as the 3 by 3 coils.  The voltage per phase will now be 1.4 times as great as for the 2 by 2 magnets.  It's essentially the same as for the case of the rectangular magnets having 2 square inch area.  But in this case the percentage of "dead" copper has not changed.  It remains at 50%.  This should also satisfy Jacquesm's suggestion.

So, the amount of "dead" copper is not important.  What is important is the number of turns of wire and the strength of the magnets.  The voltage ratios we're talking about here involve the average voltage.  And my original assertion still holds.  There is really no such thing as "dead" copper.    
GeoM



Re: The "Dead" Copper Myth. (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Flux on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 09:54:21 AM MST

I agree with you that the dead copper thing is a myth. For years I have tried to get people to forget that E=BLv equation that throws up this misconception.

As for the absolute details of various arrangements then there are too many variables to really come to a real conclusion.

As long as you choose reasonable proportions in terms of rotor diameter magnet spacing and coil size then there will not be a lot of difference whether you choose square or rectangular magnets. In terms of least length of wire then round magnets may prove to be best but there are other factors that distort the picture beyond what I can predict.

The axial is at several disadvantages compared with a radial as far as effective use of copper goes but it does make for easy, non critical manufacture and gives you a good get out when you get things wrong. The radial does tie you to precise and not easily alterable air gaps.

Yes for forget the dead copper and you can turn rectangular magnets the other way round with no disadvantage if you can live with a larger disc. Hugh did this on the small machine I suspect because there was too little room at the centre of the early machine for a conventional hub.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: The "Dead" Copper Myth. (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by DanB on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 12:56:48 PM MST

I reset the time stamp on this posting because I think it's interesting and I'm still a bit bewildered.  Flux.. do you think the results of my test (posted above) are flawed...  or is there something else I'm missing?  

I may have some misconceptions about this stuff but to me - in my mind keeping a nice ratio of copper that's actually producing power to copper thats outside the path of the moving magnetic field has always seemed important.

Trying to get my mind around this I did a simpler test today with a scope and a single strand of wire (the output showed up nicely).  It's clear that the voltage induced in the wire that's perpendicular to the magnets is significant.  Even with magnets sideways on the rotor (like Hugh Piggott put them on that 6' machine) the voltage induced in the small bit of wire perpendicular to the magnets was at least twice that of the long piece that was parallel to the rotation of the magnets.  And.. I expect that in a more proper setup with dual rotors there would've been almost nothing induced in the parallel wire.

I'm looking forward to more discussion on this hopefully.  I know that with many things its possible to have serious misconceptions about things and still come up with stuff that works (kind of like Aether and radio waves...).

[ Parent ]



Re: The "Dead" Copper Myth. (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by DanB on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 01:07:50 PM MST

To follow up a bit...  I guess my thinking (which may be wrong) is that... while Hughs 6' alternator that has the magnets on sideways might be a good match for it's blades, I think it would be quite a lot more powerful if it had twice as many magnets - half as long spread over the same disk with smaller coils that had less 'dead copper'.  (so instead of 8 1" x 2" magnets, 16 1" x 1" magnets and 12 basically square (or round) coils.  I have a feeling that that arrangment, even if you used the same amount of copper would yeild lots more power at any given rpm.

[ Parent ]


Re: The "Dead" Copper Myth. (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Flux on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 02:28:24 PM MST

Dan this becomes very complicated.

Firstly I would like to bury this idea that coil sides at right angles to the motion generate the voltage and the end connections contribute nothing but resistance.

The basic equation for an emf induced in a wire moving at constant speed though a uniform field is E=Blv. Where B is the field strength, l is the length of the wire and v is the velocity. This a very special and almost useless case, you have to complete the circuit and in most real cases the return wire has an equal and opposite voltage induced in it so it doesn't work.

Although I have never thought of this before, it must be the basis of the homopolar generator. The simplest form is the Faraday disc machine and it needs a sliding contact to overcome the return connector problem. the same problem dogs all homopolar dc machines.

For the alternators that we think of it is much safer to consider the voltage to be proportional to the rate of change of flux. You are looking at flux linkage through a coil and all the conductor is actually necessary to complete the circuit and carry the current.

Looking at things at a very basic level the shape of the coil doesn't matter as long as all the flux is linked, in other words the hole is bigger than the magnet.

Sorting this lot out into a practical machine does cause a lot of confusion as there are so many variables. Let us forget any form of slotted iron core as that changes things far too much. If we stick to the air gap alternator we run into trouble as soon as we add turns side by side as the flux linkage then becomes progressive and we have a distributed winding which changes the waveform and alters the ratios between peak, rms and mean voltage. We also run into more trouble unless the coil leg width is equal to the space between magnets or less than it. If more then there is cancellation mixed up with the distribution and the emf is reduced.

Now add the complication that most of the methods we use doesn't put both coil legs in the magnet gap at the same time and you can see that changing any one factor will mess up the answers.

For a given shape and number of magnets there will be a geometry that gives the best compromise between voltage and circuit resistance and that will give most power at a given speed. If we fix one constraint such as disc diameter then we may benefit by changing the number, size or shape of the magnets while still maintaining the same magnet area.

If you take Hugh's machine with a given disc size with the magnets one way round you may reduce the output by turning the magnets round. The actual result will depend a lot on the type of winding. The 4/3 single layer winding is a totally odd thing and has no real commercial counterpart, it just works well , is easy to wind and suits the axial construction where overlapped coils are tricky except for very thin stators. It works best when the gap between magnets is about equal to the magnet width.

The conventional full pitched fully wound three phase winding works best when the gap is about half magnet width so that the third ( inactive) phase falls within the gap.

I am sure someone can do a computer programme to analyse all these variables but it is beyond me to do it. Working on voltage alone is completely useless, it has to also include coil resistance to find the optimum power out for each case.

I hope this helps, but it is not simple.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: The "Dead" Copper Myth. (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by willib on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 09:32:10 PM MST

I dont want to get dragged into this , but our esteemed guest from across the pond leaves me no choice.
i allready had a long discussion on the cancellation effects of coil dimensions (ie whether the hole should be larger than the magnet width ,the same size , or smaller

and i came to the conclusion that by experimentation, that the hole works well if it is equal to the distance between magnets, regardless of the magnet width.
because the voltage induced will only cancel out IF the hole is smaller than the distance between magnets, and the windings on the inside of the coil use less wire than at the perimeter therefore the resistance is less per unit voltage induced.


Carpe Ventum (seize the wind)
[ Parent ]



Re: The "Dead" Copper Myth. (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by oztules on Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 12:14:20 AM MST

Well Willib,

I have just come inside for a coffee after doing some tests myself on a new axial I'm playing with 24mags 50mmx10mm round mags. N45 17mm airgap 14" disk.
 I wound 1 coil as a wedge at 105turns.... 6.8v 100rpm center diam about 52mm Coil weight was 193 grams    15.4 turns per volt or 28grams of copper/volt ..1mm wire

 I wound 1 coil as a circle 52mm diameter  105 turns 7.0v 100rpm weight 157 grams 15turns/volt 24grams/volt ..1mm wire

 I wound 1 coil as a circle 44mm diam inner (smaller than the mags) 105 turns 5.9v 100rpm weight 130grams 17.8 turns/volt but 22grams per volt.  1mm wire

All with 1mm wire as a test coil.

It seems from this that although the straight wire of the wedge cuts the flux at right angles,compared to the circular coil, it's output was on a par with the circular one of the same inner diam.

 The smaller holed circle was lower in output as far as turns per volt were concerned, but was streets ahead of the wedge and slightly better than the correct (50mm) sized circle in terms of resistance per volt (grams of copper per volt) as the circle length was obviously shorter.

So at this stage of testing, a slightly undersized circular coil gives the best bounce per ounce of copper and so gives a lower resistance stator for the same volts out..

The real coils will be 1.8mm wire... so I have wound one of the smaller diam (44mm inner hole) with 110T  1.8mm wire.... voltage is 7.1 at 100rpm. 542 grams. I shall now uncoil it and wind the same piece of wire into a 50mm circle hole coil, test that, and  then a wedge to suit the 50mm magnets.

In other words whats the best shape and size for max Volts for 542 Grams of 1.8mm copper wire

What has all this got to do with dead copper??

I feel it is volts per gram of a given size wire that counts towards the lowest resistance stator. So between 22grams/volt and 28grams/volt there must be dead copper wire of differing amounts.

Doesn't look too flash for the wedge at this stage.

........oztules



[ Parent ]



Re: The "Dead" Copper Myth. (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by willib on Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 10:35:36 AM MST

Oz , if you like those results , try winding a coil with the hole the size of the distance between mags.

question , you are not using (1.716" -> 44mm ) between mags are you? i dont have my other program on this machine or i could tell you your distance between mags .
using this method results in a thinner stator of less resistance than a conventional one. if your mags arent crossing copper most of the time then your wasting space..


Carpe Ventum (seize the wind)
[ Parent ]



Re: The "Dead" Copper Myth. (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by Flux on Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 12:49:15 AM MST

Willib.

Perhaps it would be better not to use the term cancellation at all once we progress to coils with multiple turns. The effect of cancellation is much the same as not linking all the turns.

If you make the hole smaller than the magnet you can't link all the turns at the same time. This doesn't really matter as you will progressively manage to link each turn at some point and the effect is the same as distribution of a coil by not having all its turns at one point. It will almost certainly still continue to increase volts even if you wind it full with no hole at all. it again will change the waveform and most likely up to a point it will make things more of a sine wave, which at least makes the other equations apply more accurately.

Also the centre of the coil has short turns and contributes far less resistance so there is no harm in winding smaller. I see no reason to carry this to the radial dimension ( for round magnets it would probably be better to make coils elliptical)  but then you still have magnet shape and spacing to mess things up.

Not only do you have to worry about the hole in relation to magnet size, the position of the mean line of the coil in relation to the pole pitch also has an effect. All these 4/3 type windings are short pitched compared with a conventional winding with coil mean line spaced on the pole pitch.Flux leaves on magnet and returns via another, the total flux linking the coil is what matters.

If what you find experimentally works best then that is the way to go. Too much maths here sometimes. Fine when it works but I don't like it when it doesn't agree with experiment.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: The "Dead" Copper Myth. (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by finnsawyer on Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 09:44:58 AM MST

I thought about responding to your original comment but didn't because there are too many unknowns.  The single loop passing over a single magnet may be the most definitive test if the magnet is placed in the middle of a fairly large rotor with the center always at a fixed radius.  We want the paths for the flux to always be equivalent thought obviously oriented differently geometrically in the different cases.  I think the important thing to compare is the total voltage from the loop, not the various legs.  Another factor to consider in this simple case is the fact that the loop moves more quickly across the magnet when both have the long sides oriented radially than when they are oriented circumferentially.  That is, at the same RPM.  You need to take this time difference into account when comparing the voltages.  So, even in this simple case the complexities that Flux mentions start creeping in.  And by the way, Flux, you have a lot more patience than I do.

GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: The "Dead" Copper Myth. (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by scoraigwind on Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 04:39:10 PM MST

A lot of different and interesting perspectives here.  

One way to look at it is that with a given flux density the radial legs will produce the same flux regardless of pole width, so we should make the poles very narrow (keeping diameter, magnet weight etc constant) so as to reduce the 'dead' copper at the ends.  But narrow magnets suffer from a lot more leakage, so no free lunch there.

The way I think about the coil is not so much in terms of parts that are cutting flux and parts that are 'wasted' but in terms of the flux the whole coil can contain. If I can contain the magnet with the coil and avoid overlapping another magnet, then I do not so much care if the coil is the right way (usual way) around or sideways.  In the case of 8 magnets you can fit the thing together either way.  If the magnets are sideways it gives a lot more space at the centre to allow you to mount the second rotor.

I built a 'sideways' alternator a couple of weeks ago and purposefully looked at the waveform.  It was quite sawtoothed for the individual coils but the star (wye) connection gave a pretty good sine wave.  Funny - I expected a flat top wave from one coil.  Output was about what I expected based on magnets the usual way round.

I found the experiment with the volts/gram of copper very interesting and it highlights the virtue of undersized coils - maybe more powerful than they look and also filling up the holes in the stator which are 'dead' space in the air gap.
Hugh Piggott http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk



Re: The "Dead" Copper Myth. (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by finnsawyer on Wed Oct 17, 2007 at 09:05:49 AM MST

Turning the magnets and coils "sideways" so their long sides are parallel to the rotor rim would require a larger rotor to fit everything in.  But presumably you would still have the same time for a coil to go from being centered on one magnet to the next.  So, the average voltage would be the same if the change in magnetic flux is the same.  But it need not be.  When the magnets are sideways the channel for the magnetic flux is about 1/2 of that for the normal case.  This would mean a higher reluctance in those paths and possibly less flux.  Still, your results would seem to indicate that it didn't make any substantial difference.  Am I interpreting your comments correctly?

Note to Admin:  I guess you people have no sense of humor.  You try to set up a sight gag and you squash it.  Wonderful!  And how much bandwidth did it take anyway, for a picture (worth a thousand words) and a few words.  Bah, Humbug!
GeoM
[ Parent ]



Re: The "Dead" Copper Myth. (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by TomW on Wed Oct 17, 2007 at 09:48:33 AM MST


Note to Admin:  I guess you people have no sense of humor.  You try to set up a sight gag and you squash it.  Wonderful!  And how much bandwidth did it take anyway, for a picture (worth a thousand words) and a few words.  Bah, Humbug!

Well, excuse me, did you ever notice the Diaries section? That is where that off the wall stuff belongs, in case you still don't "get" it.

I know you are a legend in your own mind, but you cannot blame me for your obvious lack of understanding of how things work here.

Now, when you get your alt built, be sure and post pictures of that under "Wind", however.

phhhtt.

[ Parent ]



Re: The "Dead" Copper Myth. (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by finnsawyer on Thu Oct 18, 2007 at 08:49:22 AM MST

It's funny isn't it.  You tell me to put it in a diary as though that would make everything right, but the proposed alternator design is in a diary and I get raked over the coals anyway.  There seems to be an inconsistency in your thinking.

As far as the drum is concerned, it is from a magnetic separator and contains powerful magnets on the inner drum.  We don't know currently what the shape of the magnets would be or whether they are removable.  If you encounter such a drum somewhere it might pay to check it out.  Here's the banned picture.  The end plates are (theoretically) removable.

   


GeoM
[ Parent ]



The "Dead" Copper Myth. | 19 comments (19 topical)
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