Go to Otherpower.com Home Page Go to Forcefield Shopping Cart Go to Wondermagnet.com Home Page
Front Page - [Homebrewed Electricity-- (wind) (solar) (hydro) (steam) (controls) (storage) (mechanical)] - Classifieds - Site News
Everything - Newbies - [Remote Living-- (housing) (heat) (light) (water)] - Rants & Opinion - Diaries - Our Products
14 inch Axial Flux Listeroid Part 2


By electronbaby, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 02:14:40 AM MST
14"axial flux MPPT




see, no air bubbles. I used ATH and vinyl ester for these.




I wound the stator up using 29 turns of # 14 wire. Its wound 4 in hand. Its wound for 48v but I have a 24v system. I might be changing out inverters soon and I wanted something I could use in the future. 1500 watts was an acceptable amount of power for me, so I figured I would try an MPPT controller and buck down to where I needed the final output voltage. This makes the stator super efficient. more about this later.




Used brass lugs on this one. ran out of crimps that fit 4 #14 wires. This worked. 2 in each hole.



Its ready to be cast.




Mixed up some vinyl ester and ATH.




Heres how it came out. Pretty nice. Im holding it on with some magnets so I can get the dimentions for the stator mounting bolts and the brackets I have to weld on. Making sure everything is centered pretty well.




Here it is all mounted.



Here you can see the radiator that will eventually be run to the shop with insulated lines. I just hung it up for now. The alternator hums slightly when its running, you can just pick it out if you listen carefully.




Im bringing in the power 3 phase wye (similar voltage to DanB (he has a 48 v system). It enters the 3 phase rectifier on top. it exits pulsating DC. It is then filtered (to get the ripple out) by 6 electrolytics. 4200uF @ 350v limit (I just had these handy). The voltage were seeing is around 62 volts @ 600 rpm.  The MX60 is to the right. I have LOTS of playing to do with this. Im attempting to mess with the programming a little. Im pretty sure it does good as it is with alot of the PV settings still in there.




Maxing out the MX60, it runs most happy below 650rpm. Here I have it turned down to 604rpm. Ive had it as low as 380rpm and it still worked but it isnt as efficient and puts more stress on the cotroller because the voltage isnt as high at this low RPM. Like I said, lots of playing to do. It will be interesting to see the fuel usage comparisons with DanB maybe  :-) The alternator is pretty powerful and I have a feeling it will do better than 2kW, but unfortunately is limited by the 60A the MX60 will pass. If I convert to 48v, Im sure it will do better than 2kW.

more later.

Have Fun!!!
Roy R


Roy, had to remove the " and replace with inch to avoid the 50 word limit in title bug that prevents replies if you use punctuation in the title in both posts. Nice looking stuff, too.
14 inch Axial Flux Listeroid Part 2 | 20 comments (20 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: 14 inch Axial Flux Listeroid Part 2 (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by ghurd on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 08:47:21 PM MST
(User Info)

Very nice.  Amazing to me what someone can do...
Nice touch with the radiator.
G-



Re: 14 inch Axial Flux Listeroid Part 2 (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Boss (brians.outfit(at)gmail.com) on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 09:12:04 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.outfitnm.com

Stunning craftsmanship
Very impressive
thanks for sharing
Brian Rodgers



Re: 14 inch Axial Flux Listeroid Part 2 (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by electronbaby (roy<at>windsine.org) on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 09:48:31 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.windsine.org

Thanks :-)




shot of the MX display. current on left is current leaving the alternator. current on right is current entering the batteries.

forgot to include this in the original post.

I also have to work on my fuel tank mounts haha

Have Fun!! RoyR KB2UHF



Re: 14 inch Axial Flux Listeroid Part 2 (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by sPuDd on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 12:13:36 AM MST
(User Info) Atherton Qld Australia

G'day Electronbaby,
That's a sweeeet setup you've got there. I'm envious of the
ready access the US guys have to such equipment. Its helped
spur my thoughts into doing a combo 48V/240V Listeroid system.

One thing that worries me is the upside down rotor casting.
Won't the air pocket now be all around the rotor plate surface?
Where the resin needs to bond with the steel. Or did you do a
tricky vent/fill hole at the top?

Christmas in Oz

sPuDd..




Re: 14 inch Axial Flux Listeroid Part 2 (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by electronbaby (roy<at>windsine.org) on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 06:29:36 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.windsine.org

sPuDd,

Im sure there are some very small bubbles, but not many. I sort of mix till its a little thick and pour in more than I need. It is tapped and poked to get all the bubbles out. This is done right side up. Then the cover is placed on and the excess allowed to escape. It actually comes oozing out when the magnets are applied to the cover. This holds everything on pretty tight. Then you turn it upside down. It stays this way till it cures. I know Dan has been using polyethylene plastic sheeting to make his molds. I think that allows you to not use any release agent. Ive still been using wood. :-P
Have Fun!! RoyR KB2UHF
[ Parent ]



Re: 14 inch Axial Flux Listeroid Part 2 (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 07:49:56 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

Nicely done Roy.  I wonder why you're not really getting a solid 2KW - its basically the same as mine except larger in diameter.  I expect you have a bit more wire in there (higher resistance) but you have better spacing between the magnets and an MPPT controller, I would expect better.

I measured my fuel consumption - at this time, after shoring up the line (it used to be long and thin) I get about 7.5kWh / gallon after rectifier losses.

How well does the radiator work for you cooling that engine?  I have one about the same size I've been planning to install and have wondered if that would be enough to cool the engine.



Re: 14 inch Axial Flux Listeroid Part 2 (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Flux on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 08:34:12 AM MST
(User Info)

Nice job.

Seems to be working well, the MX60 is the limiting factor at present but 60A is pretty respectable.  Be interesting to see how the specific fuel consumption changes with load. I doubt that you are loosing much economy by running under full load.

Not sure how those engines work out, Listers were not at the top of the list for fuel economy and I have no idea what has been changed on these copies. Certainly you will do far better than a belt driven conventional wound field alternator.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: 14 inch Axial Flux Listeroid Part 2 (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by wdyasq on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 08:42:18 AM MST
(User Info)

Gee Dan,

I get you are burning a gallon of fuel every 4 hours or so. Diesel is ~135k BTU a gallon - so heat rejection is that, less exhaust heat,less electrical production ...

And, the size radiator he used looks to be the size used on 30hp tractors. I think it is within the abilities of the radiator.I think a heater core would work.

Ron
Adventure is just bad planning." -- Roald Amundsen
[ Parent ]



Re: 14 inch Axial Flux Listeroid Part 2 (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 08:51:04 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

Hi Ron-  yes, that's about right, a gallon in 3-4 hours.  I figure I'm getting about 18% of the energy available in the diesel which I don't think is too bad.  Seems like many modern diesel generators claim to get about 11 kWh from a gallon of fuel.

[ Parent ]


Re: 14 inch Axial Flux Listeroid Part 2 (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by harrie on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 10:32:10 AM MST
(User Info)

Wow, what a sweet setup.Very nice work.



Re: 14 inch Axial Flux Listeroid Part 2 (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by electronbaby (roy<at>windsine.org) on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 01:26:08 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.windsine.org

Yes i agree Dan. I will measure fuel consumption soon.

The radiator Im using is a cast iron radiator. It measures roughly 24" wide, 24" tall and 6 " deep.  The coolant volume (including the lines) is roughly 3.25 gallons. Im using EG (50% water) for coolant. It works well. It might be slightly overkill for what Im doing, but further experimentation brings more power output so Im sure its suited well. Im sure it would work fine in your case.

Im only getting 1.6kw max. This is because the MX60 will limit near 1600watts. Short of custom designing an MPPT from scratch that will handle 120A @ 28v, this is what im stuck with. plenty of room to play around. 2 MX's could be used if there was some isolation done in the stator. Maybe if it was wound for 6 phase, but split at the neutral (2 x 3 phase). This would allow for feeding of 2 MX's without coupling of the input. You CANNOT COUPLE THE INPUT of the MPPT controllers. boB when you coming out with the Classic!!???  (hehe)

Im sure even with 1.6kW out, it will rival most generators in good fuel consumption. I can run it forever at 1.6kW and the stator will stay ice cold. I have slightly more copper than you, but it is of a bigger guage (#14 x 4 in hand). Im running into the MX at approx 72 VOC and when in operation, it drops to 62v under load. Again, the caps help take out the ripple.

I spent the day verifying that the MX numbers on the screen matched what was actually coming in and out of it. Measured with my Flukes, its pretty damn close. I will use the KWH/Ah logging features and match them against fuel consumption data soon.  I also happened to plug up the injector pump with crap that must have been in the tank when I bought it. I disassembled and its back running now. make sure you change out the stock fuel filters. they all suck.
Have Fun!! RoyR KB2UHF



Re: 14 inch Axial Flux Listeroid Part 2 (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by boB on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 07:50:22 PM MST
(User Info) http://bob.gudgel.org


So Roy...  Crank up the MX60's current limit to 70 Amps if you are maxing it out.

It should still run fairly cool at this low of an input voltage.

boB
K7IQ


[ Parent ]



Re: 14 inch Axial Flux Listeroid Part 2 (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by electronbaby (roy<at>windsine.org) on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 09:09:35 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.windsine.org

Ill see what I can do. Ill keep you posted

thanks

:-)
Have Fun!! RoyR KB2UHF
[ Parent ]



Re: 14 inch Axial Flux Listeroid Part 2 (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 07:54:39 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

Hi Roy -

'Yes i agree Dan. I will measure fuel consumption soon.'

Im curious to hear your results....  Im going to do that with my steam engine this week I think.

'The radiator Im using is a cast iron radiator. It measures roughly 24" wide, 24" tall and 6 " deep.  The coolant volume (including the lines) is roughly 3.25 gallons. Im using EG (50% water) for coolant. It works well. It might be slightly overkill for what Im doing, but further experimentation brings more power output so Im sure its suited well. Im sure it would work fine in your case.'

I'm surprised such a small one does the job - nice to hear.  I have a tiny one like that but didn't think it was big enough and got a much larger one.  Ill likely try the small one first now.  Im going to install it in the shop/try to capture a little heat.

'Im only getting 1.6kw max. This is because the MX60 will limit near 1600watts. Short of custom designing an MPPT from scratch that will handle 120A @ 28v, this is what im stuck with. plenty of room to play around. 2 MX's could be used if there was some isolation done in the stator. Maybe if it was wound for 6 phase, but split at the neutral (2 x 3 phase). This would allow for feeding of 2 MX's without coupling of the input. You CANNOT COUPLE THE INPUT of the MPPT controllers. boB when you coming out with the Classic!!???  (hehe)'

What you're doing seems to work well but I have to question the logic in using the MX60 in this application.  It seems like - if you get the alternator right.. there would be no room for improvement using an MPPT controller (and they're expensive and they limit you to 60 amps).  

'Im sure even with 1.6kW out, it will rival most generators in good fuel consumption.'

Yes, I expect you are running quite efficiently.   The thing that will be hard to get over is the simple fact that it's a fairly antique design with pretty low compression - I don't think the listeroids are quite as efficient as a lot of newer engines.  Theyre not bad though.

 'I can run it forever at 1.6kW and the stator will stay ice cold.'

Yes, mine is that way too.  Last time I ran it it was not 'ice cold' but it was about 90 deg if I recall.  (it was about 40 - 50 outside)

 'I have slightly more copper than you, but it is of a bigger guage (#14 x 4 in hand). Im running into the MX at approx 72 VOC and when in operation, it drops to 62v under load. Again, the caps help take out the ripple.'

I would love to see what sort of power/efficiency you get if you fed that directly into a 48V battery bank..

[ Parent ]



Re: 14 inch Axial Flux Listeroid Part 2 (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by electronbaby (roy<at>windsine.org) on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 09:07:32 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.windsine.org

the only reason for the MX is that I have a 24v bank. I might be switching soon though. Im using the MX for the buck feature.

Ive noticed absolutely NO temp increase in the alternator when in operation. Ive ran it now for hours on end at full 1500w output. It does get a fair bit of air movement around it however, simply because of the rather "fast" speed of this engine. Most of us axial flux guys are used to rpm's close to 100-150 rpm. (haha)

I will do some fuel comparisons soon. im curious to see if i match your figures, but i dont think so, being the diesels like to be under more of a load. We shall see.  :-)

Have Fun!! RoyR KB2UHF
[ Parent ]



Re: 14 inch Axial Flux Listeroid Part 2 (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by BigBreaker on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 09:29:58 AM MST
(User Info)

It might be worth building your own buck converter.  There are a few different topologies but I believe one uses caps for the energy storage unit, caps you already have.  That would free up your MX60 and eliminate the current limits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_converter

[ Parent ]



Re: 14 inch Axial Flux Listeroid Part 2 (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 10:20:51 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

Hi Roy -

'the only reason for the MX is that I have a 24v bank. I might be switching soon though. Im using the MX for the buck feature.'

yes, it'd be nice for you to switch, I bet youll be building a larger wind turbine soon anyhow ;-)

'Ive noticed absolutely NO temp increase in the alternator when in operation. Ive ran it now for hours on end at full 1500w output. It does get a fair bit of air movement around it however, simply because of the rather "fast" speed of this engine. Most of us axial flux guys are used to rpm's close to 100-150 rpm. (haha)'

No - Im not surprised, with 4 strands of 14 gage wire, running at that voltage and current it must be incredibly efficient.  I expect mine is close to 90%, yours must be much better!  I use an infared thermometer to check my stator temp, it makes life easy.

'I will do some fuel comparisons soon. im curious to see if i match your figures, but i dont think so, being the diesels like to be under more of a load. We shall see.  :-)'

It will be fun to hear your results!


[ Parent ]



Re: 14 inch Axial Flux Listeroid Part 2 (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by marv (windtamer@hotmail.com) on Tue Jan 1st, 2008 at 08:20:48 AM MST
(User Info)

Nice work Roy!  I'm curious about the noise of the listeroid?

Can you describe how loud it would be from close up, or from
a distance. I have about 250 feet from my shop thru trees to
the house. So would it be heard in or around the house?

Are you planning on running this on used vegetable oil or bio diesel?

again nice work.
Marv



Re: 14 inch Axial Flux Listeroid Part 2 (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by Shadow on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 08:53:13 AM MST
(User Info)

I have a Listeroid about 300 feet from the house, I was using a muffler off a 89 or 90 Ford truck. On the doorstep it sounded like a heartbeat off in the distance. I was having carbon issues from burning Veg oil so I knocked the muffler off and went with 2 inch straight pipe.It was not even noticable at the house! If the wind is right you can hear it but its still just a quiet thump....thump.

[ Parent ]


Re: 14 inch Axial Flux Listeroid Part 2 (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by electronbaby (roy<at>windsine.org) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 02:57:30 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.windsine.org

yes, they are not that noisy. kinda cool to listen to. Mine is located 15 feet from the shop under an awning I built. Im using a automotive muffler too, although it probably came off of a small to mid size car.  Its not the exhaust note im concerned about as you can hear the valve and rocker noise. I cant really complain however, overall they sound really cool. I might try playing around with the small propane tank mufflers people make. Im pretty sure the noise that it DOES make, is trapped under the awning and therefor is pretty noticeable up close.
Have Fun!! RoyR KB2UHF


14 inch Axial Flux Listeroid Part 2 | 20 comments (20 topical, 0 editorial)
Display: Sort:
Menu
· create account
· How to use the board
· FAQs
· search the board
· Google search the board
· Old Otherpower Board

Login
Make a new account
Username:
Password:

Total Views
  282 Scoop users have viewed this posting.

Related Links
· magnet
· Also by electronbaby

Powered by Scoop
You must be a registered user to post here. It's easy and free, and the link is on the upper right side of your page.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Postings are owned by the poster, but may be deleted or moved at the ADMIN's sole discretion. The Rest © 2003 Forcefield.
You can Email the board ADMIN here. PLEASE include the username you signed up with!