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12V DC outboard motor. Good for wind power?


By la7qz, Section Mechanical
Posted on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 02:47:11 AM MST
12V DC outboard motor. Good for wind power?

Hi

I am a full time liveaboard on a 36 foot ketch rigged sailboat in the Caribbean.

I have a complete blade and hub assembly with the airbrake for a Four Winds wind generator, but no motor or other parts. The original motor for the Four Winds is a bit out of my budget at the moment, but I have a 12V DC outboard motor I have been thinking of using. The actual motor is around the same size as the original Four Winds motor. I have been warned (by someone with no experience of wind power) that this motor would get too hot when spinning out of water. Everything else about it looks fine though, particularly the fact that it is already built for a thrust application and that it is intended to be submersed, so it's weatherproof. I'm not looking for a huge amount of output. I'd be happy with 50W, happier with 100 and ecstatic with 200 at anchor in typical trade wind conditions.

There is no room for a rotor of this size to yaw into the wind on my boat, so I am thinking of simply mounting the generator on the front of the mizzen mast so that it works when the boat is at anchor and facing into the wind. Most sailboats spend much more time at anchor than under weigh anyway, and I also use more power at anchor than I do at sea. Wiring it through a diode bridge would prevent any problems caused by a wind from astern turning the generator backwards though I don't expect it would generate much that way. Perhaps I could turn the rotor back to front for a long downwind passage (like the Pacific crossing), but with 15 - 20 knots of wind and 5-6 knots of average boatspeed, I would only see 10 - 15 knots of wind across the boat on a downwind run.

The electric outboard was a freebie and the main reason I have not simply tried this out to see what would happen is that the shaft diameter of the outboard is slightly smaller than the hole in the Four Winds hub. That means I have find a machine shop to make me a new hub or an adapter. I don't really want to spend any money before I know more. Someone suggested building up the shaft diameter with metal epoxy (something like J-B Weld) and then spinning the motor to turn the shaft to the correct diameter. I actually started on this, but chickened out. There will be people (including me) sitting directly below the wind generator (that's the case on most sailboat installations) and I like my life too much to risk a jury rigged rotor attachment.

At the moment, power on my boat is being generated by two 55 watt solar panels attached to the guard rails augmented while at anchor by a third 55W panel which is laid out on deck when needed (I haven't found a good place to mount it). I find that the two 55 Watt panels are usually sufficient at sea in the sunny Caribbean, but the three panels are not always enough at anchor when I use more power for the computer etc. My engine has a high output Lucas alternator (unknown capacity) and an external regulator, but I strongly dislike running the engine just to charge batteries. I never go into marinas, so I don't even own an AC battery charger.

My cruising area at present is the eastern Caribbean, possibly venturing into the Pacific in a couple of years.

My house bank is four T-105 Trojans wired to make a 12V 460Ah battery bank and I have no fridge, so my power consumption at sea would be mainly nav lights, VHF, GPS and AIS with occasional use of the SSB (ham) transceiver and stereo and the computer for navigation only when leaving and entering port. At anchor it would be the same, but with more computer use for the Internet and watching movies and more use of interior lighting.

The person I got the electric outboard motor from had tried to use it as a towed generator, but was not getting any output unless his boat was moving at more than 8 knots. Hardly surprising as he was using the original propeller which was designed for driving a small light boat rather than generating electricity. My secondary option if you guys concur with the advice that my outboard motor would overheat in a wind application would be to use it as a towed generator with a more suitable propeller than the original. I'm thinking of something like a high speed prop off a bigger gasoline outboard. Anyone have any experience with rotors for towed generators?

Any input would be welcome. (I tried searching the site, but could not find anything on using electric outboard motors to generate electricity.)

The power to write this post all came from the sun and my boat is both driven and steered by the wind. :o)

Regards,

Owen Morgan
Admirality Bay, Bequia

A photo of my boat can be found here:
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/737793

Click here for my latest reported position:
http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/winlink.cgi?call=LA7QZ

12V DC outboard motor. Good for wind power? | 21 comments (21 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: 12V DC outboard motor. Good for wind power? (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by nothing to lose (nothingtolose175 at yahoo.com) on Sun Mar 25th, 2007 at 09:01:23 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi, hope I read your post correct, my eyes hurt and blurry.

First thing is a 12Vdc motor needs to be a permanant magnet type and second thing is that to get 12V back out of it as a genny it will have to spin at the same or more rpms as it would run as a motor.
So if this is a 1000rpm motor it would need to spin at 1000rpms or more. If it has a gear ratio drive, it may turn or spin at lower rpm but it will take allot of torque to get it going perhaps.

Best way to test it is just spin it with another motor or in a lathe or such to find out what RPM it will make over 14V and also test the amps it's putting out. Do this into a 12V battery as a load, if you just check the loose ends of wires that's open volts and don't mean much.

My geuss (not knowing exactly what the motor is) would be it's not going to work.
And what ever you use for a wind genny it should turn to face the wind, or more like turn to face out of the wind. In a big storm winds can rip it apart if it does not furl  out of the winds at high speeds. At sail My geuss is you will hit major winds at times, and at anchor also. I think I saw2 something about an airbrake, if so you may not need to furl, but if you can build it to yaw into winds more power to you :)

Tell you what, I travel allot anyway, I would be happy to sail the ocean blue and give advice and help build a great genny at sea with you, I'm not doing much till next NOV. anyway so give me a yell :)
 About 8 months at sea and you should have plenty of power!

Search this board with a google search for garbogen, and look at posts by Jerry. If you can find a plain old garbage disposel motor where your at it should make all the power you need at anchor or at sail! I am sure far more than the 12V your mentioned.
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.



Re: 12V DC outboard motor. Good for wind power? (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Nando (nando37-at-tx-dot-rr-dot-com Correct theanti-spam) on Sun Mar 25th, 2007 at 09:52:00 PM MST
(User Info)

He said that was a trolling motor, so it has permanent magnets and to define what can be done, since he is sailing ( I wish I were there) he will have problems even with Internet connections ( satellite probably).

If the motor is around 36 volts, then he may attain power harvesting submerged and or flying mode if the RPM is around 800 - 1000 RPM and maybe less if it is a 4 pole PM motor.

The only thing he needs is to determine the motor characteristics to know what to suggest.

Nando

[ Parent ]



Re: 12V DC outboard motor. Good for wind power? (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Nando (nando37-at-tx-dot-rr-dot-com Correct theanti-spam) on Sun Mar 25th, 2007 at 09:44:57 PM MST
(User Info)

Oh !! I hate YOU, I hate YOU !! Because you are doing my dream and I am not !!.

Changing the subject.
To know how much energy can be produced, I need to know the motor operating voltage, (the higher, the better) and the running current at maximum voltage.

The propeller needs changing and the diameter depends on the data I ask.

The new propeller may have around 30 degrees to make rotate the motor higher enough to charge the batteries when sailing.

For wind, the diameter needs to be calculated with the expected output power at a known wind velocity (meter/second) and should have a good TSR.

Let us know

Nando



Re: 12V DC outboard motor. Good for wind power? (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by coldspot on Sun Mar 25th, 2007 at 09:54:48 PM MST
(User Info)

 la7qz-
"electric outboard motor"
Are you talking about an actual outboard type or a trolling motor type?
minn koda or motorguide brand maybe?
Any real info on this ?
also about the hub n blade set, hub shaft size?
blade size?




Re: 12V DC outboard motor. Good for wind power? (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Gill (gilljadams at hotmail dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 02:32:30 AM MST
(User Info)

G'day Folks,
I have a very old Mercury Machete outboard.  It is a permanent magnet type so did a little test on it some time ago. I noticed it has 16 cogging humps per rev, not bad for 78mm dia. The cogging resistance is also very low @ 500 grams on a radius of 39mm. Now that is way better than my old wind gen.

The big question is, what power does it output and at what revs?
Now as an outboard it is quite tame if not sleepy in the revs department for the 12 volts in. So maybe it's designed for slower speeds and that could be a plus as a generator.
I've given it a spin.

At 1000RPM with 4.5ohm resistor I got 1.1A @ 4.9v DC (in crude test environment). Not that impressive really. Do you have a use for 4.9v?

Maybe yours is of more recent design and is more powerful?

Seeing this, I'm keeping mine as an outboard until I chip the rest of the prop to it's hub, but would be keen to hear how you go if you give one a try.

Best of luck... Gill




Re: 12V DC outboard motor. Good for wind power? (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by PeterAVT on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 03:36:02 AM MST
(User Info)

Nice boat! May I recommmend the Youngstown Yacht club if you ever get a chance? At http://www.yyc.org
It's on the delta of the Niagara River across from Ft. Erie in Lake Ontario, NY USA.
(really big fresh water)
For the prop hub, I have no problems with J-B-Weld myself as long as its accurately cured and machined. I have actually held motorcycle crank-cases together with it. Lacking that, some people here are really good at props AKA rotors.
AKA "inode_buddha" Power to the people!


Re: 12V DC outboard motor. Good for wind power? (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by la7qz on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 09:38:00 AM MST
(User Info) http://home.no.net/naomij

Hi

Thanks for all the comments. First of all: No, I'm not accessing the Internet through a Satellite phone. I don't know anyone with enough money to use a sat-phone for browsing the www. In some harbours (like here in Bequia), I can get wifi with a good external antenna on the boat. Some places it's free, some places it's too expensive to be worth the bother. In other harbours there is nothing, or maybe I can take my laptop ashore to an Internet café. I usually don't know what the situation will be the next place before I get there, so if you don't hear from me for a while after I leave Bequia, you'll know I don't have Internet access. Since I'm a radio ham, I can get e-mails through Winlink over HF radio even at sea, but that's a very slow system and there is no web access.

To those who want to do what I'm doing... All you need is a sailboat. Sailboats are much cheaper than houses. Your living costs will be much lower. All long term cruisers are interested in renewable energy. Using an infernal combustion engine to charge batteries is noisy and smelly, annoys the neighbours and heats up the boat. You also have to pay for the fuel, and diesel engines are not happy being run for long times in a low load application. (Just turning an alternator rather than pushing the boat).

If you come out here with a boat flying an efficient, QUIET wind generator that you built yourself, your skills will be in high demand. With quiet, I mean not only audible noise, but also RF noise. I hate the damned Air-X wind generators which are the most common on sailboats. Not only is it a pain to be anchored next to one and have to listen to the noise (particularly when it's not my batteries it's pumping amps into), but many of them put out very loud RF noise which makes HF radio communications or listening to SW broadcast radio impossible if you're anchored within 100 - 200 yards. The manufacturers know about the problem, but are not interested in fixing it.

Now to business:

The motor I have is a trolling motor. It is incomplete, but I assume it is 12V DC, permanent magnet. There are no gears. The propeller was attached direct to the shaft which looks like it is 1/2" diameter. The propeller is more hefty than some, which implies it is not right at the bottom of the scale as far as power goes. There is no cogging when turning the shaft by hand. It becomes a bit harder to turn when shorted, but not really heavy.

The speed controller etc are missing, but I have the motor and the propeller. I am unsure about the manufacturer, but there is a sticker on the motor casing that says "Whisper Drive HE - Magnaquench". There is also a sticker on the clear plastic propeller that says "Machete". The upper part (where the speed control would be) is missing, so there may have been some more identificaton there. I've searched the net, but not been able to identify it, but maybe it's the same Mercury unit Gill has?

The 4.9V / 1.1A at 1000 RPM quoted by Gill from a similar unit implies that this is a non-starter, at least for a wind application. I don't have any means of swinging it to test, as the only power tool I own is a 12V electric drill (converted from a rechargeable) which is much too slow. I also don't have any way of measuring the RPM. I was shipwrecked last year (run down by a freighter) and lost my boat and all my tools, so I'm just in the process of getting my life back together, but that's a different story. I often see boats with the Four Winds wind generator and have noticed it is quite a slow revving rotor, so chances are this won't work. It would of course be nice to find some use for the trolling motor, but the main priority is to get a functional wind generator. I have no need for it as a trolling motor. A good pair of oars work just fine for me. Keeps me young. One of my (many) other projects is to put a sailing rig on the dinghy. The gasoline powered outboard that came with the boat is for sale.

The question then would change to looking for a suggestion for a low cost DC motor that would work well with the Four Winds rotor, hub and air brake assembly I already have, and where would I look for a suitable motor out here in the Caribbean. I don't have calipers, but measuring with a tape measure, it looks like the Four Winds hub is meant for a 5/8" shaft. Garbage disposals, as suggested by nothing to lose as a source for a motor are probably not used much out here. And no, unless you're female and unattached, you can't come sailing with me for eight months. A week is about as long as I can tolerate a male friend on the boat. That's with shared costs and if you insist on eating or drinking out, you pick up my tab as well. I'm broke!

On yawing, there really is no good way of swinging a rotor that big on this boat and allowing it to yaw. There is nowhere to mount it that would not either put its weight too high, interfere with sails or rigging or put it dangerously low (within reach of arms or heads). However, that is not a great problem as the boat is normally pointing into the wind at anchor anyway. She certainly will be when the wind is strong enough to generate electricity. She does swing about a bit, maybe 30 degrees each side of the wind direction on a breezy day, but I don't think that will be a major issue. I could set the mizzen sail to keel her pointing better into the wind. Very few wind turbines will have a tail bigger than that! A cruising boat spends much more time in port than at sea, uses less energy at sea and occasionally has to run the engine at sea for other reasons, so I'm willing to live with a wind generator that does not work under sail.

Thanks again for your input. Now I just need to divert some of it into my batteries :o)

PS. Did someone move my original post from wind to mechanical just after I posted it? Confused me. I thought it had disappeared into the ether.

Regards,

Owen Morgan
Admirality Bay, Bequia

A photo of my boat can be found here:
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/737793

Click here for my latest reported position:
http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/winlink.cgi?call=LA7QZ
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.



Correction (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by la7qz on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 11:04:11 AM MST
(User Info) http://home.no.net/naomij

Hi again

Looks like my trolling motor is not permanent magnet? I tried touching the motor housing with a spanner and there was no "attraction".

OK, so let's forget about this one for any generating application and just try to find a DC motor that will work with my Four Winds rotor.

Owen
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
[ Parent ]



Re: Correction (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by RP (russp located-at fidnet (dot) com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 11:36:09 AM MST
(User Info)

If I read the Fourwinds website correctly, it looks like they make 2 different models.  Both have ~5 foot diameter blades which might be a little slow for an Amtek but on the other hand, they're two blade units, so should turn a little faster than a typical 3 blader.

I wonder if anyone else experienced with an Amtek-30 mill would comment on suitability?

[ Parent ]



Re: Correction (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by coldspot on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 04:32:00 PM MST
(User Info)

"touching the motor housing"
That didn't tell you anything
take it apart to see if magnets inside or not
I looked at the boat picture
It's huge
easy as pie to make and have a wind mill for that size boat.
$0.02


[ Parent ]


Re: Correction (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by la7qz on Tue Mar 27th, 2007 at 06:43:51 AM MST
(User Info) http://home.no.net/naomij

Hi Coldspot

There doesn't seem to be much point in taking the trolling motor apart to check for magnets as the consensus here seems to be it's not going to generate anything worthwhile in a 12V application anyway. Taking it apart would probably compromise the watertight integrity, so it seems better to leave it alone and pass it on to someone who needs it as a trolling motor.

About the size of the boat. 40 years ago she would have been considered huge, nowadays she's considered a small cruising boat. I lived for 14 years on a 28 footer and was happy as Larry and would probably have kept her forever if she hadn't been sunk by a Chinese freighter last year. I rattle about in this boat, but she was the only boat I could find within my budget that had ocean going potential. I got her cheap because she has issues, lots of issues, but they are all issues I am qualified to deal with and at the end of the day she will be worth a fair bit more than she'll have cost me. That is very unusual in boats. I would have preferred something a little smaller which would have been handier to sail and cheaper to maintain. (Ocean going potential is more a function of design and build quality than of size).

When you look at the photo of the boat and consider where to place a turbine, you must imagine her with all her sails set. Then imagine you're seeing her from above and fill in the arcs covered by the main and mizzen booms. (The mizzen boom overhangs the stern.) Disregard those areas and you're not left with much. There is only one possible location for a wind turbine on this boat, and that is on the front of the mizzen mast below the stay that goes between the spreaders on the mizzen mast (halfway up) and the masthead of the mainmast. Placing a wind turbine above this stay would put the weight too high (making the boat more tender) and also put unfair loads on the rigging. Any other location would interfere with sails or rigging.

There is room for a non yawing turbine in this location, but not room for a yawing one, at least not with the 5' rotor I have. That means the turbine would work at anchor when the boat will normally be pointing into the wind (because that's what anchored boats do), but not at sea. That's a compromise I'm willing to live with. I don't know all that much about wind turbines, but I know more than most about sailboats. I designed the rig on my last boat and I know about the strains a heavy item like a wind turbine would put on the rigging if placed at the top of the mizzen mast (like some do). That is a compromise I am not willing to live with. Anyway, there's a radio transceiver antenna up there (2m/70cm ham bands) and I like my antenna.

Regards,

Owen Morgan
Admirality Bay, Bequia

A photo of my boat can be found here:
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/737793

Click here for my latest reported position:
http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/winlink.cgi?call=LA7QZ
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
[ Parent ]



Re: Correction (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by ghurd on Tue Mar 27th, 2007 at 06:54:03 AM MST
(User Info)

Maybe consider a small AC conversion. 3' dia can make 100W.
G-

[ Parent ]


Re: sea mill (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by pepa on Tue Mar 27th, 2007 at 09:25:09 AM MST
(User Info)

Hi Owen, the first windmill I built was for a sailboat that my son lives on. You have clean wind down to the water line so you don't have to put the mill in the mast area. My son had an ss bracket made with a swivel boom and mounted so that the mill operated below the mast on the stern of the boat. The boom would swing out and lock at the corner of the stern at a 45 degree angle and the 36" downwind windmill mounted on the mount and swiveled to follow the wind, with stops to keep the blade from hitting the boom. I do not have pictures of the one I built but I do have the original plans by Bob McKenna that I built from. I will scan and email them to you if you would like. This is a picture from those plans, hope it helps pepa. Try this web sight http://ebooks@mckennaweb.com a picture of his mill




[ Parent ]


Re: sea mill (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by la7qz on Tue Mar 27th, 2007 at 11:40:22 AM MST
(User Info) http://home.no.net/naomij

Hi Pepa

There is just no way I will place a turbine anywhere a human can reach it. Not even a human stretching and trying to reach it. There is something psychological that makes some people want to reach out and "almost" touch a spinning rotor or propeller. I used to fly model aircraft and have seen it there. Sometimes with bloody results. Believe me, you don't want to be anywhere near the prop on a 10cc model aircraft engine, even when it is only ticking over.

Placing the turbine so that any part of the rotor is outside of the perimeter of my boat is also a no-no and would not work at all at sea. There are times I will want to raft up to other boats and there are times when badly handled boats may come too close and my turbine might catch on part of another boat. Installing a turbine low enough to be clear below the booms and sails would mean it would be within reach of someone coming up to my boat in a dinghy. If it was dark, they might not even see it. There are also times when putting the boat alongside a harbour wall might put a pole mounted turbine just at human level. I've seen wind generators on boats spinning within easy reach of children walking along the harbour wall.

Believe me, the only place to safely and permanently install a turbine on my boat is mounted non-yawing on the front of the mizzen mast. I could make a fully yawing turbine to hoist in the rigging between the masts while at anchor, but that would have to be taken down and stowed below at sea and since the boat already points into the wind at anchor it would not do anything that a non-yawing turbine on the front of the mizzen mast wouldn't do just as well with no need to take it down at sea. There isn't enough room in a 36 foot boat that I would want to stow a wind turbine below decks. Single masted boats usually have the turbine on a pole at the stern, but my mizzen boom overhangs the stern, so that is not an option.

As I've said, I have no problem living with a turbine that only works at anchor when the whole boat will be yawing into the wind anyway. I already have solar power and the boat spends more time and uses more energy at anchor than at sea. Right now, under the Caribbean sun, my 7A ammeter is peaked out with my three 55W panels. (I need to find a 15A meter for the solar panels.) I lived with solar power on my last boat for years and have become very good at conserving energy even though I always seem to need "just a little" more than I am generating... For this reason, I have never seen a need for a regulator for my solar panels other than me keeping an eye on the voltmeter.

Don't worry about the location on the boat. What I need help with is what generator to use with the 5' 2 bladed Four Winds rotor I have. Bearing in mind I have very limited tools and facilities and the hub is machined for a 5/8 inch shaft.

PS. I can't get the "mckennaweb" site to load. All I get to is a page with a photo of a boat and some, unfinished buttons that don't lead anywhere.

Regards,

Owen Morgan
Yacht Magic
Admirality Bay, Bequia

A photo of my boat can be found here:
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/737793

Click here for my latest reported position:
http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/winlink.cgi?call=LA7QZ
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
[ Parent ]



Re: Correction (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Tue Mar 27th, 2007 at 09:39:47 AM MST
(User Info)

When you look at the photo of the boat and consider where to place a turbine, you must imagine her with all her sails set. Then imagine you're seeing her from above and fill in the arcs covered by the main and mizzen booms. (The mizzen boom overhangs the stern.) Disregard those areas and you're not left with much.

You also have to consider the effect of the drag and air-wake of the turbine on the operation of the boat.

Turbines have enormous drag.  Put them anywhere other than very near the center-of-effort of the sails and they'll make your boat difficult to steer.  You've got a ketch, which will put the center of effort is somewhere on your mainsail you're hosed for using a turbine when under way - unless you want to leave the mainsail down and sail jib-and-jigger.  (Putting one of any significant power near the bow, ahead of the foresail(s), sets you up for an uncontrolled jibe, which seems like an especially serious hazard on a two-master.)

Putting a small one near the stern might work on a sloop, catching some of the wind after the sails are done with it, and making the boat steer windward - which you might compensate for by reefing early.  But with a ketch or yawl there's no clearance due to the mizzen boom.

If it were me I'd use a towed generator rather than a wind turbine when under way.  If I had a windmill for power when at anchor I'd take it down or lash the rotor (to minimize drag) when under way.

Do you cruise?  Do you single-hand?  If so, what do you do when asleep?  (Sea anchor?  Auto-tiller?  Heave-to?)

[ Parent ]



Re: Correction (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by la7qz on Wed Mar 28th, 2007 at 11:09:21 AM MST
(User Info) http://home.no.net/naomij

Hi

> You also have to consider the effect of the drag and air-wake
> of the turbine on the operation of the boat.

I have never heard any sailor complain of any effect of a wind turbine on the sailing characteristics of his boat. It's highly unlikely that it will be noticeable in the size of turbines that would be appropriate for a sailboat. The Four Winds rotor I want to use is flying on thousands of sailboats around the world on the original Four Winds generator

>(Putting one of any significant power near the bow, ahead of the foresail(s),
> sets you up for an uncontrolled jibe, which seems like an especially serious hazard
> on a two-master.)

There is no way you could even think of mounting ANYTHING in front of the sails on a sailboat. It would be madness for all sorts of very good reasons that have to do with basic sailboat design, centre of gravity, the mechanics of staying it etc. Apart from that, the space in front of the headsails is not free space. There are situations when one has to let the sheets fly and this space becomes filled with flogging canvas.

Anyway, I've already said, I'm quite happy with a wind turbine that only works at anchor when the boat is always facing into the wind. I use far more energy at anchor than I do at sea, and I spend far more time at anchor than I do at sea. I know what the best place would be to mount it on this boat (as in the only place). All I'm looking for now is a suitable generator to fly with the 5' two blade rotor I already have.

> If it were me I'd use a towed generator rather than a wind turbine when under way.

They also have issues. They slow the boat down by up to half a knot (for an efficient one) and big fish take the rotors. I have seen tooth marks on the 12" rotor from a towed generator! Another option sometimes used is to put a pulley on the propshaft and let the main propeller spin whilst sailing. It has two disadvantages. First of all, it is, as always difficult to find a generator that will work at low revs and you're putting more wear on the drive train.

> Do you cruise?  Do you single-hand?  If so, what do you do when asleep?

Yes, I am a full time long distance cruiser. Normally, I would sleep 10 or 15 minutes at a time with an egg timer on a long coastal passage. (Shorter than 36 hours I would not sleep at all). On long open ocean passages I sleep an hour at a time with an egg timer. Get up, have a look around, go back to bed for one more hour. I reckon it's only my own life I'm risking.

>  (Sea anchor?  Auto-tiller?  Heave-to?)

There is no safety benefit to stopping the boat out on the ocean rather than keeping her sailing unless you are running out of sea room. I only heave too in very heavy weather. It is no more likely that you'll get run down if you're under weigh than stopped. My boat is steered by a wind vane self-steering gear. Totally mechanical. Uses no electricity. Uses the wind direction for course input and the speed of the boat through the water for energy.

On my old boat I had the windpilot pacific which is the unit I prefer:
http://www.windpilot.de
I now have the Norvane because I couldn't afford a new Windpilot when I bought Magic. I got the Norvane second hand for US 800 in Trinidad. It steers well, but seems less robust than the Windpilot.
http://www.selfsteering.com/

Owen Morgan
Yacht Magic
Admirality Bay, Bequia
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
[ Parent ]



Re: 12V DC outboard motor. Good for wind power? (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by PeterAVT on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 11:24:55 AM MST
(User Info)

All that explains all the noise at the yacht club. Half the people there use the Air-X, and the other half are either shore power or small diesels. I like to shop around at http://www.surpluscenter.com for DC motors. You probably want something fairly low RPM, a big horsepower figure, and with permanent magnets. Not always cheap, but its OK. Most of the people here build their own with marine epoxy. Sorry, I can't help out with the girls or the cooking -- If I could, I would be ahem busy elsewhere.
AKA "inode_buddha" Power to the people!


Re: 12V DC outboard motor. Good for wind power? (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:28:58 PM MST
(User Info)

From my limited experience it seems very difficult to find many DC permanent magnet motors that will make good 12V generators. For the treadmill type motors, the general rule I use is, to find as HIGH a voltage rating as possible in relation to as LOW as an RPM as possible. So say 90vdc @ 900rpm would be very good-- but 130vdc @ 6550 rpm is horrible. I also get motors from "Surplus Center" catalog, and about the only motor I would even try right now out of all their DC permanent magnet motors is Item # 10-2190.  (2.5hp/ 130vdc @3250rpm/ 18amps/ $59.95) It has the 5/8" shaft and MIGHT make a pretty good 5'rotor DC generator. However, COGGING is always a concern with permanent magnet DC motors , especially with only 2 blades as I believe I just read, that you say you want to use. You may just want to make your own blades.(3 or 4) Really not too difficult. According to my rough calculations, that motor should do 14-16 volts at about 400 RPM. The generator weighs 36 lbs which isn't too bad. You could test it and as long as you don't scratch it or something, send it back if not high enough voltage. But I think it looks promising. If you want to keep it, you could keep rain out of the main bearings by sealing them in with thick 5-min epoxy like I did recently in my recent post at:
 http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/3/9/2533/99152
My posting is on front page called "Treadmill motor/generator in air" . You might get some ideas.
Or, you could just spray a couple coats of primer and spray paint enamel on the INSIDE of the motor and drill a couple of small drain holes on the bottom of the motor. (which is what I also did in addition to epoxy) The inside of the motor has condensation anyway. I would keep smearing typical marine grease in the bearings though to keep as much rain out as possible.
Anyway, thats my 2cents.  -have fun on that awesome sail boat you lucky dog!



Re: 12V DC outboard motor. Good for wind power? (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by la7qz on Tue Mar 27th, 2007 at 08:26:09 AM MST
(User Info) http://home.no.net/naomij

Hi CmeBrew

Thanks for your input and hints on choosing motors. I have looked up the motor you mentioned on Surplus Center and bookmarked the page. With 103 in stock, it looks like they have enough of them that I can wait until I get to somewhere I'm going to stay for a while before I order it. (Probably St. Maarten) The price is within my budget too.

I'd already read your articles with much interest and have just read them again. There is some very useful information in there. Painting the generator inside with epoxy primer sounds like a good idea. I'm not sure why you'd paint over it with enamel though. Outside is a different thing, as most epoxies (particularly clear ones) are not UV resistant. If you don't paint over it on the outside, the epoxy may well fail within a year or two in a sunny location. (I have a lot of experience with epoxies for boat repairs.)

As for making my own blades. I would probably have done that if I still had all my tools, but sadly they are at the bottom of the Atlantic with my old boat - and everything else I owned. It's ironic that when I lost my boat, I also lost a tool collection that would have been good enough to build another boat...

As I already have a rotor (with a centrifugal airbrake), it makes sense to use that. I will be slowly rebuilding my toolkit as finances allow, but for now my capabilities a rather limited. That also means that modifying some sort of motor or alternator is probably not an option at this stage. I basically need something I can make a simple mounting bracket for and then bolt my existing rotor onto it. Weatherproofing, soldering and replacing bearings etc. are be within my capabilities. Machining is not. Rewinding a motor would be difficult out here simply because I'd have trouble finding the wire.

There is also the question of where to work. There's no room for a workshop on a 36 foot sailboat, so I would be working in the cockpit which is also the main area for entertaining guests for sundowners etc. An evolving wind turbine project would be a great conversation piece, but they may not appreciate the clutter or the wood and metal shavings. When looking at boats, I looked at a couple with two toilets (heads in nautical speak) simply because I could have ripped one of them out and converted to a workshop. Pity I didn't like the rest of the boat... I ended up with the best (and prettiest) ocean going sailing machine my money would buy, but no room for a proper workshop.

Regards,

Owen Morgan
Admirality Bay, Bequia

A photo of my boat can be found here:
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/737793

Click here for my latest reported position:
http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/winlink.cgi?call=LA7QZ

If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
[ Parent ]



Re: 12V DC outboard motor. Good for wind power? (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by thefinis (thefinis@hotmail.com) on Thu Mar 29th, 2007 at 12:18:10 PM MST
(User Info)

The fourwinds site gives very little info on what I was looking for like rpms tsr or graphs of output so matching a generator to the blades is a lot of guess work.

Quick guess work 5 ft dia with 5 tsr in a 15 mph wind should do 420 rpm(about 28 rpm per mph) and can make about 100 watts@15mph normally if generator is matched right. Does this look right guys?

I would look around and try to find a shop that will test the motor for output. Many auto parts stores have just the thing its used for bench testing alts you will just need to add a pully. If no such stores close find someone with a power drill with a known rpm. If it works even close to the output you wanted then lets play with the parts you have. Remember to adjust pully size to expected rpms for expected out put or adjust calculations for the rpms used. If it doesn't work then see if you can find out what rpm @ what wind speed  or the tsr those blades work at.

For now you have the sealed trolling motor I like that. You have the fourwinds hub and blades. Is the shaft keyed or threaded or have the flat spot for set screws? If keyed and the slots are the same size then a shim of copper tubing or stainless could be used. Soft or hard copper tubing 1/2 id can be cut out with a hacksaw for the key slot or cut or drilled for set screws. Not sure if copper in steel is good around salt water if you ever want to take it apart so you may need stainless tubing if it works. I would try soft copper tubing to experiment with and stainless if it is going to work.

My recommendation if trolling motor is no go is an F&P if you can find a used one. Being out of a washing machine it should handle moisture better than some. Jerry has some results posted with a 61" diameter here is a link to a thread with some results he had using an F&P motor.
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/4/12/221445/287
Here is a good site especially for units with F&P motors. Check out Glen's lenz2 with an F&P if you don't use the fourwinds hub and blades. It should fit in the spot you wanted to put one.
http://thebackshed.com/Windmill/FORUM1/forum_topics.asp?FID=2

Sorry about your baby being sunk. May fair winds always be at your back.

Finis
Texas born and bred



Re: 12V DC outboard motor. Good for wind power? (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by la7qz on Thu Mar 29th, 2007 at 10:15:55 PM MST
(User Info) http://home.no.net/naomij

Hi Finis and all

I have actually got my hands on a much better candidate! I have the generator part (only) of a DuoGen wind/water generator. The innards of it are very similar to what I've seen home brewed by guys on this site. Stator windings cast in epoxy and permanent magnets on a rotating flywheel. It's a three phase star wound generator. I think it will do well with the Four Winds rotor, and maybe I can make a better rotor later when I get more tools together. Best of all, it has a 5/8 shaft.

The problem with it is the bearings are totally shot because of salt water ingress and the rectifying bridge is corroded to bits. Can't even see what it's looked like. My biggest worry is how I'm going to get the old bearings out of it. Salt water, aluminium case and steel bearings are not a good mix... It is probably going to take a fair amount of violence and blasphemy plus some hellfire.

There are three wires coming out of the stator. I have tried spinning it just by hand. No measurements yet. Shorting any pair of the wires while it is spinning stops it pretty quickly. I am assuming that means the windings are OK, but will ohm them later. I suppose I can use the trolling motor to spin it, I knew it would be useful for something... Still no way of measuring rpm unless I can get my hands on a bicycle computer. (Very few  people using bicycles out here.)

My idea with this generator is instead of trying to keep water out of it (which obviously hasn't worked before, to paint everything inside with epoxy primer and leave it open to the elements (with waterproof bearings of course). It should run cooler too. It will be 10 foot or so up my mizzen mast, so will not have direct exposure to seawater, just rainwater and salty moist air.

I'm having problems with my Internet connection now (crossing my fingers that I will actually be able to post this), but will write more and post some photos when I get a better connection which may be some days. I'm probably sailing to Rodney Bay, St Lucia tomorrow. I'll start a new thread on the new generator when I get there if I can get a decent Internet connection.

Regards, and thanks.

Owen Morgan
Yacht Magic
Admirality Bay, Bequia

Click here for a photo of my boat:
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/737793]

Click here for my latest reported position:
http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/winlink.cgi?call=LA7QZ
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
[ Parent ]



12V DC outboard motor. Good for wind power? | 21 comments (21 topical, 0 editorial)
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Do you think a 12V outboard motor will work well as a wind generator?
Yes, of course.
Yes, but you would have to modify it.
I doubt it.
No way.

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