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single phase experiment
By modernmarvelinspired, Section Mechanical Posted on Sat Mar 17th, 2007 at 10:57:09 PM MST
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I've got a machine just like the wooden alternator under the experiments machine. But mine is quite different. I have 18 coils of 18awg wire with about 150 turns. The magnets are 2x1x1/2, and i am using 18 of them. The air gap is about 5/16". So the stator is made up of plywood laminations, and so is the rotor.This is wired for single phase output. My little hobby here is only making about 1.5 amps at 12-13 vdc at 1000rpm when conneted to a battery. I've messed up somewhere badly, please give any suggestions you may have.I've also considered charging at 24vdc, but the amperage is even lower. I know that wood is a bad choice , but my wife won't let met get the cool stuff hehe.

single phase experiment | 15 comments (15 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: single phase experiment (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by hiker (hiker.wild[at]yahoo[dot]com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2007 at 06:23:33 PM MST
(User Info)

hook a batt. or charger to the output leads...before the rectifier.
then hold a mag in your hand and move it over your coils-the mag should be attracted
by the first coil then pushed away by the secound and so on[of course it depends on your hook up if the first mag is attracted]im sure you get the idea--
that should tell you how your coils are workin...real easy way to check coils..
WILD IN ALASKA

Re: single phase experiment (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by hiker (hiker.wild[at]yahoo[dot]com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2007 at 06:34:02 PM MST
(User Info)

that should read..
if the first COIL is attracted....

WILD IN ALASKA
[ Parent ]

Re: single phase experiment (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by stephent on Sat Mar 17th, 2007 at 06:24:31 PM MST
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How did you hook the coils up? I figure series, but there's a catch to that in single phase.

Re: single phase experiment (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by modernmarvelinspired on Sun Mar 18th, 2007 at 11:12:24 AM MST
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Yes i do have the coils in series. What is the catch. :)

[ Parent ]

Re: single phase experiment (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by Flux on Sun Mar 18th, 2007 at 01:15:19 AM MST
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" The air gap is about 5/16"."

No it's not, it's miles. You will never do any good without iron at least as backing for the magnets.

Flux

Re: single phase experiment (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by modernmarvelinspired on Sun Mar 18th, 2007 at 11:14:35 AM MST
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What if I were to wrap a steel band around the rotor, then secure the magnets to it?

[ Parent ]

Re: single phase experiment (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by finnsawyer on Sun Mar 18th, 2007 at 08:02:23 AM MST
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Just for the hell of it why don't you try drilling and tapping holes holes in the centers of the coils and inserting soft metal screws? Then see how it performs. At this point you don't have much to lose, and might gain something.
GeoM

Re: single phase experiment (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by modernmarvelinspired on Sun Mar 18th, 2007 at 11:18:13 AM MST
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Do you mean to just fill the air core with serveral screws until the core is full?

[ Parent ]

Re: single phase experiment (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by hiker (hiker.wild[at]yahoo[dot]com) on Sun Mar 18th, 2007 at 12:33:21 PM MST
(User Info)

like i said check your coils.....
and dont put any metal screws in the coil holes---it will cog so badly you would need a pipe wrench to turn it over. been there done it :{
WILD IN ALASKA
[ Parent ]

Re: single phase experiment (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Flux on Mon Mar 19th, 2007 at 12:55:28 AM MST
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You should reverse the connections to alternate coils for this winding. If you get current into a 24v battery at 1000rpm I believe you have done this correctly but you can check.

You will never get much with wood. I am not sure what you mean about the banding.

What you need to do is roll the banding around a plywood disc with a diameter equal to the inside of the magnets and keep rolling until you make the diameter up to the magnet outside so that you have a ring of steel for the magnets to sit on. This will be as effective as a solid steel disc and should drastically increase the output.

You could make it even better if you made another disc like this and spun it with the other one with the magnets. Your stator coils would then work in a true "air gap" between these laminated steel discs.

If you can't manage to spin the second disc you could leave it stationary behind the stator and still gain output but at the expense of iron loss and drag.

If you just use the one steel disc with magnets and keep it single rotor without return flux paths then you need to keep the stator as close to the magnets as possible ( less than 1/8").

The big problem with this type of construction is keeping it stable, you will need to glue the banding as you wind it with epoxy or similar. If you don't the magnetic forces will pull the thing apart.

Not such a problem with one disc alone but if you add a second either spinning or stationary you will have a strong pull trying to spiral the strip out.

This seems stupid hard work compared with a solid steel disc but if it keeps the Missus out your hair you should be able to make it work. Be careful with that banding strip, if the magnets pull it out don't have fingers between it.

Don't put any form of iron in the coils.

Good luck
Flux

[ Parent ]

Re: single phase experiment (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by finnsawyer on Mon Mar 19th, 2007 at 08:25:55 AM MST
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Hmm! How to save the alternator? Well, he could glue an iron plate to the back of the rotor and then drill holes through it and part way through the plywood, and insert and glue iron rods or screws. The rods should be at least of the same diameter as the magnets. I presume Flux would have no particular problem so far. Putting an iron plate backing the stator would not do much good without some means of drawing the flux up through the coils. This would require some iron within the coils. So it becomes a trade off between cogging and output. O.K., not really practical. But he already has the plywood backed alternator in hand. Throw it away or try some things? If he doesn't find some benefit from the screws he can always remove them. The magnetic properties of wood and air are identical anyway. he really doesn't have much to lose.
GeoM
[ Parent ]

Re: single phase experiment (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by finnsawyer on Mon Mar 19th, 2007 at 07:04:34 AM MST
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No, one or two screws. While you don't necessarily have to tap the screw holes in wood, if you can do it it will allow for more control and precision. You insert the screws from the back and thread them in only so far as the cogging is acceptable. While I don't expect this to be a perfect solution, it should indicate why you want iron behind the rotors and stators, namely to provide a better path for the flux to pass from one pole of a magnet to the neighboring opposite pole. You could also try other things such as placing large washers around the screws on the back. Apparently, some people don't believe in a spirit of experimentation. They did something and feel that they have learned everything they need to know from that.

Note to the person who posted concerning the use of a single rotor with two stators: Scoop forced a time out on me yesterday and your comment disappeared from the activity list, so I couldn't respond. With two stators you have doubled the air gap, which cuts the flux in half, so you will get no improvement in output voltage.
GeoM
[ Parent ]

Re: single phase experiment (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by asheets on Mon Mar 19th, 2007 at 11:16:31 AM MST
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Did you make sure all the coils are wired correctly? I'd bet you have one shorted out or wired in backwards.
_____________________________

Alan Sheets

Re: single phase experiment (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by modernmarvelinspired on Mon Mar 19th, 2007 at 08:19:26 PM MST
(User Info)

I finally got it guys, thankyou so much for everyones help in this matter. Turns out my coils were screwed up something awful, but I don't know how or why. The magnets were n s n s etc, but after hooking up all the coils in series then plugging in a 12v 4ah battery i saw that my coils were really out of order. They were like n n n s s n n n n s n s s s n . I can now light up a dual bulb, 12vdc light with one simple spin of the rotor.

Theres no experience like fixing stuff after you messed up, then you learn hehe.

Re: single phase experiment (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by nothing to lose (nothingtolose175 at yahoo.com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:53:13 AM MST
(User Info)

Glad you got it working.

Those comments about steel behind the magnets, 2 rotors etc.. should still help you get more power out of it.
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.
[ Parent ]

single phase experiment | 15 comments (15 topical, 0 editorial)

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