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Two Crashed Wind Turbines!


By Shadow, Section Wind
Posted on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 04:12:23 AM MST
Looking for ideas for 48 volt turbine.

About ten days or so ago I lost the first wind turbine I built. It seemed to cook the stator then blades overspeduntil either hitting the tower or the tail. So far I've found 17 magnets.
     And this morning I lost my other one, The "Firepower" one. I've been experimenting with it for a week or so trying to get it out of stall. I found a few issues with it, I dont know if I had the off set right for the tail, and also the pipe over pipe pivot for the tail had spread so when the tail was in the relaxed stage it went over center so was not keeping the blades straight into the wind until the wind was strong enough to move the tail slightly towards furl, then the blades would pick up some speed until the tail settled down again then it would slow.
      So I added about1.6 ohms of resistance that would get up some speed to give 5-6 amps in most winds, but when the blades did hook up it would turn the nichrome wire the brightest orange and the blades would be scary! All I needed to do was connect a piece of # 10 wire parrallel with the Nichrome wire and that would put it back into stall and slow it down. And no matter how strong thw wind was, it wouldnt come out of stall with that wire connected. Until today... It was over 30 amps in 70 km winds, I connect the bypass wire and it got real warm and things dident slow down. I looked up to see a big chunk of stator hanging! And the blades, all 14 foot  diameter were picking up speed!What a test on my tower! The turbine is mounted on a piece of 2 3/8 oil field pipe that sticks up out of the top of the tower about 5 feet,so as the wind gusted the pipe bends back lifting the blades away from the tower. This went on for 3 solid hours with wind getting worse. Finally the blades literally pulled apart from the root, leaving about 6 inches of root on each blade. I found one, but havent found the other two!
         During some testing during the week, when I was getting 15 plus amps I also noticed the volts before going into the battery were often over 70 and as high as 77. That was measured before the nichrome resistance wire. Is this normal ? Isnt that fairly high? I realize the battery pulls that voltage down , just seems excessive. Maybe Delta is the way to go. So tonite I started laminating a set of 6 foot blades. Any ideas to make an ideal 48 volt wind turbine? Were 3 weeks off the grid and down by two wind turbines already. Both these machines appeared to be furling, but continued to increase in power.
Two Crashed Wind Turbines! | 17 comments (17 topical)

Re: Two Crashed Wind Turbines! (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by hiker on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 09:37:27 PM MST

just a quick google search brought this up....

        http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/1/25/16542/0712
WILD IN ALASKA



Re: Two Crashed Wind Turbines! (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by SparWeb on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 09:39:17 PM MST

Oh no!  Sounds like you had to run for cover!

It's bad enough for us tinkerers to suffer an exploding mill, but when you live off-grid it must hit you hard.

I sincerely hope you can get back up & running soon.  And soon enough to avoid missing the NHL playoffs (unless you're an Oilers fan).

If you're really in dire straits, I've got a 1kW motor conversion on my work bench collecting dust.

Steven Fahey



Re: Two Crashed Wind Turbines! (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Flux on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 12:51:43 AM MST

Sorry to hear about your misfortunes.

I suspect you had several things wrong but it is always hard to discover what is happening by telepathy.

Your description does indeed seem like too little offset. I don't think the tail going beyond centre comes into the argument, to me it seems a simple case of wind seeking.

I bet that thing has never furled, it must have been stalling far worse than the figures you gave suggest and it has been running stall protected.

Normally the resistors to bring it out of stall are not very critical, it just runs up faster, produces more power at lower speed and furls earlier. I think you haven't been furling so once you clear the stall it runs up and the wind seeking force pulls you hard into the wind. If the offset is too small it will never furl.

It may have never got away in the high winds from stall ( but it may have done). Once you add resistance to let it out of stall then you are entirely at the mercy of furling to protect it and the blades may have enough power to overcome the alternator with the resistor shorted.

Regarding the 70v, that seems perfectly normal for a small bit of resistance used to prevent stall. It will not bother the batteries. I often suggest reclaiming this series loss as heat if you can use it.

It is not possible to match things by direct connection without having to revert to resistance loss. This large loss is far better dissipated in a resistor than in the stator. If you got the winding right by conventional means you would be having the same volt drop in the stator winding. You probably still have half of this in the stator.

If you track the prop at peak tsr the speed needs to rise with wind speed so if you cut in at 50v at 8 mph you would have 200v at 32 mph if there were no internal resistance.

I am not sure what happened to the first machine, stator burn out would not lead to open circuit. Shorted coils would have brought it to stall. My guess is that it shed the magnets, generated less power and run away. Alternative theory is that the magnets got hot and demagnetised and caused the run away, then shed from overspeed.

If they are demagnetised it may have been heat failure, if they are strong then I think CF got the better of your fixing method. Stator may be burnt but shouldn't be open circuit and at the moment of failure it would not have been seriously shorted.

Check for open circuit diodes in the rectifier as another cause of failure.

Use very safe offset figures, most of these things run very stalled and even what ought to be safe may be on the small side if you get away from stall.

With a good big offset you will need to make the tail go beyond centre to keep it in the wind, it doesn't look pretty with the tail over at about 30 deg away from furl but it is a small price to pay for a safe offset.

I can't see what you would gain from delta except more low wind losses. There is some case for star/delta change but the gain comes at the cost of more control gear and the reward is not that great.

I still wonder if you had smaller angles on the blades than Dan used, I can't see why you stalled so badly.

Flux



Re: Two Crashed Wind Turbines! (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by seanchan00 on Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 05:05:51 PM MST

Hi Flux,

How do one see whether it is stalled when the wind is blowing hard and the blade seems to be fast and the current goes up as the blade speeds up. I have wind that mostly comes in changing directions and in gusts. My ammeter steadily shows 2 to 4 amps then with the gusts goes up beyond 10 but soon the wind will change direction then the reading will come down till the blades found the wind again then the reading goes up. I have generally poor inland winds here esp now during the intermonsoon period.

SeanChan.

[ Parent ]



Re: Two Crashed Wind Turbines! (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by Flux on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 12:05:08 AM MST

Seanchan

If the blades speed up and the current goes up when a gust comes then you will not be stalling badly. If you are stalled then the blades don't speed up significantly and the current doesn't rise with the gusts.

Hard stall will result in almost constant output above a certain level. Slight stall may result in less than the increase that you should be seeing.

You seem to be in a very poor wind area so even the gusts you see may not be a very significant increase in wind speed. The simplest test for stall is to raise the operating voltage and see what happens. If you work at 12v normally and you add an additional 6v battery and the POWER into 18v is higher than into 12v then you are stalled ( current may not be higher but power will, volts x amps). If 24v system add 12v.

If there is stall from the cut in point then it is due to having too low a cut in speed and the best cure is to open the air gap and raise the speed. If it works well in low winds but goes into stall as the wind rises then the best cure is to add resistance in the line. It has negligible effect near cut in but raises the speed in higher winds.

You have a large prop to capture the low wind and I think it extremely unlikely, that you will benefit from series resistance, but if you see an improvement with the added volts then I would raise the cut in speed.

When you are trying to capture something from the lowest possible wind speed then you will need to cut in slower than anyone in a normal wind area. The energy in very low winds is tiny and you need a big prop to do any good. In better wind areas you have to consider the trade off in total energy capture for the gain of a few watt hrs a day from low winds. This is again influenced by how many hours those low winds blow in a day.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Two Crashed Wind Turbines! (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by coldspot on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 02:07:38 AM MST

Shadow-
"I lost my other one, The "Firepower" one"
^#%&^%$#@ !!!!!!!!!
Now what am I going to use as background for my desktop, ????????
Thats been my back ground on-n-off,
 Mostly ON since you posted the pictures of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I really liked the "look" of that one!
(Sort of a goal I'd set for myself)
I'm sorry about your losses, that really sucks!!
Glad your tower stood-up to the powers that the turbine didn't.
Flux-
"Offset"
So, the standby rule of,
 "half inch of for each foot of Rotor Diameter".
Not going to be enough ??????
Whats your thoughts for a better rule to use then????????
I've read that if less than 4% rotor Diameter it'll never furl.




Re: Two Crashed Wind Turbines! (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Flux on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 02:52:06 AM MST

Half an inch per foot is a little over the 4% and for normal stall operation seems adequate for normal blades.

This factor is very dependent on the blades, Bergey seem to manage with about half this. Others run into trouble close to the 4%. I wish I could give you a definite answer but people carve their blades differently.

I use faster speeds with a boost converter and still manage with 1/2" per foot. Not sure what Shadow used and not sure of the tail weight. All these plywood tails are much heavier than mine. If it did furl it may have been at far too high a speed but I suspect it didn't furl.

Unless you have actually met this wind seeking thing it is hard to realise that it doesn't furl, as I have said before the tail runs at quite an angle but the prop stays straight into the wind.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Two Crashed Wind Turbines! (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Shadow on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 06:46:38 AM MST

Heres a couple pics of the offset I used.


I always thoughtI had too much offset.

.
 The tail always seemed to sit at a goofy angle, then took a breeze to get it to come up straight.

.
    Yes, the magnets I found are very weak, so over heating may have been an issue in the first one.



Re: Two Crashed Wind Turbines! (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Flux on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 07:02:13 AM MST

Difficult to tell without some size reference. That offset looks about 4", if so it should be ok for about 8ft prop.

This tail offset thing always happens with a decent offset. It really makes very little difference if the tail is straight and the prop runs at 30 deg to the wind. It looks odd with tail offset to 30 deg but has no other ill effect.

Safety in furling is far more important than tracking directly into the wind as long as it is not more than 30 deg out.

When you dismantle the one that shed magnets you may find that there has been a rub between magnets and stator, this generates enough heat to demagnetise things fairly quickly at full power when there is a strong demagnetising field. I can't rule out direct heating of the magnets from stator heat radiation but with all the windage it seems unlikely as you would need magnet temperatures near 80 degC.

Good detective work at this stage will give you lots of useful information for improvements.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Two Crashed Wind Turbines! (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by DanB on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 08:40:00 AM MST

Sorry to hear about this one Shadow.
Can you remind us about what size magnets you used, how many - and the details about how you wound this alternator?

1.6 ohms inline with a 14' machine seems like a lot to me to get it out of stall.  I wonder if your machine had fairly high resistance to begin with and too low a cutin speed.  I would add resistance to a machine that was working pretty well in lower winds but stalling in the higher winds.  If you were performing badly allready in low winds then adding resistance (especially so much resistance) could let it run away in high winds and significantly delay furling I'd think.



Re: Two Crashed Wind Turbines! (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Flux on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 09:05:31 AM MST

Dan I did check his figures once and couldn't see any reason for the serious stall. I had to take the figures as given and I strongly suspect the cut in was slower than he thought. They all fall for the too low a cut in speed thinking that it will increase output whereas it reduces it over the sensible working speed, causes more stall and more stator heating.

In this case it still should have been ok, if he was seeing 30A at fully charged 48v battery then it was by no means running away and should have furled safely even if at a higher wind speed than intended. I am sure it has never furled and survived previously in bad stall.

If he can give all the details again we can check the figures. I seem to remember an issue with stall from day one on a low test tower.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Two Crashed Wind Turbines! (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Shadow on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 09:22:37 AM MST

Thanks Dan,
       This machine I used 3 inch by 1 by 1/2 thick magnets, 12/9 dual rotor. I wound 110 turns of 15.5 awg wired in star. 14 foot prop. Cut in was around 125 rpm.I messed around last week with different lengths of Nichrome wire for resistance, to short of piece would get hot and mill would speed up to much, to long and it would not even get warm. I settled on a piece about 6 inches (of coils). It showed 1.6 ohms on the meter.Warm it showed about 4 amps,in 15 mph winds.It might run at that all day...or for no apparent reason the blades would pick up speed and climb to 12 -15 amps without a noticable wind increase. The resistance wire would turn orange,but often it would be short lived and slow back down. Or I could instantly slow it back down by jumping a wire across the resistance.And as I stated no amount of wind would take it any faster. It would run all day in high winds, tail fully furled, blades never changing speeds, showing 2-3 amps. So yesterday I was too late slowing it down, by the time I hooed up the jumper wire the stator was too hot I think.
   As for the first one showing rub marks as Flux mentioned, there are no rub marks as the stator completely burned, I'm finding black melted coils all over the yard.
   And the one yesterday,Its too windy yetlay the towers down, but it appears the 3 inch magnets are still intact. Some coils have dropped down but most appear to still have their coating on.
     I'm definatley going to design a brake of some sort. I could have easily saved the blades yesterday by stopping it. Instead of watching helplessly until centrifugal force took over.

       The first turbine was 12/9 2 by1 by 1/2 magnets 140 turns of # 17 wire 12 foot prop. I'd like to rebuild both with 12 foot props just havent decided on coils or wire gauge. I'll go with the three inch magnets if they are salvagable.But open for advice. Thanks

[ Parent ]



Re: Two Crashed Wind Turbines! (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Flux on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 10:32:10 AM MST

Shadow  I have run your figures again for both of those machines. I suspect you used high grade magnets ( N40 or better) or your stator is very thin. You seem to be running at fairly high flux density.

The big machine looks to be about 2 ohms stator resistance and the other one about 3 ohms. With cut in at 7 mph ( sorry I cant think in terms of your kph ) you should be coming in at tsr 8.5 ish. That would seem pretty normal. The only reason I can see for your bad stall is either that your claimed cut in speed is wrong (which I suspect is not the case unless you have N50 or better) or what I suspected before and that your prop is not tsr6 but nearer tsr8.

If the cut in is right and tsr is right I can't see why you are stalling so badly.

In any case the one that burnt out was either not stalling like the other or you managed to push it hard enough in stall to burn it out. I suspect that the big one should have survived comfortably at 1000W and the small one at about 750. Sort of 3 year survival should have brought these figures up to 1500W and 1kW.

This is pretty good indication that you didn't furl at any sensible wind speed or you are miles out with your current measurements.

You say they were not controlling power with the tail fully furled. This is suspicious as most machines drop power significantly as the tail goes beyond 70 deg.

There is not a lot of point in guessing at this stage, when you can get them down, measure those offsets. Also if there is enough of the props remaining can you double check those angles ( 3 deg at tip 6 deg at half radius )

I still cant see why stall is so bad but the burn out certainly wasn't caused by stall that was caused by output beyond the stator's capability. I assume if it was that badly burnt you melted the solder connections and went open circuit.

Without re magnetising I think the magnets are not going to be any good. Unless you have new ones to compare them with you had better assume the worst or try a test coil and we can deduce from that how much flux is left.

Magnetising is an expert job with high energy capacitor discharge equipment and you may struggle to find someone.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Two Crashed Wind Turbines! (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by harrie on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 03:03:47 PM MST

Sorry to hear about the crash, its bad enough to lose one, but than two!!!!. Im sure you will get things worked out and get them flying again, I think we all learn from our mistakes. I sure wish someone would come up with a good failsafe break too, Im still happy with my 18 foot, I have not shut it down sence Sept, It still runs in stall at 40 RPM at 12 volts, puting out from 2 to 7 amps almost continueous night and day with very low winds, and also very high winds. I love it.



Re: Two Crashed Wind Turbines! (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by jmk on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 08:30:29 PM MST

 Sorry to here the bad news. I thought the fire power was the coolest, or should I say hottest looking mill on the site. I hope you get up and running soon with the bugs all worked out.
jmk


Re: Two Crashed Wind Turbines! (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by willib on Sat Mar 31, 2007 at 05:06:37 PM MST

If there is anything we can do , just say so ?
i have a program to calculate coil dimensions , dia. ,width ,resistance,number or turns , ect , but its for round coils only


Carpe Ventum (seize the wind)


Re: Two Crashed Wind Turbines! (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by coldspot on Sat May 26, 2007 at 12:05:23 PM MST

willib-
"a program to calculate coil dimensions"
Have you shared this with us ?
Can it be used by, "fairly normal" people ???
:)


[ Parent ]


Two Crashed Wind Turbines! | 17 comments (17 topical)
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