Go to Otherpower.com Home Page Go to Forcefield Shopping Cart Go to Wondermagnet.com Home Page
Front Page - [Homebrewed Electricity-- (wind) (solar) (hydro) (steam) (controls) (storage) (mechanical)] - Classifieds - Site News
Everything - Newbies - [Remote Living-- (housing) (heat) (light) (water)] - Reviews - Diaries - Our Products
Make your own shunt resistor or buy one?


By David HK, Section Mechanical
Posted on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 07:12:10 AM MST
Looking for ideas and suggestions

I spent an entire afternoon searching Other Power and found that the subject of shunt resistors has come up on previous occasions. Some of the information is useful background, but lacks depth.

Therefore may I enquire if anyone has experience of making their own shunt resistor?

The reason I am enquiring is that I am planning to build the PICAXE 08M monitor as explained on The Old Backshed web site.

I have found one web site that does suggest it is possible to build one. This site in question does give some mathematical equations, but unfortunately the author throws in one or two assumed figures (values) without adequately explaining how they are derived.

The requirement is for 0.1 Ohms, DC volts 12/24, Load 20 Amps?

Other websites belong to manufacturers of shunts and even these tend to be a bit sparse on information. I would be happy to purchase one if a suitable company can be recommended.

Out of curiosity I took out my DVM this morning and put the terminals across a 300mm piece of copper water (15mm o/d) and obtained a reading of 0.01 Ohms.

Comments would be read with interest.

David HK

Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? | 24 comments (24 topical)

Re: Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Spelljammer on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 12:23:01 AM MST

David,

A simple solution is to just use a cheap multimeter and a stainless steel bolt.
I'm actually selling a book about homemade shunts so I don't want to give away all the good stuff ( http://www.PoorMansGuides.com ) but here is a pic to help you get started with a 800 amp  1mv/amp shunt.  So, set your meter to mv and hook to the shunt.  And 800 amps would read 800 milivolts.




Spelljammer




Re: Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 01:58:27 PM MST

You don't want to put the sense wires and the load wires under the same nuts - or even share a nut.  That puts the threads and nut/lug resistance in series with that of the bar.

Use eight nuts.  And put the sense pickoffs a tad outside the power lugs (to avoid flexing and corrosion of their connection due to heat variations).

[ Parent ]



Re: Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by Spelljammer on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 02:02:53 PM MST

Actually, the milivolt section of a multimeter has huge resistance so it won't make a difference.  Anyway, if you look at commercial shunts, the main connections and the sensor wire connections are electrically equal (on the same busbar).

Spelljammer


[ Parent ]


Re: Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 06:58:49 PM MST

Huh?

The resistance of the meter has nothing to do with it.

The accuracy of your metering is no greater than the accuracy of your shunt resistance.  If you have 0.01 ohm of shunt and 0.1 ohm of connector resistance your readings will be off by a factor of 11.

You avoid that by keeping the connection resistances out of the section of the shunt that is sampled by the meter.  Which you do by using separate connections to the basic shunt bar for the meter and for the load.

[ Parent ]



Re: Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by Spelljammer on Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 01:52:35 AM MST

Sorry, I misunderstood you.  I agree that the nuts would have an impact on resistance.  Although a stainless steel nut has less than 0.0001 ohm.  It is screwed on the bolt (the main conductor) therefore acts in parallel to it, thus reducing the overall resistance (but only slightly due to the fact that the bolts  take up a small portion of the overall length of the conductor.  Besides, you can adjust the nuts one way or the other to calibrate the shunt very easily.  In other words, the nuts are actually part of the shunt resistor in this case.

Spelljammer


[ Parent ]


Re: Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Spelljammer on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 12:51:51 AM MST

David ,

One more thing, if your requirement is 0.1 ohm shunt that can handle 20 amps, my shunt calculator says that you can use 63 feet of 12 gauge copper insulated wire as a shunt.

Spelljammer




Re: Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Flux on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 01:19:52 AM MST

Do, you mean a meter shunt or a shunt load resistor.

A meter shunt of .1 ohms at 20A will drop 2v. That is not desperately efficient. You will not find any self respecting manufacturer offering such an inefficient thing.

.01 ohms dropping 200mV would seem more sensible. Standard meter shunts used to be 75mV but many are now 50 or 100mV to be more convenient with digital meters.

For rough metering copper cable or bar can be used. Stainless steel often is more convenient.

For precision measurements then you need shunts made of material with low temperature coefficient and also preferably low thermal emf with respect to copper. Quality shunts are expensive.

If you meant a shunt load resistor then .1 ohm is again an odd figure.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 01:54:45 PM MST

Geez.  That animated mill maxes out my CPU when (two of 'em are) displayed in my browser window.  Makes Firefox's response to mouse and keyboard input really crawl - like seconds of latency.  (On a 2.2G athlon yet.)

[ Parent ]


Re: Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by Spelljammer on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 02:06:18 PM MST

sorry about that.  It must be a firefox issue.  Doesn't do anything to mine.

Spelljammer


[ Parent ]


Re: Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by TomW on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 02:41:34 PM MST

Well, if its causing other folk[s] problems you might do the friendly thing and remove it.

I learned in grade school sometime early on to be aware of how what you do affects others if you wanted them to do the same.

Just think that over. Or not.

Cheers.

TomW

The Truth is the Truth, even if no one believes it; and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it


[ Parent ]



Re: Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by alancorey on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 02:43:11 PM MST

No problem in Mozilla 1.7.13

 Alan

[ Parent ]



Re: Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 07:03:44 PM MST

Yeah, but Firefox 2.0.0.1 (which claims to be the same code base as Mozilla 5.0) gets hammered.

The Athlon is a 64 bit running Gentoo.  Maybe IT configured it with a 64 bit kernel - I know there are issues with that.

[ Parent ]



Re: Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 07:05:06 PM MST

(By the way:  The tiny animations are just visible at the bottom of the CPU meter.  Thanks.)

[ Parent ]


Re: Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by jimovonz on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 11:23:52 PM MST

Not that I agree with including superfluous images in every post, but if you must, maybe you could try this 11k version: http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2210/windmill_animated_slow.gif

[ Parent ]


Re: Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by wooferhound on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 06:20:24 PM MST

That animated gif is 65k bytes, thats 2/3 the max picture limit. How long does it take to download that at 28k baud when you are doing the internet at a remote location off grid ?
W o o f -={(

[ Parent ]


Re: Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by commanda on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 01:20:09 AM MST

Personally, I use these.

http://jaycar.com.au

product codes
QP-5410
QP-5412
QP-5414
QP-5416

Yes, they do international mail order.

No, I'm not affiliated with them in any way whatsoever.
Just a regular customer.

Amanda



Re: Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by David HK on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 02:18:18 AM MST

Gentlemen,

Thanks for a prompt response.

Flux, yes I am floundering a little. I have heard of 'shunts' over the years, but never studied them in earnest.

Please visit the attached two web pages and in particular the second which contains a circuit diagram. The author places a 0.1 Ohm shunt on the negative side of the DC regulated output from a wind turbine. I am trying to replicate the entire arrangement.

http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/PicLog.asp

http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/images/piclog/PicLog-circuit-2.gif

Further comments would be of great interest.

Even at 58 years of age I still enjoy learning!

David HK



Re: Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Flux on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 02:38:34 AM MST

The .1 ohm resistor does seem to be his current shunt. Presumably the picaxe thing that I know nothing about needs a ridiculous voltage for decent resolution .  

You will need a high power resistor or you will need to make one. I am not sure what Amanda's link picked up but you could be thinking of the aluminium clad 25 or 50W resistors. 20 watts lost in metering current is not ideal. No commercial shunt will do that.

He does also use the thing he calls Dummy Load as a dump load ( often called a shunt resistor).

I think the commercial metal clad resistor mounted on a heat sink will give you better accuracy than a home made device with that sort of power dissipated.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by Opera House on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 07:37:59 PM MST

I presume his software is much better than his circuit.  You shouldn't use a 0.1 ohm in this circuit for anything more than 3A or it greatly effects what you put in or take out of the battery.  First he has to take the 13V and drop it down to something like 3V.  Then the voltage on each side of the shunt is compared in the pic. That looses a ton of bits on the current measurement. When the current gets a little high, just what voltage do you use to calculate the watts? 1-2 volts changes things a lot. A nice demonstrator, but the circuit is garbage if you want any accuracy.  Adding an op amp would have solved these problems.  Use a 0.01 ohm resistance instead and change the software. It won't change the current accuracy much.

[ Parent ]


Re: Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by dinges on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 05:56:04 AM MST

Incidentally, you could try making your own shunt.

Measuring low resistances is quite hard (e.g. your .01 ohms that you measured; if you measured it with an ordinary DMM, I have strong doubts about the results).

But measuring milli-volts is easy. The trick is to take a piece of wire, put a known current through it (say, 4A, from a car headlight bulb?), measure the current and measure the voltage drop over the shunt-to-be. The resistance can then easily be calculated with Ohm's law (R=U/I). The piece of wire could be shortened or lengthened, depending on what resistance you want.

Myself, I built a 'deluxe' version of the above thing: a milli-ohm meter that puts a known current through a wire (1A) and measures the voltage drop. Readout is directly in milli-ohms. With the help of a valve voltmeter, it can read down to 1 micro-ohm...

http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/dinges/milli_ohm_coil_under_test

http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/dinges/milli_ohm_meter_schematic_resized

But the trick with measuring current and amps is basically the same and quicker to set up for a single test.

Hope this helps,



Re: Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by Nando on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 06:42:08 AM MST

SHUNT RESISTORS

Do have certain characteristics and these are the thermal if the Shunt is going to be used for current measurements, as well as, low resistance value to minimize the dissipation and with an accurate resistance low value to guarantee current precision readings with an analog meter

The current Shunt resistors have an alloy construction that have the temperature coefficient close to Zero ppm.

Higher the current higher the dissipation and for such reason you may see them built with blades separated between themselves and mounted in a massive metallic block.

In the case of the Picaxe project, possibly the best solution is to use on of the Allegro Hall Effect current detectors that have by definition the elimination of the temperature behavior plus amplification for further easier processing.

I use the ACS family up to 150 amps capability.

Visit www.allegromicro.com and look for current sensors

I also use devices from :

Raztec (NZ) Ltd.; PO Box 30075; Christchurch; NEW ZEALAND

tel +64 (0)3 982 3490 mobile +64 (0)21 374 590 fax +64 (0) 3 982 3496

eric.ball@raztec.co.nz

Visit www.raztec.co.nz

Raztec has some models that can be use for wide current range and by wrapping turns on the Hall effect a more sensitive arrangement is formed.

SHUNT resistors were invented in long past times when the electronics was in its infancy and we did not have the means to read the current in a sensible way, but with the available electronic current sensors the job is easier and with much less power dissipation.

The OTHER Shunt is just a misnomer used to imply a low value load across the supply for fast heavy current discharge and this shunt is most of the time a resistive Nichrome alloy with some stable temperature resistance value with much higher resistance ranges in the high ohms.

Nando




Re: Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by jimovonz on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 01:24:41 PM MST

Its easy enough to make a shunt (the bent nail in the image below!):



However... The response of a rusty nail is probably not quite so linear - especially with heat variation (ambient, load etc). This setup was suprisingly linear over the 0-20A range of my meter and I scaled results from there.

You can use anything conductive as a shunt. One of your main considerations is the reliability/stability of the connections.

Using a shunt with the picaxe is a bit of a trade off with out going to some lengths to amplify the signal. The picaxe requires approx 0-5V swing on the analog input to achieve a full 10 bit resolution (1024 steps). A 5V drop across a shunt represents a significant loss in a 12V system! You can get around this using an opamp to boost the voltage from the shunt.

Your 0.1Ohm shunt will give you a 2V drop at your 20A rated load. This will give you a resolution of approx 0.05A That is the picaxe will be able to measure current in 0.05A increments. However if this is a 12V system at your rated 20A the shunt will be costing you close to 17% of your output! You can basically use any value shunt and adjust the picaxe code to compensate (i.e a calibration process) If your shunt is a higher resistance then you will get a higher resloution at the expense of a greater resistive loss and viceversa.

I find it more convienient to use a halleffect sensor to measure current with the picaxe: http://www.fieldlines.com/comments/2006/2/27/0479/09688/20#20



Re: Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by wooferhound on Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 05:15:55 PM MST

Can't a Fuse be used as a Shunt ?
W o o f -={(



Re: Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by Opera House on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 10:17:14 AM MST

Many savvy designers use fuses for emitter resistors incorporating feedback and protection in the same component.  I tested a 20A plug in automotive mini fuse and it was about 3.8 mOHM at 5A and it increased to 4.6 mOHM at 15A.  I'm rather fond of a 12 inch hacksaw blade which has convenient mounting holes.  A lug on each side of the blade and then bolted will give a decent 4 wire connection and the large surface area of the blade keeps it relatively cool.  Shown is the hacksaw blade being tested with my HYPATIA 309 that provides currents from 0.5A to 100A and calculates the resistance.   At 20A the resistance was 9.745 mOHMS, that would give you about 0.2V at 20A for sensing.





[ Parent ]



Make your own shunt resistor or buy one? | 24 comments (24 topical)
Display: Sort:
Menu
· create account
· How to use the board
· FAQs
· search the board
· Google search the board

Login
Make a new account
Username:
Password:

Total Views
  177 Scoop users have viewed this posting.

Related Links
· Also by David HK

Powered by Scoop
You must be a registered user to post here. It's easy and free, and the link is on the upper right side of your page.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Postings are owned by the poster, but may be deleted or moved at the ADMIN's sole discretion. The Rest © 2009 Forcefield.
You can Email the board ADMIN here. PLEASE include the username you signed up with!