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genny control


By libra, Section Controls
Posted on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 03:10:20 PM MST
Over speed control fo my genny

Hi All.
Wind temp is -45 today so no concern of my genny overheating.
My pic engineer is designing the ultimate controller for my genny, and he is asking questions that I can't answer.
To control overspeeding and possible burnout of my stator he is suggestion firing triacs at the zero current portion of the wild ac cycle.
While I understand zero current switching reduces heat and current in an electrical device is this doable and is there any advanatage to using this type of control in a genny?
Yes I do have a furling system however if I can also have another backup system so much the better.
Can anyone that understands these applicating offer suggestions and comments in an effort to help create this type of control.
Once again the objective is to have a control that will provide backup to the furling system and shut down the genny in extreem wind conditions.

Libra

genny control | 8 comments (8 topical)

Re: genny control (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Flux on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 08:29:58 AM MST

If you have a furling scheme that works you will not have overspeed or stator burn out as long as your batteries remain connected.

If you loose the connection to the battery then you will have overspeed. The best thing you can do under those circumstances is just stop it as long as your alternator is big enough to stop from any speed in any wind condition.

This can be done with triacs, thyristors or just a simple contactor. No need to mess with zero crossing for the few seconds that it takes to stop it.

There is no point under these conditions doing anything other than stop it, if the battery is disconnected there is no point in letting it run.

If you have some desire to load before the rectifier as a form of charge control then that is a different matter. If you want to struggle with triacs and all their dv/dt limitations that is your choice, another bridge and mosftes with pwm would be easier, but this would still be strictly a charge controller not a substitute for furling or any protection against over speed.

Flux




Re: genny control (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by libra on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 09:16:32 AM MST

ok flux   I guess i am seeing others that have burn't out their stator in freek winds or whatever and am trying to compensate for that by some sort of control.
If the tail furls proprerly, then most of the time there is no problem but I am trying to plan for the what if condition.
I have no plans other than this application.

Libra

[ Parent ]



Re: genny control (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Flux on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 09:48:44 AM MST

I understand your concern, but really the the choice is to make it furl properly or shut it down. There is not much chance of a backup scheme for overload. There is indeed a case for protecting from overspeed caused by a loss of load.

Let's think for a moment at the causes of those burn outs. The simplest case is believing something is furling when it isn't. I suspect this is more common than imagined. Someone sees a tail bent to say 20 deg on a modestly windy day and the thing is running near rating. They are happy, then the big wind comes and it actually furls properly at twice that current, result burn out.

Others have things furling properly but are totally unrealistic about what is a reasonable full load current. That machine may run for several years with the stator burnt out ( see Dan's new post about tractor tests). The significance will not occur until it actually fails.

There was another different case I seem to remember where a rather undersized alternator that did furl and work properly was shut down as a precaution in high wind.
The result was that the alternator was not powerful enough to hold the thing stopped and it started in the high wind and burnt out because it was running against a dead short.

If you must stop the thing you need an alternator that is sufficiently powerful to hold it stopped in any wind. That means a big alternator and one that is normally running on the verge of stall unless it has added line resistance.

you can of course opt for the scheme that Harrie and others have chosen and that is to use a monster alternator in relation to blade size and always work in stalled mode.

Stall hard enough with a gig enough alternator and it will never burn out in any wind without furling. The price you pay is a large and expensive alternator and very low performance in except the lowest winds. It would go crazy if load was lost and without some device to shut it down it may self destruct on over speed.

I hope this makes sense.
Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: genny control (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by libra on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 10:53:40 AM MST

Flux     Sure appreciate you taking the time and trouble.

I can see what your trying to get across. Controls won't help is the machine isn't set up properly.
The genny I built is 15' with a  14" diameter stator. I followed Dan's data with the genny that he made for his brother Matt.
Since this a homebrew machine there are no specs on the rated output (that I know of)
Since I don't let this machine run, other than when I can manually dump the excess power to protect the batteries I have seen 200w at low winds where a flag just flutters, at a brisk wind I've seen 40 plus amps (24v system) and the tail just starts to furl. In brisk winds with the 3 wires shorted the blades take about 10 seconds to make a revolution.
I would guess from my limited experience that this machine will produce 1.5kw which is enough, but maybe someone should do an article about fine tuning the furling system to match the genny. I'll look in the archives to see what I can find. I guess that its just that I put a lot of work into this machine and don't want it to fail for a stupid thing that i overlooked.
Would love to attend a weekend with you guys and absorb some of your experience

Libra

[ Parent ]



Re: genny control (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Flux on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 12:44:17 PM MST

I have had a look at the details and if it is a direct copy , with those magnets the I agree that it should be good for about 1500W.

It will certainly stop under any condition so you should be safe to try it in a high wind and see at what power it furls. If you think it is too high then you can just shut it down and reduce the tail weight when the weather is suitable.

You will probably find that it produces maximum power when the tail is at about 45 deg. Most of these type machines tend to reduce power in even higher winds so if it doesn't exceed 1500W you should be fine.

If you want to include some control scheme with a small resistor attached to a temperature sensor you could infer stator temperature from the temperature rise of that resistor.

You could perhaps decide that if the current was above say 60A for a period of say 20 mins then you would shut down until the wind dropped. By this time your batteries would probably be fully charged and you would be diverting load.

If proportioned correctly and with the same time constant as the stator the little series resistor would follow stator temperature. It would not be exact unless you measured true stator temperature and calibrated it, but even if you guessed at the operating point, the temperature rise with current squared would be so quick that you would have a good idea of overload. Perhaps you could just measure the shunt temperature and use that rather than using another series resistor.

You could combine this with overspeed protection which you could easily sense from excess ac volts or even measure frequency.

In any of the fault modes you detected you would then shut down, not try any form of loading.

If you have copied Dan then the furling should be near, but you may have some variation due to different tail materials and weight. Just check it in a good wind and adjust if you feel uncomfortable with the maximum output.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: genny control (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by libra on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 01:42:50 PM MST

I like your idea of monitoring the shunt temp. This would be easy to do and if calibrated in the spring time the two temps would be a close match. Wonder if we fed the output of a thermometor located on top of the tower, or even got a infared sensor gun. I don't know how to calibtate the stator temp to the shunt but lots if things to think about. What is the point of having all these computer sensors if we can't us them to our advantage?
Yes the magnets are the same that Dan used and the offset furl may be a bit more as Dan suggested I should want this to furl early.
The tail is 8 sq feet but may be a bit heavier as I used 3/8 material for the tail.

Anyway these are good suggestions and will be fun to follow up on

Libra

[ Parent ]



Re: genny control (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by jimjjnn on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 02:18:54 PM MST

We used to calibrate resistors by using a small fine metal file to shave the resistor in small increments till we achieved the value needed for the test equipment. Old fashioned method but it works on carbon resistors.
Denver,CO
[ Parent ]


Re: genny control (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Nando on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 11:29:11 AM MST

Libra:

Tell your PIC engineer to connect directly with me, correct my address to remove the anti-spam changes.

I can assist him to do what he needs to program for proper wind mill management.

Nando




genny control | 8 comments (8 topical)
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