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Trouble with rossw controller


By billymc, Section Controls
Posted on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 06:07:07 PM MST
Help ross, flux, anybody!

I built the shunt controller submitted by rossw: http://www.albury.net.au/~rossw/dumploadctlr4.jpg

Has anyone tried the 48 volt version?

The 12 volt version seemed to function just fine when tested with just a small resistor load.  Had about 7 second `on' cycle.  

Well, I substituted the resistors needed to build the 48 volt version and the unit just came on and stayed.  The battery bank was at about 52 volts. Got to checking a couple of things and found that my zener (1N4739, 9.1 volt, 1 watt) was open.  A spare one shows about 4 ohms across it from both directions. Any ideas what might have taken out the zener? (besides builder error) Also would the zener going open put 48 volts on the op-amp through R1?  I guess the 2 - 10K resistors would pull the volts down a little.  Just wonderin if I cooked the amp (LM358)?

PS: I did add an led with 2.4K resistor across the load diode just as an indicator that the unit was on.

Thanks
billymc

Trouble with rossw controller | 13 comments (13 topical)

Re: Trouble with rossw controller (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by boB on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 12:38:19 PM MST

At about 49 Volts, that R1 1 Watt resistor would be dissipating around
16 Watts and the Zener around 3.5 Watts.  The zener certainly could
go open and would overvoltage the op-amp.  I'd try replacing the op-amp
and raising R1's value.  You ~DID~ use an IC socket, right ??

Then again, the Op-amp might be OK still ??  

boB




Re: Trouble with rossw controller (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by billymc on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 12:56:20 PM MST

R1 is replaced with a 2.2K resistor for the 48 volt version. That should get the wattage down. I=E/R, P=IE.  50/2200=.0227, .0227*50=1.135  still gettin over a watt though.

[ Parent ]


Re: Trouble with rossw controller (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Flux on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 01:08:29 PM MST

Yes the 2.2k would suit 36v.  At 48v full charge you are over the rating of the resistor and the zener.

More common for zeners to fail to short, are you sure you didn't do something silly, I would expect it to work for a while with things stinking hot.

 I hold out little hope for the op amps they are not likely to stand an open zener.

I think you can go up to 4.7k for that resistor, I haven't looked at the drain on that zener in detail , but 20mA should supply everything with some head room.

48v is a pain for these sort of things as you are beyond the range of the common regulators. Better solutions are costly, the zener should do if you get the thing within rating and don't make any mistakes.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Trouble with rossw controller (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by billymc on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 02:00:37 PM MST

Thanks Flux, I'll try the 4.7K and see what happens. I'm putting things back on the experimenters board to play with. Oh, and yes bob, thankfully I used a socket for the op-amp!

[ Parent ]


Re: Trouble with rossw controller (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by rossw on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 02:27:40 PM MST

You've made a flaw with your calculation.

The voltage drop across the resistor is not 50 volts, but (50-9.1) = 40.9 (you need to deduct the zener voltage)

That gives us: 40.9 volts, 0.018591 amps, 2200 ohms, 0.760368 watts

Agreed, the 2K2 is a little light on at 1/2 watt.

The Zener, meanwhile:  9.1 volts, 0.018591 amps, 0.169178 watts

So it shouldn't be letting the magic smoke out!

Remember, Zener diodes require a MINIMUM current to maintain regulation. Increasing the series resistance of R1 too far will result in loss of regulation.

I would be more inclined to use two, 1.5K resistors in series, they would be dissipating only 0.55W between them, so half watt each should cope fine.

Using a 4K7 gives 40.9 volts, 0.008702 amps, 4700.000000 ohms, 0.355917 watts.
Only 8 milliamps zener current, depending on the device used, may or may not be enough.

Check the specs of the device you use, or post the part number here and I'll check for you.

RossW

[ Parent ]



Re: Trouble with rossw controller (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by rossw on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 03:00:00 PM MST

Actually, on thinking about it, and trying to rememer why I specified 2k2, I realize that what I've written above is only PART of the answer.

The maximum value of the resistor is calculated from the MINIMUM voltage the controller needs to work at, and the MAXIMUM current the controller needs to work.

So with the op-amp and its bias resistors, there should be something in the order of 5mA "circuit" current, plus a minimum zener current (I think I worked on 10mA).

If the controller has to work down to a minimum of 45 volts (say), then the resistor must be able to supply the full current (10 + 5 = 15mA) without dropping out of regulation (45 - 9.1 = 35.9V), giving 2393 ohms MAXIMUM

More resistance and you won't have enough voltage to maintain regulation at the lower voltages.

So, the nearest standard value NOT GREATER THAN 2393 ohms is 2K2

THEN you can calculate the dissipation of the resistors at MAXIMUM voltage.

Say you want to handle a maximum float voltage of 60 volts, resistor will be dropping:
(60 - 9.1) = 50.9V. Current is 0.023136 amps, 1.177641 watts

So we have little choice but to use larger resistors (wattage wise, not resistance wise), and/or to make a composite resistor using 2 x 1W or 3 x 1/2W.

Three 6K8 in parallel should do nicely....

RossW

[ Parent ]



Re: Trouble with rossw controller (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by billymc on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 03:47:44 PM MST

OK guys, I tried the 4.7 and a 3.8 k ohm resistor (after replacing the zener and the op-amp). The unit would come on as soon as the power was connected, go off after about 7 seconds and then would not come back on. The zener is: 1N4739

I don't think the battery would ever see 60 volts.  They are AGM and 56 volts is the highest I've seen.  56 volts is also the high voltage cut out for the inverter.

I'll go back with the 3 6k8 after checking things out again. Maybe on the breadboard.

[ Parent ]



Re: Trouble with rossw controller (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by rossw on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 06:06:22 PM MST

Well, thats a start I suppose. No magic smoke is always a bonus :)

If you have a reasonable multimeter, can you measure (carefully, don't short pins and stuff...) the voltage from ground to:
  Pin 2 (should be 4.55 volts or near enough)
  Pin 3 (should be somewhere "near" that)

You can try turning the pot from one end to the other and measure volts on pin 3.

With 50 volts input and 820K/68K and a 20K pot, you should have:

50V / (820K + 20K + 68K) = .000055 Amps.
With the pot at the "minimum" point, voltage at pin 3 should be
68000*.000055 = 3.74V

With the pot the other way:
88000*.000055 = 4.84V

If you measure substantially different to that, please post your findings (and check your wiring again!)

RossW

[ Parent ]



Re: Trouble with rossw controller (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Flux on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 01:20:42 AM MST

I am sure your disaster was some fault or short on the board. The 2.2 k resistor was overloaded but I calculated the zener power wrongly, it was fine.

Just beefing up the resistor wattage should be fine. You will never ask it to regulate below 50v so you are not so worried about zener current at that point, as long as it is taking some current through the zener at 45v it should be ok.

I personally would be tempted to use a 15v zener to clamp the op amp supply to 15v and have it start zenering at about 45v, this would give you better gate drive for the fet. I would replace the lower 10k resistor of the reference divider with a 5.6v 200mW zener to give you a sharper reference without having to zener the supply rail hard to get a sharp reference.

Just beef up the resistor with the there 7.5k in parallel, find your other fault and all will be well.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Trouble with rossw controller (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by rossw on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 04:30:38 AM MST

Just for the historical and reference details that nobody else (well, apart from Dinges) probably knows....

This design sprung as the output of a discussion from the shortcommings of another dumpload controller. It used a 7812 regulator (which immediately limited the application to 12/24V loads), had way too many bits, used some chips that I hate, and had little (if any) hysteresis.

This design was a case of "put your money where your mouth is" - and was a 5-minute throw-together, followed up by a 10 minute prototype on pegboard to get some values for someone who was actually making one.

Yes, a 15V zener would be better.... if we were only making 48V units. But one of the design criteria was a controller that would work quite happily on 12, 24, 36 or 48V systems.

It has shorcommings, I admit. But it was meant to be a design that was sufficiently "non-critical" in components and layout that the average mug could scrounge bits from his/her junkbox and make it work. The Opamp is nothing special, and just about any will work. Two single opamps, or a dual. My prototype was a quad that I only used half of.

Zener regulator isn't very efficient, but at least it still works at 48V (or 60V) whereas a 7812 would blow up. I could have used a transistor as "power zener" but that was more complexity than was probably warranted in the application.

In an ideal world, we probably wouldn't be using "bang-bang" controllers anyway, but this was cheap, simple enough to understand, easy to construct. I never really expected people to build it, but dozens have so far, with few reporting problems. I guess that says something :)

[ Parent ]



Re: Trouble with rossw controller (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by billymc on Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 07:39:58 PM MST

I finally got around to putting it the breadboard.  The unit was eratic. It would come on as soon as I connected the voltage and then sometimes go out after a few seconds. Once in a while it would come back on while I was adjusting the pot and then not go off.  
I checked the voltages as suggested: pin 2 = 4.55 volts, pin 3 varied from 3.55 to 4.48.  The applied voltage was 50.5 and the zener was showing 9.02 volts. The readings were taken with a probably questionable UEI meter.

[ Parent ]


Re: Trouble with rossw controller (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by rossw on Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 07:51:28 PM MST

Sounds like the "top" resistor is too high.

If you can only get 3.55 to 4.48 volts, you are not getting high enough to trigger the unit into turning on. What values do you have for R2, the pot and R4?

If it's turning on at all, it's probably from noise.

I'm suspecting either the 68K is too small, or the 820K too large....

Errr..... or the hysteresis resistor is too small! I tested it at 12V where the reference divider was much smaller. It is possible there is now too much hysteresis, and when its "off" it's pulling the input down too far.

Perhaps replace that 470K (the "feedback" resistor between pins 1 and 3) with a 4M7

[ Parent ]



Re: Trouble with rossw controller (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by billymc on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:37:46 PM MST

Hey, good news!  Changed the 470K to 4m7 as suggested and viola, it works! Thats the only change. Now if I can get it over onto veroboard or something more permanent.

[ Parent ]


Trouble with rossw controller | 13 comments (13 topical)
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