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The hidden cost of wind turbines


By wdyasq, Section Rants & Opinion
Posted on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 03:06:42 AM MST
I just find 'um

 http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/mg19125591.600

Ducking and hiding,

Ron

The hidden cost of wind turbines | 14 comments (14 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: The hidden cost of wind turbines (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by richhagen (richhagen (a t) Juno.com) on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 09:27:05 PM MST
(User Info)

Hmm, I'll bite -

Mark Avery, conservation director for the UK's Royal Society for the Protection of Birds. "In the meantime, though, there is an alternative to building huge wind farms in vulnerable habitats. We could all install our own personal turbines on the roofs of our houses. I do believe that micro-generation has an important part to play," Lindsay says.

One thing I've found is that the economy of scale comes into play in that the larger turbines are cheaper per watt.  I also think it is easier to maintain the efficiency of the machines in a commercial wind farm, than it would be for a vastly larger number of smaller machines situated in every ones yard.  I can't see most ordinary folks doing much to maintain renewable energy generation on their property.  The home based wind turbines would need to be too massive if they were to make up a significant percentage of most folks current consumption for most urban and suburban homes.  Also, since smaller residential turbines would be at the lower elevations and less ideal locations, the swept area would have to be larger for the same power generation. I don't think that would actually be better for birds, which seems to be Mr. Avery's main concern.  I actually think wind turbines, and wind farms will get larger in coming years because of better materials, engineering, and the better economics.  Until they can be used to replace baseline power stations, which without some type of massive energy storage won't be possible, their role in the power grid will be limited to a small percentage of electricity production.  

The artical also doesn't mention the environmental impact of siting for other types of power generation, or of the mining of materials used for them.  To evaluate the best options, one would need a proper comparison of reasonable options.  A proper comparison would have to take into account those impacts as well.  The only way to actually have no environmental impact would be to not be on the planet.  I'm not ready to leave just yet.  Rich

'A Joule saved is a Joule made'



Re: The hidden cost of wind turbines (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Norm (peppysue@suite224.net) on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 10:00:01 PM MST
(User Info)

My thoughts about large scale windmills as oppossed  to small scale.
It's true that large scale is more efficient,
those that are on the grid moan and complain,
but most keep using the stuff something like
3 or 4 times more than those that are making their own ?
 Sometimes I think the prices ought to go up
if it would get people to start conserving.
     ( :>) Norm
( :>) Norm


Re: The hidden cost of wind turbines (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by ShadeTree on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 06:46:59 AM MST
(User Info)

Hi Norm,  

   ""Sometimes I think the prices ought
to go up if it would get people to start
conserving.""

This is sumthin that has irritated me to
no end for years around these parts,
i pay 4 cents more per KWh because i use
LESS energy. i am punished for conserving.

ain't never made sense to me, "they" preech
conservation, saving energy then turn around
and stick it to ya if you do,

ShadeTree
.
"Ya learn sumthin everyday, ya store up smart." -Festus Hagen-
[ Parent ]



Re: The hidden cost of wind turbines (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by bparks (bparks funny 'at' sign gmail dawt com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 06:24:31 PM MST
(User Info)

Same thing happened in California when they were trying really hard to get people to conserve water.  People were used so much less water that the water department was suddenly underfunded, so they raised rates.  Nice.

[ Parent ]


Re: The hidden cost of wind turbines (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by finnsawyer on Sat Feb 3rd, 2007 at 08:57:10 AM MST
(User Info)

Well, don't despair.  I saw a program about a simple type of pressure regeneration pump (my words) that improves the efficiency of desalination to such an extent that they figure it will cost no more to desalinate ocean water in L.A. as it does to pipe the water from the Colorado River.  So, there is always hope, even for the energy conundrum.
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: The hidden cost of wind turbines (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by maker of toys on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 03:06:51 AM MST
(User Info)

another in a long line of articles that prove that no one 'gets it'

living causes death. fact of life, if you'll excuse the pun. statistically speaking, everything currently living has a 100% chance of dieing at least once in its/their life. (death being defined here as the cessation of detectable metabolic activity.)

what people who tend to rant in the media about environmental subjects (or anthing else, for that manner) tend to convieniently forget is paul harvey's famous 'rest of the story'

windmills kill birds, at a statisically uncertain rate for reasons that are not entirely clear to me.  Apparently, they now kill fish, too. . . and some people say they're noisy.

Yeah, so?  Hydroplants kill fish, destroy spawning grounds, and probably drown the occasional duck, too. grid powerlines buzz, kill raptors and radiate low levels of EMI (with uncertain but probably negligable effects beyond the surface of the conductor), cars kill songbirds and the occasional raptor plus all sorts of marine life with the stuff they leak into sewers, regardless of motive power. . . tide generators, besides limited potential,  have the same drawbacks as hydro, plus they slow the earth's rotation, with unknown long-term climactic effects. (they may be useful against storm-surge; an advantage not to be sneezed at after what happened to new orleans.)

Coal plants. . . Oh, boy, let's not get me started on those. . . suffice it to say, they are responsible for a majority of existing and historical radioactive contamination (handily edging out the weapons tests, TMI, and the chernobyl FUBAR combined by virtue of 2+ more centuries of pollution), sulfur dioxide poisoning (trees, birds, fish), greenhouse emissions (generally accepted as bad, full effects not yet known),  environmental mercury poisoning (birds and fish again, plus cattle and humans), steam burns and other industrial accidents, strip mining (and ITS associated environmental costs in fish, birds and human suffering), coal-dust-induced asthma and fly ash disposal problems. if you count the rail traffic to move the coal, you add noise pollution, grade-crossing accidents, diesel emissions, and the occasional wild-fire from overheated brakes. then there are the direct kills from the condensors. . . fish and shell-fish by the (litteral) wheelbarrow load.
Whew!

Oil- almost but not quite as bad as coal, but harder on oceanic life. but there are much better things to do with oil than burn it as fuel. . . like use it as a feedstock for almost every activity known to man, and as a lubricant and wear surface for whatever primary transportation power source replaces it.  (vulcanised fossil-source rubber wears much better than the latex varieties that were originally used for tires and other pnuematic devices. . . .and while castor oil has its uses, it's not up to a 15000 mile change interval.)

Gas; this could be methane, propane, butane or a combination there-of.  probably the best combustion 'primary sources' environmentally speaking, but you're still dealing with well-drilling and greenhouse emissions. . . plus the effluent from scrubbing 'sour' gas in those places where there isn't any other sort of gas to use.

Nuclear-  
Fission is not too bad at point-of-conversion (the reactor site) but has a bad record in mining, and in the US at least, the waste disposal problem is severe. (part of that is political mandates to not reprocess the fuel like most other nuclear nations do)  Add to that its association with nuclear weapons, and you have quite an image problem on top of your environmental costs. . . . though it's interesting to note that something like 7% of the USA's total electric power consumption over the past decade has been fueled by dismantled soviet warheads, with a few american ones thrown in for spice.  I can hardly stand the irony. . . . though seeing as their rockets saved the so-called 'International Space Station' while we grounded the shuttle because the 'environmentally freindly' foam insualtion wouldn't stay on the external tank, I suppose the books balance.

Fusion?  it's been 'twenty years from commercialization for the past fourty years' as one report I read ten years ago put it. The US has staked its hopes on the 'inertial confinement' technique (personally I'm not sanguine on the commercial potential of that method) while the rest of the world (with very minor US help) has chosen to pursue magnetic confinement;  the experimental reactor (ITER) that is hoped to be the last research machine before we learn enough to build a commercial fusor is under construction in europe (france?)
Once we DO commercialize fusion, we'll be dealing with tritium, which is slippery stuff, and quite bio-radiologically damaging if inhaled. . . and there will be inhalation accidents.  Plus there will be failed/damaged reactor components to dispose of (but that waste-stream is expected to be MUCH smaller than the current fission waste-streams.)  the good news is the likely atmospheric releases/discharges will either be helium or hydrogen, and will tend to stay near the top of the atmosphere, where there isn't much in the way of wild-life or civilization for it to threaten. But fusiuon is still '20 years away'. 'nuff said.

bio-source fuels. leaving aside the unresolved question of 'gain' (how much harvested energy (of whatever type) you need to plow back to get a harvested unit), biofuels will compete for arable land with other uses. . . food and recreation, as examples.

so that leaves, what. . . pedal generators and geothermal?!?. . . . repetitive injuries, heart attacks and domestic disputes, vs limited availability, hydrogen sulfide hazards, all the troubles of grid distribution, and the difficulty of disposing of acidic, sulfur-laden water.

or we could turn out the lights, forget how to make fire and tools, and try really, really hard to grow body hair. (

on balance, I'd say that a few birds/bats/fish that were going to die anyway are a pretty small price to pay.  at least it was quick. . .

and earplugs are cheap.

-Dan
(the forgoing explains the following)


It's not a case of 'Save the planet,' it's a case of 'Save the humans.'



Re: The hidden cost of wind turbines (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Bruce S (bruce(dot)stahl <at>gmail (dot)(com)) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 11:13:15 AM MST
(User Info)

Maker of Toys;
    I would say that about sums it up for me too.
I have like your sig for some time now and have used it during discussions with so-called experts.
I get a laugh and they still don't get it.
Full-discloser on this, I have not read nor loaded up the link, however, I will say your discertation was spot on!
IMHO of course
Cheers
Bruce S
 

[ Parent ]


Re: The hidden cost of wind turbines (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by bob golding (photoman290 at yahoo dot com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 02:00:33 PM MST
(User Info)

have to concure with all of that. you  forgot the new  breed of peltiers. up to 80% effiecient in the lab, still in the lab at the moment,just waiting for that killer  app to  get them up to production. this will have to come from nasa or the us  milatary from  what i have heard. to follow  progress on this have a look at power chips or cool chips on google. i have been following this  technology for around 4 years. think we will be waiting a while longer  but should be worth it. should work well with  geothermal,and cut out the  toxic water problems. a company  here in cornwall is using an old tin mine to extract energy using heat pumps.that haqs to be good news.

bob golding

[ Parent ]



Re: The hidden cost of wind turbines (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by finnsawyer on Fri Feb 2nd, 2007 at 08:52:10 AM MST
(User Info)

So, the whole thing comes down to making our lives as good as we can before we die.  What I call "Quality of life".  For that we need ample electricity and energy.  An ample supply of energy means we can deal with all the issues that affect our everyday lives from reducing pollution (and maybe CO2) to providing better medical care or simply going for a ride in the country.  Since electricity can be converted to other forms of energy, the only way to really increase the available supply economically is via nuclear power, and you kind shoot down some of the myths related to it.  Nuclear, of course, does not produce CO2.  There has been suggested a process for coal powered generation where the coal is used to make coal gas and carbon monoxide.  Presumably, the carbon monoxide is converted to CO2 and then pumped deep underground.  Well, don't know about that.  Anyway, the users of this site seem to feel that their quality of life is enhanced by generating their own power.  The more power to them!
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: The hidden cost of wind turbines (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by davewheeling on Wed Feb 14th, 2007 at 04:49:30 AM MST
(User Info)


The Ocean is already acting like a giant CO2 sponge for us but some scientists are wondering how much more it can take before it begins to "Burp" and/or die.

The lowering of the Oceans pH and death of the Oceans may very well turn out to be
a greater (and quicker) risk to Man's demise than Global Warming itself.
We may have our eye on the wrong ball - in the shorter term.

You can pull up plenty on the Internet. Some Universities don't give it much past 2035 - 2045 but admit that they are into uncharted territory and it could be worse than that. It's not just CO2, but that's a big part of the problem.

That same carbonic acid is ruining peoples health in carbonated beverages.

Compared to the Ocean the Rain Forest is minor league for oxygen production.
Not to mention food supply

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Oceans+lowering+pH&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei =UTF-8

Dave

[ Parent ]



Re: The hidden cost of wind turbines (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by maker of toys on Fri Feb 2nd, 2007 at 03:22:14 PM MST
(User Info)

Dang, I forgot to rip on solar, too.  We'll just leave it at: the sun don't always shine, the corrolation between semiconductor fabs and superfund sites, plus batteries, sulfuric acid, and lead pollution.  'nuf said.

Thanks for the kind words, guys. . .

IMHO, distributed generation is the way forward. . . . encourages more thought about what we consume, encourages people to learn a bit about the way the world works, and gives massive redundancy to prevent problems like the blackouts that seem to plauge the Northeast every generation or so. . . . plus it neatly avoids the discomfort of the california style rolling blackout.

(and Grid power lines are ugly . . .)

off to look up these new peltier devices . . .

-Dan


It's not a case of 'Save the planet,' it's a case of 'Save the humans.'
[ Parent ]



Re: The hidden cost of wind turbines (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by bob golding (photoman290 at yahoo dot com) on Sat Feb 3rd, 2007 at 07:07:55 AM MST
(User Info)

i watched a tv program the other week about enron. seems the blackouts in california were engineered by them to jack up the price of electricity. they were  shipping the output of the power stations to colorado,then selling it back  to california at a vast profit. when that didnt work they bribed the stations to  close down with some excuse like a breakdown. isnt the free market wonderfull.

bob golding

[ Parent ]



Re: The hidden cost of wind turbines (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by Brian H on Mon Feb 12th, 2007 at 06:01:47 PM MST
(User Info)

Dan,
 You're my favorite ranter.
Regards,
BrianH
"Remember, I'm pullin' for ya'! We're all in this together!" - Red Green
[ Parent ]


Re: The hidden cost of wind turbines (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Stonebrain on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 04:20:42 PM MST
(User Info)

Ron,
you're pointing a real issue

Northern Europe used to be covered with peat bogs.
There isn't much left of it.
Windowerplants could destroy what's left.
Very high costs not really hidden.
Even a bad co2 cipher.

I don't think that much of tower builders ask themselves:
What,if I want to get rid of that massive several cubic
meters towerfoundation.Costs will be much higher than
pouring the concrete.In reallity the block will be there..forever.
This is cost.

There is no energy without 'hidden' costs not even 'green' energy
That's why the mention 'green' is in many if not most cases misleading.

cheers,
stonebrain



The hidden cost of wind turbines | 14 comments (14 topical, 0 editorial)
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