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series motor help please


By Hilltopgrange, Section Mechanical
Posted on Sat Mar 24, 2007 at 03:02:05 AM MST
will this work

Hi all
          The pic below is of a large 72v traction motor from a 2 tonne electric forklift. I have been told that this is a series motor and that it can be used as a DC generator, but that is about as much as I know about it.

So Question one........ Is the above true?

Assuming that this is correct then my plan would be to drive it with a 10 hp diesel engine that I happen to have. The idea is to charge my 48v battery bank at times of low wind etc

So to the nitty gritty of the matter, the motor has 4 main connections the 2 nearest the brush gear are stamped A1 and A2 and the two at the other end are stamped F1 and F2. The ID plate is missing from the motor so its speed is unknown. This is a heavy beast! Two men struggled to get it onto the bench.

My guess at hook up would be, A1 and A2 = battery Pos and Neg and possibly through a big diode to stop the motor discharging the battery?
I also presume F1 and F2 are the field connections and by controlling the current through the field I could control the output at A1/A2.

So that's how I see it, am I even close?

Regards Russell


series motor help please | 6 comments (6 topical)

Re: series motor help please (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Flux on Sat Mar 24, 2007 at 01:07:18 AM MST

A true series motor is virtually impossible to use for battery charging but your beast may have a shunt stabilising field that you may be able to use.

It may not self excite from that shunt field but you could excite it from the battery via a series resistor if necessary.

You may have to dive inside and reverse the connections to the series field or possibly bypass it completely if you have enough shunt winding.

I suspect you can do it but without detailed knowledge of what the motor is wound as you are in the realms of experiment.

It will probably need to be driven fast.

I strongly suspect that the field connections that you have access to are a shunt winding and they may look to be lower current connections than the armature terminals.

If the field terminals are very heavy with very thick leads then it is probably a series winding. If it is series only you will have to do some serious tricks to use it.

Try measuring the field resistance between those terminals, if it is ohms then it is likely to be a shunt winding, if series it will be a few milliohms.



Re: series motor help please (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Hilltopgrange on Sat Mar 24, 2007 at 02:04:26 PM MST

Thanks guys for taking the time to respond.

I have just had a better look at it and found that I have misread the connections completely! I really must get glasses lol anyway after a rub with a wire brush a bright light and the use of my wife's eyeballs ! The connections now read A1 and A2 at the brush end, the other two are D1(S1) and D2(S2). Don't ask me where the F came from!

I have also pulled the beast apart and can confirm the leads and coils are all heavy. I have added a pic of the coils and a diagram of how they are connected to the terminals.

I have also found a little bit more info which might help those in the know! The truck had regenerative braking where by when the truck was coasting down hill the battery would charge to extend run time, when braking it was dumped to a large resistor in the chassis to reduce brake wear. I found the resistor today it is 2.5 ohm and about 6 inch dia

Hopefully all this means something to someone! Thanks again for your time

Russell









[ Parent ]



Re: series motor help please (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Flux on Sun Mar 25, 2007 at 01:21:18 AM MST

That does look to be series only, I can't see any shunt winding, but there may be some thinner leads at the brush end.

To use it as a separately excited generator you will need to supply the field with lots of amps at a fraction of a volt. If you connect the fields series instead of series parallel it will be a bit better but you will still have extreme trouble supplying that current at such a low voltage without special equipment.

Best advice I can give is to rewind the fields for shunt. I have forgotten what your battery voltage is, but you should be able to charge up to 48v easily. Turns and wire size would depend on the battery volts but you are probably looking at about 500AT per coil as a starting point.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: series motor help please (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by drdongle on Sat Mar 24, 2007 at 07:48:12 AM MST

A series motor is a very bad choice to use as a generator. As mentioned harder to excite, high speed. If it is a series design the field coils will use a very large cross section wire and they are connected in series with the stator coils pos to A1-A2 to F1-F2 to neg. If it is a shunt field ( smaller cross section wire) or compound ( with both series and shunt fields they you may have something you can use.
Carpe Vigor, Dr.D


Re: series motor help please (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Sat Mar 24, 2007 at 02:49:42 PM MST

Another issue is the "self-reversing motor" phenomenon:  If you leave it connected series and excite it with its own output CURRENT, it will suddenly reverse polarity when the load voltage is reduced.

An interesting demo in electrical engineering "big rotating machinery" lab is the one where they hook one motor-generator pair up as a series-connected generator and the dc side of another as a motor - with the field excited separately.  They make a circiut composed of the series combination of:
 - The armature of the motor
 - The armature of the generator
 - The field of the generator
 - A big resistor (think ten space heaters and switches to connect them in series-parallel connections to get the resistance they want).

The motor starts spinning up, then suddenly WHAM! it "slams on the breaks", the "oven" flashes bright orange, and the motor starts to spin up in the opposite direction.  This repeats every few seconds.

What happens is that initially the generator starts putting out voltage, which drives current, which increases field, which increases voltage, etc.  The voltage ramps up rapidly and starts spinning up the motor.

But eventually the motor starts developing a voltage across its rotor that opposes the current.  The current drops, which reduces the field excitation, which reduces the output voltage, and the whole positive feedback thing happens again, this time driving the field through zero into the reverse voltage in a fraction of a second.  The current is even larger (because the motor is also driving it).  So all the kinetic energy of the motor is dumped into the resistor and the motor starts spinning the opposite way - eventually spinning fast enough to do it all again the other way.

The whole thing is a "cautionary tale" for budding electrical engineers:  Don't wire the load in a GENERATOR through the field coils.   It's tempting to try to compensate for voltage drop by providing some current feedback to boost the excitation to get better output regulation.  But this doesn't work, because even a tiny bit too much overcompensates.  The effective load resistance becomes negative and the system oscilates - with ENORMOUS currents and forces involved.  (Without the resistor the motor and generator would self-destruct.)



Re: series motor help please (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Sat Mar 24, 2007 at 02:51:00 PM MST

Which doesn't mean you can't use the series motor as a genny.  But you MUST unhook the series connection of the field from the armature.

[ Parent ]


series motor help please | 6 comments (6 topical)
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