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Coil Question


By WXYZCIENCE, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Wed Mar 7th, 2007 at 08:59:14 AM MST
Why?

I have been testing different coils on the (AHSA) Axial High Speed Alternator.
The first coil is pictured here, I will call No.1 (35 turns of 14 guage wire.)





This second coil I will call No.2 it is made from (4 strands of 21 guage wire) and twisted.





My test of these two coils had close enough parameters to reveal that the second one is a far better design. At 6000 rpm coil No.1 produced 92watts. At 6000 rpm coil No.2 produced 90 watts.
Coil No.1 warms up and has a 1.1 volt drop at 10 amps. Coil No.2 stays cool with only a .21 volt drop at 10amps.
What makes the second coil so much better?
Has anyone else ever tried this type of twisted coil with similar results?
Joseph.
Coil Question | 10 comments (10 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Coil Question (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Flux on Wed Mar 7th, 2007 at 02:48:37 AM MST
(User Info)

There are probably two issues here.

At that speed you have a high frequency. There will be significant eddy loss in the thick wire. Even at the low frequency used for wind power this is likely to be close to an issue with wires thicker than 10 AWG.

At high frequencies there is a second issue of skin effect, the current crowds to the outer surface and little is carried in the centre. When you reach low radio frequencies you are as well off with a copper tube as a solid bar.

Your multi stand wire is effectively what is known as Litz wire that has to be used for radio frequency applications.

The 14Awg will almost certainly show signs of heating with no load due to eddies. The lower impedance of the stranded wire will more likely be due to skin effect.

Flux



Re: Coil Question (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by WXYZCIENCE on Wed Mar 7th, 2007 at 09:52:31 AM MST
(User Info)

There will be significant eddy loss in the thick wire.

Flux, is the center of the thick wire then effectively useless thus increasing the impedance of the coil and more heat?
Does Litz wire have a twist in the strands? Maybe the capacitive reactance also has an effect in the increased efficiency of the coil No.2.
Joseph.

[ Parent ]


Re: Coil Question (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Flux on Wed Mar 7th, 2007 at 11:13:56 AM MST
(User Info)

Your frequency is still not very high ( 300Hz if you have 6 poles at 6000rpm)

I am fairly sure that eddy current loss is the big factor. Really it doesn't matter as the cure for both problems is to use a large number of insulated strands in place of a thick bar.

Using multiple strands in hand without twisting will reduce the eddy loss to a low level and also reduce skin effect. There is a significant danger of circulating currents between the strands and to reduce this you need to make sure that the average position is the same for each strand as far as flux linkage is concerned. Simple twisting is probably adequate. On a larger scale conductors are transposed so that they consecutively occupy the same position throughout the length. For fine wires braiding will do this and the best quality Litz wire would likely be braided. For commercial windings in inverter transformers, twisted litz is usual. For RF use where the circulating current may not be an issue but many strands are needed Litz often consists of a bundle of fine insulated wires covered by a layer of cotton or silk.

I can't imagine that you are at a frequency where capacitance is likely to be any issue.

At your frequency careful in hand winding without twist may be good enough and will take up less space but a slow twist as you wind will most likely be beneficial. Your 4 strands is likely to be adequate, I don't think you will find much gain by using smaller wire and more strands.
Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Coil Question (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by sdscott on Wed Mar 7th, 2007 at 06:48:58 AM MST
(User Info)

I believe 4 strands of 21awg is equivalent to 15awg ???  The power out shouldn't be the same.  Perhaps the twists consumed sufficient wire to make total length longer in the second coil...?



Re: Coil Question (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by WXYZCIENCE on Wed Mar 7th, 2007 at 10:14:28 AM MST
(User Info)

sdscott, yes you are correct the circular mils of the #14 is 4110 and #21 is 810 (810 x 4 = 3296). The resistance of #14 is 2.58 ohms per 1000 feet and #21 is 13.1 ohms per 1000 feet (13.1 / 4 = 3.275) #15 is 3.25 ohms per 1000 feet.

I am going to try again with exact lengths of wire and more controlled winding count. Thanks for you comments.
Joseph.

[ Parent ]


Re: Coil Question (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by DanG on Wed Mar 7th, 2007 at 08:30:28 AM MST
(User Info)

..less airspace in the litz wire, more swept surface area, one extra winding, length take-up on twist, greater parallel coils in twist...



Re: Coil Question (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by SamoaPower on Wed Mar 7th, 2007 at 11:21:05 AM MST
(User Info)

An interesting observation Joe. I wouldn't expect skin effect to be much of an issue at your 300 Hz (6000 rpm) since it doesn't begin to become significant until a few kilohertz or so.

There is another effect in inductors and transformers that I haven't seen mentioned here before called proximity effect and it usually dominates skin effect at low frequencies. It's caused by interaction of the magnetic fields of nearby conductors (other turns in a coil) and causes disruption (bunching/looping) of the current path within the wire which results in increased AC resistance. (perhaps, part of Flux's constant?)

I don't believe you've mentioned what the DC resistance of these coils are. Have you measured it? Don't use an ohmmeter - use a known DC current and voltage drop method. Coil 2 should have higher resistance since as sdscott pointed out, four #21 is equivilent to #15 and the extra turn will also bring it up.

I assume the voltage drop you mention is between unloaded and loaded. I'm not sure how significant this is, but it does seem to indicate a higher impedance of coil 1.

It's easy to check for eddy current losses in coil 1. Just run it open circuit for a while and check for a temperature rise. I don't expect you'll see it.

Have you looked at waveforms with a scope? If they depart much from sine and have different crest factors for the two coils, your instrumentation could be lying to you. I suspect this may be a more likely explanation.

By the way, yes, Litz wire is usually twisted or braided but what you have isn't true Litz. It's typically made up of many more smaller strands than you are using.

Let us know what you find.



Re: Coil Question (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 06:55:21 AM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

I don't understand why y'all are saying that the frequency is 300hz ?
6000rpm X 6 poles = 36000hz in a single coil
even if a cycle is produced by a North South pair of magnets the frequency would be 18000hz
Ain't that right ?
W o o f -={(



Re: Coil Question (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Flux on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 07:44:18 AM MST
(User Info)

That's what happens when they change the names of units.

In the old days Hz was cycles per second and this would not be confused with cycles per minute.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Coil Design (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by WXYZCIENCE on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 12:34:47 PM MST
(User Info)

This coil research has me interested in coil efficiency. The wave forms below were the same across both coils. The first 120 hz (2400 rpm 6 pole)





Next 400 hz (6000 rpm 6 pole)





Dc Resistance Test: The two coils were placed into a series circuit with an applied emf of 12v dc. The current was limited to 2.70 amps by a automotive 12v tail light bulb. Coil #1 .105v dc, Coil #2 .117v dc. The resistance for Coil #1 .038 ohms, Coil #2 .043 ohms.

Inductance Test: The next test that was done on the coils was an inductance test. Coil #1 .051 mh (400hz = .128 ohms) Coil #2 .041 mh (400hz = .102 ohms)

I will have to do more tests to confirm the readings. I will mount both coils with temperature sensors and exact loads. This next test will give me side by side readings for more accuracy.
Joseph.



Coil Question | 10 comments (10 topical, 0 editorial)
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