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An argument for thicker inboard airfoils


By paradigmdesign, Section Wind
Posted on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:30:02 PM MST
An argument for thicker inboard airfoils on a 3 blade HWAT

I am writing this post to discuss the benefits of using progressively thicker airfoils at the interior of the blade, with a somewhat limited chord, as opposed to using a constant thickness throughout. It will discuss how the benefits can be seen in either a twisted blade, or a strait blade. For this discussion, we will be using a static pitch, 17 degree total twist 3 blade, 10 ft. dia. turbine, with a N.A.C.A. 44xx series of airfoils.

Before we get into the aerodynamic benefits of using thicker airfoils on inboard sections of the blade, we must discuss how much power is in each segment of the blade sweep.


It should be noted that the segments are listed as such 100%= (100% - 90% span), and that those numbers are taken from total amount of power in the section, not the actual amount collected.

Also notice that adding 10% to the blade dia. increases the total swept area by 19%.

You can see how little power there is in the inboard sections of the blade. This proves that the dominate function of the inboard sections is structural, not aerodynamic. (i.e. The 20% section is only contains 3% of the wind power but is responsible for transferring approx 99% of the load)

Now we can discuss the apparent wind angle. The apparent wind angle is different on each section of the blade, which is the idea behind twisting blades. Also turbines work over a range of TSRs throughout there power curve, starting at 0, and working up to their rated TSR. Here is a list of apparent wind angles for 3 different TSRs


Note that the twist for the inboard sections. No one builds blades with segments with a 59 degree twist, or even a 30 degree, it would be very structurally inefficient. Twisted blades are twisted to take advantage of the outermost 60%-70% more effectively, than they are twisted to take advantage of ALL of the wind at all sections.

Now we can start looking at the aerodynamic data. Below is a list of the performance curves for 4 different airfoils. They were NACA 4415, 4420, 4425, and 4430. The last two digits of the airfoil number represent the thickness of the airfoil. These calculations were done with Javafoil, using the Eppler transition, and stall models. The Reynolds Number was set to 300,000


These calculations show optimum angle of attack and relative output, and does not represent the actual blade efficiency. Note how the 4430 has a much wider angle of attack which is logical for a wider profile, but it actually has a higher Lift/Drag (Cl/Cd) than the 4415 at any angle past 11 degrees.

Figuring that a twisted blade has 17 degrees of total twist in the blade, and is mounted at a starting AOA of 3, with a linear twist, this would be your twist


When you figure in the apparent wind angles vs. TSR you get your angles of attack:


You can see that at any TSR, the inboard sections would benefit from being a thicker profile due to their angles of attack, especially during their lower TSRs. This holds true even more-so with straight blades because they will have even higher relative angles of attack on their inboard sections due to the lack of twist. Not to mention the fact that the 4430 has peak performance at a higher AOA than that of thinner airfoils. (which is good because you can't realistically twist the inboard sections enough)

So in conclusion I believe the benefits of using thicker inboard airfoils are three fold. First, you can build a longer blade by using less material, which is the best way to increase power and the drop the $/KWH. Second, the thicker airfoils have a wider range of good AOAs, which better suits them for the wind characteristics at the interior of the blade. Lastly, given the relative wind angles, and realistic construction constraints (max-twist), an increase in efficiency is actually seen with thicker airfoils at the inboard

An argument for thicker inboard airfoils | 53 comments (53 topical)

Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by paradigmdesign on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 09:34:20 AM MST

Make that HAWT, dyslexia is fun :)
"Don't worry about tomorrow, plan for it."


Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by paradigmdesign on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 09:44:51 AM MST




"Don't worry about tomorrow, plan for it."


Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 09:50:29 AM MST

Interesting analysis.

... the dominate function of the inboard sections is structural, not aerodynamic. (i.e. The 20% section is only contains 3% of the wind power but is responsible for transferring approx 99% of the load) ...

Note that the twist for the inboard sections. No one builds blades with segments with a 59 degree twist, or even a 30 degree, it would be very structurally inefficient. Twisted blades are twisted to take advantage of the outermost 60%-70% more effectively, than they are twisted to take advantage of ALL of the wind at all sections.

Two things about strong twist near the hub:

 - It puts material in a good orientation (more fore-and-aft) to support the drag forces from the rest of the blade.

 - It provides a section that also acts as an "airscrew" drag-turbine when the blade is stopped, to provide start-up torque.

Also:  If you're willing to laminate on some extra material near the hub you can still build a big, thin blade with a deep inner section, without the expense of a thick piece of wood the size of the blade that mostly ends up as shavings or sawdust.  (Granted it's more work than carving a thinner blade from a single hunk of wood...)



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by paradigmdesign on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 01:12:55 PM MST

" - It puts material in a good orientation (more fore-and-aft) to support the drag forces from the rest of the blade."

The drag forces are tiny compared to the forces coming in from the tip load, so that should be the primary structeral concern.

"- It provides a section that also acts as an "airscrew" drag-turbine when the blade is stopped, to provide start-up torque."

Which would still benefit from being a thicker airfoil.
"Don't worry about tomorrow, plan for it."
[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by willib on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 11:32:19 AM MST

i could have told ya that.
remember My "Got Root" post ?

i believe the root offers much more than you think , because i couldnt stop the root section from spinning .

 my root had a 21" chord and was 3.75" thick.


Carpe Ventum (seize the wind) One needs faith in the future



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by paradigmdesign on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 12:49:49 PM MST

The numbers for the %span represent the amount of area in each segment.  If anything the numbers are higher for the inside sections compared to real world because most blades are not built to 100% "optimum" cord in the for those sections.

I am arguing for a thicker airfoil, not for super wide chords for inboard sections.  The section you mentioned would have a thickness of %17.85 or in this airfoil set be a NACA 4418.  I am advocating the use of airfoils with 25% or even to 35% thicknesses for the inside sections of the blade.
"Don't worry about tomorrow, plan for it."
[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#30)
by finnsawyer on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 09:00:45 AM MST

Don't confuse torque with power.  Just to set the record straight, the power available at radius R in a small annular ring of width dr is given by:

     P = .5xpxV^3x(2xpixRxdr).

I think the variables are self explanatory.  For a given angle of attack the blade angle will become greater toward the root when following the proper twist, which means more of the lift will be in the direction of rotation.  With the drop off in P, as shown by the equation, a considerably narrower blade would be required to match the power.  This would also have the benefit of reducing drag for a given lift versus drag ratio.  Obviously there are physical constraints.  I gave a formula for making the match, but no one seemed interested.        
GeoM
[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by willib on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 12:01:22 PM MST

this is it right here.

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/4/19/7542/40189

this is a shot of the 18" to 21" chord section, on top of the old root.



the amount of power ,available,in the root is enormous , because the angle of attack is at its greatest ,and because the radius is smallest ..

i've since improved the whole blade , by changing the position of the attaching 3/8" bicycle axle , that i use to hold it to the hub.

and i've dropped the inner 10 percent , because it was interfering with the mini Gen II mount pole , and i didnt want to move it farther back.

so now my ROOT chord is 21" at the longest , if ya recall the inner 10 percent chord was not tapered , just a straight 21"


Carpe Ventum (seize the wind) One needs faith in the future



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by paradigmdesign on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 01:04:46 PM MST

"the amount of power ,available,in the root is enormous , because the angle of attack is at its greatest"

angle of attack = apparent wind angle - twist

so your angle of attack is whatever you set your twist to in comparison to the apparent wind angle, not what the airfoil looks like on the blade.

,and because the radius is smallest .."

You are going to have to explain this one to me, I thought when the radius got larger the ammount of avaliable power increased due to the added area.
"Don't worry about tomorrow, plan for it."
[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by DanB on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 07:20:38 AM MST

Hi WilliB  -
"the amount of power ,available,in the root is enormous , because the angle of attack is at its greatest ,and because the radius is smallest .."

Yes... actually I have to agree with the other comment and totally disagree with your statement here.  The angle of attack should ideally remain the same throughout the blade if the airfoil profile remains the same.

Near the root of the blade the blades are moving very slowly compared to the outer parts of the blade, and this inherently makes them less efficient I think - no matter how perfectly you build the blade near the root, it will extract less power per given amount of swept are than parts of the blades that are moving faster (out near the tips).  Consider that - plus the 'smallest radius' - which also translates into 'smallest swept area' - and I expect the power available from the root of the blade is very small.  The inner 50% of the blade only sweeps 25% of the area, and it is the least efficient part of the blade so I expect that in most cases the inner 50% of the blade contributes much less than 25% of the power.  Getting fancy near the root may help some machines with drag or cogging issues to start up but I'm of the opinion that many folks worry way too much about the root of the blade.  

[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by Dave B on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 11:48:35 AM MST

Just my opinion here. Most applications here are charging batteries with basically no load until cut-in rpm is reached. Any blade design if it reaches this speed and beyond is doing work. The argument against the work involved to create the large drop and twist is therefore strengthened and for most is not perceived as worth the effort. For those sticking more to the charts and have the resources and desire to create blades with greater twist my hat is off to you ! Depending on your application this could make a huge difference in the performance of your system ... or not. Understanding the specific application is the key to selecting design criteria. For most of us at this time we compromise on the design depending on our available resources, abilities and usually the money issue comes into play besides. If you are satisfied with what you have then it is right for you but this is never the only or best way.  Dave B.  

[ Parent ]


Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by willib on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 09:14:16 PM MST

i am finally at the point where i can test the newer improved largest blades that i made a some time ago.
before the miniGenII i only had minigen 1 , and the blades in question so overpowered the tiny alt , that shorting it out did not even slow them down. that is not saying much though ,because Mgen 1 was tiny .

Mini Gen II is a bit stronger , with 16 poles of 7/8" dia by 1/2" mags per rotor and 12 coils of 80 turns of 0.045" diam wire packeged into  8" dia rotors , it does ok, in fact it just made a record < for me > of 133 Watts into a 6volt battery at 390 RPM ( 52 Hz )

any way what i'm getting at is before now i had nothing to test the blades with

and it was way too cold when i finished the mini genII back in january to do much blade testing , but the weather is improving , yesterday was really nice and today was also , mid 60's F (about 18 C).

and work on the data logger is coming along , i'm hoping by the end of tomorrow to have an LCD hooked up to a PIC so i can display some data in real time ,
I would like to display , battery voltage on line 1 , RPM on line 2 . wind speed on line 3 , and current on line 4.
all collected at the same time and stored in a serial EEPROM (which i found in a old pc monitor)

some say that the inner part of the blade does very little work , i would like to know just how much the root contributes , but how...?

when i was making them and tested just the root , the idea was deemed preposterous almost  sacreligious ,or maybe it was my lack of data , that might be what it was ,i dont recall exactly , but i still think that it is the only way to see what the inner part can do ?

what if i have some data this time like wind speed , RPM and current
and  test the inner 20  percent or so , just to see if it produces any power


Carpe Ventum (seize the wind) One needs faith in the future
[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by DanB on Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 05:50:23 AM MST

I suppose if I wanted really test the sort of power you might be getting from the inside of the blade, I'd first want to figure how large the 'whole' blade would be.  Let's say it's 12' diameter and you plan to run at TSR of 6.  

I'd design the whole blade, and then build just the root section - say the inner 1/3 - so I would build a 4' diameter blade (it would be the root basically).  You would need to load it up under testing to TSR of about 2.

At best - even assuming that the inner part was just as efficient running so slowly as the outer part is, then the inner 4' is going to sweep about 15 square feet.  The whole blade sweeps 113 square feet  - so at best that inner part is going to contribute about 10%.  I think it likely contributes much less because it's so slow and the air near the hub has to be pretty disturbed.  This is where some folks probably figure a spinner helps - and maybe it does, but I've not seen much evidence to suggest that.

I have no doubt that optimizing that area helps  -  I just think it's probably very small.  Forgetting about it all together and adding a couple inches to the tips would likely yield lots more power.

The interesting point is the comment(with the neat pictures) that suggests turbulance from teh root interferes with the rest of the blade - that may be the case, it's interesting.

[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#53)
by finnsawyer on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 08:34:23 AM MST

I find it interesting that people are so willing to throw away that 25% of the power.  When I suggest a potential method for capturing that power and adding an additional 15 - 22% it seems that their eyes must glaze over.  Apparently they don't believe that the air speeding up in going around a sphere (or cylinder) would result in any useful effect.  Well, here's something to think about when lying awake at night.  Why is the leading edge of an air foil rounded rather than being brought to a 'knife edge' like the trailing edge?
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#55)
by dustind on Sun Jul 01, 2007 at 07:46:04 PM MST

So that the airfoil can operate over a wide range of angles of attack.

[ Parent ]


Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by SamoaPower on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:57:29 PM MST

Good stuff paradigmdesign.

It was guaranteed, that with a post like this, that willib would be there, with pictures, to show off his silly "foam art" blades. To my knowledge, he still hasn't posted any output measurements. "enormous power" indeed!

I think you might be led astray somewhat by JavaFoil, in that it doesn't show flow separation (stall), with the attendent dramatic drop in L/D, which should occur somewhere around 12 degrees AOA. I believe JavaFoil's author also says something about this. I think you should consider the data above 12 degrees AOA questionable at best.

I agree with your first conclusion about the structural benefits but have to question the other two.

If the blade angle is correct for the TSR and the AOA is at best L/D, no improvement can be made using a thicker section. Yes, the broader curve for the thicker section can help errors but only up to a few degrees. Much more serious is the 25% loss in L/D.

What are the different wind characteristics at the smaller radii that you're concerned about, assuming you don't start the airfoil until 20-25% radius?

I question your third conclusion for the same reasons. Build it right and you will have a loss with the thicker section. I really don't see the construction constraints unless you feel you have to build with 2-by lumber or some such.

By the way, are you including a correction factor to AOA for blade aspect ratio in your model?

I'm anxious to hear how your composite blades work out in the end.



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by willib on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 06:30:58 PM MST

.

whatever

.


Carpe Ventum (seize the wind) One needs faith in the future
[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by paradigmdesign on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 05:57:04 AM MST

Don't let it get to you.  If we all worked on the same project, and had the same opinions about design, this site would be really boaring.  And if we were all done with our projects already, their would be no need for us to keep posting on this site.  
"Don't worry about tomorrow, plan for it."
[ Parent ]


Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#42)
by finnsawyer on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 08:34:26 AM MST

"Don't let it get to you.  If we all worked on the same project, and had the same opinions about design, this site would be really boaring."

Hmm?  So, the site would become a mass of wild pigs?  Interesting!  Hey, it's a slow day.  Chuckle.
GeoM
[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#45)
by paradigmdesign on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 06:33:01 AM MST

I can't spell, I thought this wouldn't be a secret by now.
"Don't worry about tomorrow, plan for it."
[ Parent ]


Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#46)
by finnsawyer on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 08:11:12 AM MST

I'll let you in on a secret.  Scoop has a spell checker, and one can still buy dictionaries.  The word "boaring" would have been flagged by the spell checker.
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by paradigmdesign on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 05:50:47 AM MST

"I think you might be led astray somewhat by JavaFoil, in that it doesn't show flow separation (stall), with the attendent dramatic drop in L/D, which should occur somewhere around 12 degrees AOA. I believe JavaFoil's author also says something about this. I think you should consider the data above 12 degrees AOA questionable at best."

Are you talking about the fact that in the program it lists the ploar as Cl-Cd not Cd/Cd?  In the output text it has it listed the latter way, which is where those curves came from.  But I do know that, from a paper I read, that basicially the thicker airfoils don't compute as accurately as their thinner bretheren, so you may be correct.

"If the blade angle is correct for the TSR and the AOA is at best L/D, no improvement can be made using a thicker section. Yes, the broader curve for the thicker section can help errors but only up to a few degrees. Much more serious is the 25% loss in L/D."

That is true, but for this paper atleast it was assumed blades were not constructed with a full twist.  Also the main crux of this paper was really the first section, explaining how a structurally strong inboard section was beneficial, and the latter sections are just explaining other "benefits" of that design method.  i.e. One would be better off building their blades 1-2% longer than trying to squeeze every last watt out of a section that is only creating 3% or 5% of the output in the first place.
"Don't worry about tomorrow, plan for it."
[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by SamoaPower on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 07:13:34 AM MST

"Are you talking about the fact that in the program it lists the ploar as Cl-Cd not Cd/Cd?"

No, I'm talking about your presented graph. I would expect to see a rather sudden drop in Cl/Cd at the flow separation point AOA which is when the blade stalls.

The program author states on his web page, "If you analyze an airfoil beyond stall, the results will be quite inaccurate."

I expect the 44xx stalls somewhere around 12 degrees AOA. Your graph goes to 20 degrees AOA so I wouldn't trust the data from 12 to 20.

[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by rotornuts on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 09:16:09 PM MST

My thoughts....

While I would have to agree that the overall power potential of the root area compared to the rest of the rotor plane is significantly less I do firmly believe that this area has a very significant effect on the entire rotors performance. If you would look at the images below.

 

As you can see the root area can create a great deal of turbulence, I would argue that the turbulent wake in itself is detrimental to global airflow as it must impede the flow of the air adjacent and preceding it and as a consequence the effect must propagate in a diminishing fashion forward and outward towards the "power" producing areas of the blade. Any reduction of turbulence in the root area must be beneficial.

The next image is the real killer in my mind. The effect is just like washout in an airplane wing.



As you can see the turbulent air has a habit of seeking out the space created by the separation bubble at the trailing edge and must be contributing to its size and the distance it propagates "up" the trailing edge. All this can only mean increased drag and decreased lift and very likely a decreased stall angle.

I would say that the root is very important not necessarily because of the power it can produce but due to the damage it can do. Aside from plain functional blade design any move to improve root design should include a view to decreasing the production of turbulence or the isolation of turbulence through the use of maybe vortex generators or stall fences. A sinusoidal trailing edge may also help.

I may as well include my impression of a wide root blade where the base of the root is perpendicular to the leading edge.



Just my thoughts.

Mike



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#31)
by finnsawyer on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 09:09:38 AM MST

One wonders what the result would be if the blades were embedded in a tear dropped shape that extended out to 20 - 30 percent of the radius with the proper air foil shape extending right to surface of the tear drop.  There is no particular reason to use the hub designs currently in use.  If the use of such a hub would contribute to better laminar flow it could be useful.  I have in the past advocated such an approach based on the solution for fluid flow around a sphere.
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#35)
by RP on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 03:53:31 PM MST

Do you mean something like this?

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/4/18/41516/1677

[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#38)
by finnsawyer on Sat Mar 31, 2007 at 07:45:51 AM MST

Yes.  My comments basically spell out my ideas.  While we can be fairly confident of the laminar flow around the front half of the sphere, we cannot assume the solution will be valid for the rear half.  That's why the proposed tear drop shape.  The 50%speed up of air around the hemisphere means we need to redo the blade twist.  We will have greater twist.  The advantage would be that if it works we can get 22% more power from the same incident wind speed, and we get to use one half as long working air foil sections.  With a sphere of 30% of the radius we would get 15% more power.  Wind tunnel tests along these ideas would be useful.

As you may be aware, there has been some controversy lately about a pressure build up in front of the blade plane of a wind turbine.  Supposedly, Bernoulli's Equation does not apply across the blades.  It does apply for a static air foil.  One could envision a wind tunnel test where the air foil is allowed to rise very slowly.  In that case the air flow should not be affected, but a finite amount of work would be done.  There are different versions of Bernoulli's Equation based on different initial assumptions.  For instance, there is one that adds in the effect of gravitational potential.  I'll leave it there for people to comment, if they wish.
GeoM
[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#47)
by paradigmdesign on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 11:26:25 AM MST

"There is no particular reason to use the hub designs currently in use."

I assume you are talking about the shape i.e. aerodynamics, and not the hub design itself.  I belive all you would end up doing with a design like that is wasting alot of materials in the hub, create extra loads on the tower, and rob power from the rest of the blades (creating unnessisary turbliance).  Any wind that is re-routed by the hub will be slowed, and will slow any wind that it comes in contact with (i.e. turblience).
"Don't worry about tomorrow, plan for it."
[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#48)
by finnsawyer on Sat Apr 07, 2007 at 09:28:16 AM MST

Actually, any time wind is "rerouted by" an object it is sped up as it passes the object.  This is true whether the object is a flat disk or a sphere.  I have discussed this many times.  There is a mathematical solution for fluid flow around a sphere.  You might look into it.  Of course, there are plenty of examples of such an effect in the real world, the most obvious of which is the effect of buildings.  And any time the air speeds up, it can provide more power.  You have to exert more force (do more work) to walk against the wind when between the buildings, than you would in a open field.  If the air did slow up when going around an object it would pile up with this bubble of slowed up air expanding without limit.  Nature doesn't allow that.    
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#49)
by paradigmdesign on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 05:42:01 PM MST

"You have to exert more force (do more work) to walk against the wind when between the buildings, than you would in a open field.  "

Don't confuse air speed with air pressure.  I belive you will find that the wind is actually moves faster over a field than through buildings.

"If the air did slow up when going around an object it would pile up with this bubble of slowed up air expanding without limit."

It does build up pressure at the front of the building, but it does not build up forever because the low pressure that is created  on the other side gives the air somewhere to go.  Your design is not like the high pressure that is seen between buildings, but would be like putting turbines behind a building on the corners.  To get the aerodynamic affect that you are describing you would need a ducted fan, with the goal of keeping high pressure on the blades.
"Don't worry about tomorrow, plan for it."
[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#50)
by finnsawyer on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 07:56:54 AM MST

So, how does an foil air work?  You can't have it many different ways.  There is only one physics.  It applies the same to air flow past air foils and around objects.  It is known from wind tunnel tests that the air over the top surface of an air foil speeds up, resulting in a lower net pressure along the top surface than along the bottom surface.  And lest you say that that is only a result of the geometry, I'd like to point out that acrobatic air planes use an air foil design that has positive camber on both surfaces.  Such an air foil will have zero lift at a zero angle of attack, but will exhibit usable lift at both positive and negative angles of attack, again due to faster moving air along the 'top' surface.  As I mentioned there are mathematical solutions for fluid flow around around at least two shapes, a sphere and a cylinder.  In the case of a sphere the speed up is 50%, and in the cylinder it is 100% just above the surface.  So, the air speeds up as it goes around trees or buildings or whatever.  The lower pressure area on the back side of the object comes about due to the lower pressure (venturi effect) of the fast moving air passing by.  This effect causes a 'swirling' of the air behind the object resulting in the lower pressure.  You have to keep in mind that Bernoulli's Equation applies to all regions of the air flow, since no external work is done.  If the air behind the object were not set in motion by the venturi effect, the pressure behind the object would be as great as the pressure in front, violating the actual physics.  As far as turbulence is concerned, air flow need not be turbulent.  I watched snow being blown of off a triangular shaped snow bank one time where the air slowed down and spread in an obvious laminar manner for several feet down wind of the bank.  I was surprised as I expected a vortice, but that's what it did.  
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#40)
by finnsawyer on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 09:30:10 AM MST

Another thing that appears to be shown by the first picture is the tip votices.  If we accept that these vortices rob the mill of power, then we can see their effect extends quite a way down the blades.  It might have helped if they had used another color for the turbulence caused by the tip vortices.  
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by kamikaze on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 09:22:49 PM MST

Hi,
I'm not sure that its true that no one uses the full amount of blade twist. Certainly in my case its not true. My latest blade design includes more than 50 degrees of twist. I decided to try a set of blades with full twist because, apart from the difficulty making them, I could see no reason why not. They might actually be surprizingly good! I don't know for sure yet because they are not quite finished.

Regarding aerofoil thickness, I believe you are basically right to use a thicker inner section. The aerofoil sections shoud transition from relatively thick, low speed sections with large radius leading edge, at the root, and ending up as a relatively thin high speed section near the tip. However, my design with 6 blades has a relatively low TSR, so the blades have relatively thick sections even at the tip.

Unfortunately I don't have any test data yet to support my design. Hopefully I'll have it within a month.

Regards,

Kamikaze

I have included 2 CAD renderings of the design.





Inter Ventos Laboramus ( in the winds we work )



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by paradigmdesign on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 05:18:25 AM MST

I knew I should have put the no-one in "  ",

Interesting looking blades, plus nice renderings, they (the renderings) put mine to shame.

I should have mentioned that I am working in composite blades not wood.  I omitted that fact from the first right-up because I belive the argument holds true for both wood and composites.

I must ask, how were you planning on building those blades (wood/glass/other)?
"Don't worry about tomorrow, plan for it."
[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by kamikaze on Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 12:34:04 AM MST

Hi,
My first blades were an epoxy composite poured into an rtv silicone mould made from a wooden pattern. The blades pictured are being made by a plastics company. I sent them the cad file, and they made a pattern using a cnc router and then produced a urethane mould. The blades are made by reaction injection moulding (rim) and include chopped glass fibres. Rim moulding produces a lightweight blade of a similar density to pine.
Just heard today that the blades are ready and should arrive in a few days. Will post results soon.

Cheers

Inter Ventos Laboramus ( in the winds we work )
[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by paradigmdesign on Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 05:36:19 AM MST

Cool stuff.  I wish I had a $120,000 CNC router.  I must say, your blades would have been a pain to make a pattern for by hand!!  Keep us posted, interesting stuff.
"Don't worry about tomorrow, plan for it."
[ Parent ]


Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#27)
by BigBreaker on Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 06:40:21 AM MST

check out cnczone.com and see how to make one for ~$3k.

[ Parent ]


Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by Stonebrain on Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 03:43:59 AM MST

Hi kamikaze

I like your design,
specialy the bladetips bended backwards.

I guess the design near the tip must be quite problematic because the airflow
near the tip is not perpendicalar to the blade.How did you solve this problem.

What cadprogram do you have to be able to design tapered-twisted-bended blades?

These blades must cost a small fortune if it is made by industrie in just one exemplaire.

Looking forward to the result

cheers,
stonebrain


[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by paradigmdesign on Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 05:20:23 AM MST

"These blades must cost a small fortune if it is made by industrie in just one exemplaire."

For some reason, I don't think he is building just one set.
"Don't worry about tomorrow, plan for it."
[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#28)
by kamikaze on Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 07:34:27 PM MST

Hi Stonebrain.

My CAD software is Autodesk Inventor. The blade design is influenced by modern turboprop blade design, where noise reduction is important.

To make the CAD file I draw the outline on paper and draw lines from leading edge to trailing edge every couple of centimetres from root to tip. I then pick suitable aerofoil sections , measure each chord line, and scale the section to fit. You end up with a series of "ribs" for the entire blade. I then create a new CAD part starting with root rib 1 and add sketch planes every 2 cms. I tend to sketch the aerofoil sections using splines, then copy and paste that rib to the next sketch plane, and modify it to fit.

To achieve sweepback curve, I create a sketch on a perpendicular plane which equates to the planform of the blade. I then sketch the outline of the "flattened" blade to the desired shape, ensuring the leading and trailing edges of the ribs connect with the outlines.

I then calculate the twist based on the desired TSR, and the angle at each rib station. The rib sketches are then rotated by the respective angles. The rotation point can be the mid point of the rib, or 1/3 chord length from the leading edge, or virtually any other point within the rib to achieve the result you want.

Finally the CAD solid is generated by a loft extrusion using all the ribs.It's all quite time consuming but so far I can't think of an easier way.

Yes the blades are very expensive, but I have purchased a new cnc mill with 4th axis
(Tormach PCNC1100) which should save me a bundle for future designs.

Regards,
Kamikaze

Inter Ventos Laboramus ( in the winds we work )
[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#29)
by paradigmdesign on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 08:39:55 AM MST

Have you looked at any of the LWST (Low Wind Speed Turbine) / STAR (Swept Twist Adaptive Rotor) projects?  It is basicially what you are building except it has direct fiberglass reinforcement, and has a little less sweep.  Apparently these blades are being developed for lower wind regimes, to lower the cost of turbine blades by reducing the tip load by twisting out of the wind twords feather durring a wind gusts.  Interesting stuff.
"Don't worry about tomorrow, plan for it."
[ Parent ]


Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#43)
by Nando on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 07:53:55 PM MST

Can you direct me to the web page to read such project ?.

Nando

[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#44)
by paradigmdesign on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 06:28:03 AM MST

http://www.sandia.gov/news/resources/releases/2007/blade.html

or

Google
+
STAR LWST Knight and Carver
"Don't worry about tomorrow, plan for it."
[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#33)
by Stonebrain on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 10:09:10 AM MST

Thanks kamikaze,
I roughly get it.
I purchased a cadprogram(varicad,better mention it),not really cheap.

Too late I discovered that lofting between different shaped profiles,and different orientated profiles was impossible.I feel ripped off.

cheers,
stonebrain

[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#34)
by wdyasq on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 01:12:51 PM MST

Just a good CAD program - RHINO3D - you can loft and do a lot more with it.

ROn
Adventure is just bad planning." -- Roald Amundsen
[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#32)
by hvirtane on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 09:56:13 AM MST

That looks really good.

Which kind of airfoil are you using?

- Hannu

[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#36)
by kamikaze on Sat Mar 31, 2007 at 02:46:39 AM MST

Hi Hannu,

To be honest I just draw the aerofoils that look right, based on instinct I guess.

I know its slightly off topic, but here are 2 pics of the flyweight governor I use for the pitch mechanism. One is a CAD rendering and the other the actual prototype.



Cheers
Inter Ventos Laboramus ( in the winds we work )
[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#37)
by willib on Sat Mar 31, 2007 at 05:07:25 AM MST

Holy crap dude...
very nice!!


Carpe Ventum (seize the wind) One needs faith in the future
[ Parent ]


Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#54)
by Rob Beckers on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 08:16:24 AM MST

Kamikaze, that is absolutely beautiful! The thought of mechanical art comes to mind...

I've been looking through your photo album and have a number of questions regarding your alternator, wind turbine, and tools of the trade. I'd be happy to post here, but it may be more appropriate to take it offline. If you could be so kind to drop me a line at Rob-at-solacity-dot-com I would very much appreciate it!

Thank you!

-Rob-

[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#39)
by hvirtane on Sat Mar 31, 2007 at 09:34:48 AM MST

To be honest I just draw the aerofoils that look right, based on instinct I guess.

You put so much effort on the machine that.. in your case I definitely would use a tested airfoil. My choice in this case would be K2 or something quite similar.

I know its slightly off topic, but here are 2 pics of the flyweight governor I use for the pitch mechanism. One is a CAD rendering and the other the actual prototype.

It is really impressive. Are you selling those drawings?


[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#41)
by kamikaze on Sun Apr 01, 2007 at 02:38:52 PM MST

Thanks for the advice. I'll have a look at that aerofoil.

No I'm not selling the drawings. At the moment I'm trying to simplify the design, and at a later stage once I'm happy it all works properly, I'll share the design on this site.

Kamikaze
Inter Ventos Laboramus ( in the winds we work )
[ Parent ]



Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#51)
by s4w2099 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 07:34:17 PM MST

I think that it would work. Ive seen this design in a radiator fan that I have. I do not know much about the subject but it looks interesting I would love to see a prototype working.

[ Parent ]


Re: An argument for thicker inboard airfoils (3.00 / 0) (#52)
by s4w2099 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 07:50:56 PM MST

well, almost, The tips are not pointy in mine.

[ Parent ]


An argument for thicker inboard airfoils | 53 comments (53 topical)
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