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What about Clothes Dryers?


By scottsAI, Section Heat
Posted on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 01:46:10 AM MST
Convert Electric Clothes dryer to solar heat and 12Vdc motor?

ENERGY STAR does not label clothes dryers because most dryers use similar amounts of energy.

Wife won't live without.

Looking at the dryer guts doesn't look difficult.
Replace the 1/3 hp motor with a super efficient brush less motor, voltage of your choice.
Electrical heater with Air-water heat exchanger.
Anybody done something like this?

Have fun,
Scott.

What about Clothes Dryers? | 67 comments (67 topical)

Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by kurt on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 08:22:00 PM MST

i heard of one guy piping hot air from his wood stove to his dryer (just be careful not to overheat the cloths) but if you want a solar cloths dryer get a cloths line.

http://www.reresource.org/

IRC


Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by scottsAI on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 09:13:37 PM MST

Cloths line wouldn't be any fun!
Not too good in the rain or winter here in Michigan.

Heat from a wood stove is hot.
Scott.

[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by vawtman on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 04:27:15 PM MST

Scott

 Why not put the clothsline in the house during the winter most homes need the moisture anyway?Use a vacant room if you have one.

[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by Nando on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 08:39:08 AM MST

Stove hot air to dry clothes is easy and safe to do.

In winter, though living in the tropics, we had problems drying clothes, so my uncle and my father build a drier using the heat from the stove, indirectly.

The hot heat was transfered to the drier via a heat exchanger, this to avoid wood odors going into the cloth and the same motor turning the drum was turning a blower that moved the heated air to exhaust it to the outside.

It worked for many years.

Nando

[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#48)
by alancorey on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 10:20:12 AM MST

Clothesline on a porch, that's the ticket, been doing it 8 or 9 years.  Don't have to worry about rain.  Wash your work clothes Friday night and if you don't have something dry by Sunday night bring it indoors for overnight.  Even if they're frozen clothes will dry in 3 or 4 days.  Plan ahead.  Driers are for emergencies.

  Alan

[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by wdyasq on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 09:42:29 PM MST

Check out "Equator Clothes Processor" - the capacity is smaller than normal. I like mine. I have a vent-less model I have been using a year. Uses very little water and detergent.

I bought mine with 'shipping damage' from U-Bid for less than $500 delivered.

Ron
Adventure is just bad planning." -- Roald Amundsen



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by GaryGary on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 10:38:02 PM MST

Hi,
If you live in a dry climae and the dryer is electric (not gas), you can vent it to the  inside through a filter that takes out the lint.

During the heating season, this saves a lot of energy -- about 600 KWH per year in my case -- details here:
http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Half/ProjectsConservation.htm#Dryer

Venting inside not only recovers the dryer heat for house heating, but prevents the dryer from pulling cold air in from the outside to make up for the air its venting outside.

Gary
Gary gary@BuildItSolar.com www.BuildItSolar.com



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by PeterAVT on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 10:07:17 PM MST

I've been doing this for decades up north here in NY USA on the southern shore of Lake  Ontario. Using the dryer exhaust is one of those things that everybody does, but one must be careful to remove the extra humidity. Else all the wood will warp, etc. It does work, tho especially if there is an automatic way to add it to your homes energy systems.
AKA "inode_buddha" Power to the people!
[ Parent ]


Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by rossw on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 12:08:06 AM MST

Or.... turn it around the other way, if you can, and USE the drier for more than one task.

We had a battle with the council, but finally got past them. Our clothes dryer burns gas (propane) rather than using electric elements. Electricity is really only used to run the tumbler motor.

The exhaust gas is vented into one of our glasshouses. The plants love the extra heat, help convert the combustion products (esp CO2), and like the extra moisture. The glasshouse is 5 metres wide, 15 metres long and 4 metres high, so dry clothes, happy plants and less greenhouse gas to deal with.

You can also get "heat exchangers" designed specifically for buildings that have to expell "dirty" air and bring in clean. Up to about 80% of the heat can be transferred so the expelled air need not cost you a fortune in wasted heat loss. Perhaps the same exchanger could be used with the exhaust from the dryer to reduce the effect of drawing in cold air to replace that expelled?



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by nothing to lose on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 12:29:49 AM MST

I do the wood burner dryer thing and posted some about it long ago on here maybe year or two ago? I think some others might do it too.

Back to solar though, different thing!

As long as you have the heat source it will work fine. That's all it's doing is blowing around hot air as it spins so it doesn't matter how the air became hot to begin with, as long as clean air, no smoke etc.. of course.
Dry hot air in, wet hot air out. You might even be able to make a heat exchanger to reclaim the heat in the exhausted air so fresh air is preheated before going into the solar heater also.

The thing I wonder about though, dryers move alot of air, can you heat that much air that fast?
Maybe a couple double walled solar heat stacks, air up through a center pipe, back down between center and outer pipe. Preheats going up center and heats comming down, painted black, maybe behind glass in an insulated box? IF your reclaiming the heat exhausted then the longer it runs and circulates air the hotter it may get once running also.

I think something like that would work here in the mid south, MO. USA, not sure about up north though.

Basically as long as the motor is spinning the drum and blowing air the clothes will dry, just takes longer if the air is not hot and faster if air is hot. Heck clothes dry on the line in the shade in a breeze right :)
Or hanging on the bathroom shower rod they dry also.
 So basically no way it won't work, just a question of how well will it work?
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by GaryGary on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 09:00:29 PM MST

Hi,
An interesting idea.

Dryers use about 170cfm of air.
If the outside air is (say) 50F, and it needs to go through the dryer at 120F, then the heat demand is:

(170 ft^3/min)(0.065 lb/ft^3)(120F - 50F)(0.24 BTU/lb-F) = 186 BTU/min or 11K BTU/hr

A solar collector in full sun at 50% efficiency would collect about
(300 BTU/hr-ft^2)(0.5 efic) = 150 BTU/hr per sqft of collector.

So, it would take about (11000/150) = 73 sqft of collector to supply the dryer.

Not out of reason -- it could be a simple air collector -- this could be built for around $200.  It could be used for house heating when not being used for drying.
If the collector was made smaller, it would not heat the air as much, but the cloths would still dry -- it would just take longer.

This is a nice scheme in that it eliminates the electricity (or gas) needed to heat the air for drying (about 930 KWH per year) as well as the energy the fresh air that the dryer pulls into the house to replace the air its venting out(about another 300 KWH per year for the winter dryer loads).    This adds up to over 1200 KWH per year, or about $120 in saved electricity.  The collector payback (including drying and space heating) would be less than one year!

I've also heard of people using solar closets, in which the wet cloths are hung in a closet that has hot air from a simple solar air collector blown through it.  In the winter the hot air exiting the closet could warm the house, in the summer it could be vented outside.

Gary

Gary gary@BuildItSolar.com www.BuildItSolar.com
[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#30)
by scottsAI on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 04:35:41 PM MST

Hello GaryGary,

Yes, Yes you have the idea. Numbers look right.
Add a cross flow heat exchanger to further reduce the heat needed by 25% - 50% or more.
Reducing the size of the solar collector needed in half.

Solar collector can be like ones from your web on the side of the building.
Or, nice simple design:
Clear Polycarbonate panel like used for green house.
Spaced 5/8 inch above a black steel roof panel, gives R2.2 insulation on top.
Assembled on steel 2x4.
Insulation on the sides and bottom (if needed.) complete the air channel.
Air channel is between the 2x4, insulation and under steel panel.
32 sqft can be built for much less than $200! (not factorial, excitement!-)

The motors used in the dryer are built to last 20 years and cheap. Not efficiency.
Motors look to be 1/3 HP, for 170CFM blower and tumbling I think motor could be smaller with higher efficiency. Brush less motor anybody? Will need controller, now have an opportunity for humidity control etc.

Thanks for pointing out the replacement air cost, has changed the direction of the design requirements.
Have fun,
Scott.


[ Parent ]



Duh, rope and couple poles. (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by TomW on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 05:52:29 AM MST

Our dryer seldom runs. We dry stuff on the totally renewable, free drier that everyone has access to on some level.

Its called a clothesline. Takes some setup time but it is 100% free after.

Not for the lazy or the princess type.

We at least get most of the water out that way then fluff them in the drier a short time.

Not for citified sissies but us hicks been doing it for milennia.

Not as much gadget coolness factor as a powered noisemaker doing it but it will work when all the services disappear.

[/rant]

Uh, convert it to solar and wind put up a clothesline.

How could you guys miss that elephant in the room?

Cheers.

TomW

Ignarus can exsisto rememdium. Sardus est forever




Re: Duh, rope and couple poles. (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by Norm on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 06:41:14 AM MST

   Right on Tom, Memories of handing Mom
the clothespins....the mad dash to help bring in
the clothes when it started to rain...This poor
generation that will never know memories like this,
I actually feel sorry for them.
             ( :>) Norm.
( :>) Norm
[ Parent ]


Re: Duh, rope and couple poles. (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by dinges on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 06:51:18 AM MST

A whilst ago on IRC I was amazed to learn that some cities/communities in the USA have outlawed clothes lines.

At first I thought it was a joke and someone was pulling my leg. Till others chimed in and confirmed that in many (suburban) places clotheslines are illegal.

Wow.

Guess some people will be in a for a major shock and lifestyle change in the coming decade(s). -THEN- you can begin feeling sorry for them...

[ Parent ]



Re: Duh, rope and couple poles. (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by jimjjnn on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 07:42:16 AM MST

Dinges, They call it POLITICAL CORRECTNESS here. Clotheslines are objectionable objects here. :-((
Denver,CO
[ Parent ]


Re: Duh, rope and couple poles. (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by nothing to lose on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 02:08:52 PM MST

Hey, you problably have plenty of cell towers around, just hang clothes from those pretty things and forget the ugly clothes lines in the back yards :o

I geuss some people are just offended by whity tighties?
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.
[ Parent ]



Re: Duh, rope and couple poles. (3.00 / 0) (#32)
by scottsAI on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 05:12:17 PM MST

Hello dinges,

I thought the same thing.
5 years ago as part of a new energy policy made it so clothes lines could not be forbidden. Sort of like the dish law.
I spent hours trying to find it... no such luck.
Why did I think there was? Rhetorical question, you won't know.
Have fun,
Scott.


[ Parent ]



Re: Duh, rope and couple poles. (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by PeterAVT on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 10:23:42 PM MST

You might be surprised, Norm. I've plenty of memories about frozen underwear or stuff the dog chewed up and rolled on the mud. Sometimes rather large deer come through the area and just eat things. Worse came to worst, I've got just enough room inside to hang it up during the cold months, using a chopped-up gallon jug to hold the clothes-pins on the line.
AKA "inode_buddha" Power to the people!
[ Parent ]


Re: Duh, rope and couple poles. (3.00 / 0) (#56)
by BT Humble on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 03:48:47 AM MST


   Right on Tom, Memories of handing Mom
the clothespins....the mad dash to help bring in
the clothes when it started to rain...This poor
generation that will never know memories like this,
I actually feel sorry for them.

I've only ever owned a mechanical clothes dryer for a few years (my first wife insisted) and I hated it.

If it's sunny, my clothes go on the outside line.

If it's not, they go on a clothes horse inside.  They dry in a couple of days.

BTH

[ Parent ]



Re: Duh, rope and couple poles. (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Bruce S on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 07:10:00 AM MST

So TomW;
  What does a dis-located hick do? too many pigeons and kids too let my shirts dry on the line.
Seems they have this invisable sign on them that says dump here!! or throw dirt here!

We can eat the pigeons , but kids are not in season......yet:-)

And how many remember finding out how much those spring loaded pins hurt? when you got curious?

I too love the feel of sheets dried on the line they just seems to bring the sunhine in with them...
Hummm I wonder how well a solar dehydrater would do, get a low voltage motor and timer, let it turn when every so many seconds let the batt take in a small charge then turn the drum , stop , heat, turn ,,,,, hum might just work:-)

Still won't replace that gentle wind dried clothes tho:--)

Bruce S


[ Parent ]



Re: Duh, rope and couple poles. (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by s4w2099 on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 07:42:27 AM MST

Well I am very cheap so I still use clothsline. :-D

[ Parent ]


Screened in Gazebo (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by Norm on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 01:00:56 PM MST

  A 12ft screened in Gazebo with a short squatty
VAWT on top to move the air also connected to a
wormgear drive to turn the rotissary to cook the
pidgeons.
               ( :>) Norm.
( :>) Norm
[ Parent ]


Screened in Gazebo (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by Norm on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 01:03:13 PM MST

 Bruce,
 A 12ft screened in Gazebo with a short squatty
VAWT on top to move the air, also connected to a
wormgear drive to turn the rotissary to cook the
pidgeons.
               ( :>) Norm.
( :>) Norm
[ Parent ]


Re: Screened in Gazebo (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by Tritium on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 02:19:57 PM MST

Why not take that VAWT and hook it to a cloths rack in the gazzebo and let the cloths go round and round?

Thurmond

[ Parent ]



Re: Screened in Gazebo (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by vawtman on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 05:08:32 PM MST

A vawt clothsline how could that be boring.Just hook up a couple undies let it spin a little and so on could sit in chair while doing it.

 You could generate power from it.LOL

[ Parent ]



Re: Screened in Gazebo (3.00 / 0) (#27)
by Bruce S on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 08:35:39 AM MST

Norm;
  I like where this is going :->
VAWT turning the clothes line making "those" unmentionables turn while cooking those pigeons, a few black birds (known as currie chicken) and some doves ( squab for those in fancy resturants) . Yummy

maybe a couple bike gears small chain turning the rotesserie, along with a few steppers just in case the wind stops.

beginning to look like a family reunion:--)

Bruce S

[ Parent ]



Re: Duh, rope and couple poles. (3.00 / 0) (#31)
by scottsAI on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 04:40:30 PM MST

Hello TomW,

Yes, my wife is the princess type.

I plan on keeping her that way.
Just so long as she keeps treating me like a KING.
Have fun,
Scott.


[ Parent ]



Re: Duh, rope and couple poles. (3.00 / 0) (#33)
by richhagen on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 05:42:49 PM MST

Tom, I would love to use a clothes line, but in the city where I live I would lose my clothes. :-)  

Maybe I can build one on the roof.  The neighbors would love that one.  I have a coin operated washer and dryer that I use along with my tenants in my building, I hate using gas to do something that doesn't require it, but it is slightly profitable and the tenants would just use machines somewhere else anyway.  If I were to make an impact I would have to figure out a way to power it without the grid or gas as well.  I would also have to keep it push button simple or the tenants wouldn't use it.  I have, however, been spending much more than I make from the machines on solar panels (hopefully they won't get stolen).  I've looked into the batteries and inverters required to power an electric laundry using conventional electric machines and it is too much to be practical at the moment, I would need a bigger roof and budget, or at least a sunnier location, and it with the life expectancy of the equipment, it would be a big economic loser at present.  Rich
'A Joule saved is a Joule made'
[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by BrianK on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 09:46:29 AM MST

depending on where u live. Why not set up a long span of black pipe place it outside
, then connect it to the dryer intake inside. put the cloths in the dryer turn on to air dry only.

 rough idea but a place to start

.



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by wooferhound on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 12:21:15 PM MST

Here is a disacussion about heating the dryer intake with the hot exhaust
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/1/15/22455/5870

As for venting into the house, I've heard that womens Hose/stockings make a good filter to get the lent out.
W o o f -={(



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by nothing to lose on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 02:36:58 PM MST

That's what I use on mine also, the foot lower leg of panty hose. Catches the lint well and can make a long filter if you want, longer the less often needs cleaned. Keeps lint out of house. Durring winter static shock in the house used to be a bit of a problem, the extra moisture from the dryer air stopped the shocks. And of course if the wood burner was fired up and clothes being dried then we wanted the heat also.

A lower heat seems to make less lint when drying also, seems too but I never really checked that. But I do know using a normall electic dryer in winter when it was to warm for the wood burner we got far more lint in the dryers filter than when we used the converted gas/wood burner dryer whose built in filter was never half as full.
Less heat means motor runs longer but less lint probably means clothes last longer also?
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.
[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by nothing to lose on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 02:50:56 PM MST

Of course we use the clothes line here when we can, but rainy days and winter it doesn't work so well, so I have a couple backup plans :)
When all else fails and we need certain clothes right then we have an electric dryer, seldom used though. I never got a big propane tank, run the cook stove off a little one and that's it for propane.

Nice thing about buidling/modding your dryers is you can get good ones as scrap for $3-$5 often :)
 I have a nice one I may convert to DC motor if any of the motors I have work for it, then it's just a matter of a timer and a heat source, set it to 30 minutes or 1 hour and forget it.
I am trying to think of a way to use one of those moisture meters like for plant dirt or testing wood for moisture. Might be something better I haven't found yet also.
 Maybe put it to test the moisture in the exhaust somehow, trigger a relay to run/stop the motor? If I figure something out for that then put in wet clothes and start it up, let it run till clothes are dry and auto shutoff :)

I wonder for solar heat, seems everyone wants that heat out of the attic in summer right. What about a ductwork under the roof to suck up the hot attic air, perhaps heat for drying clothes and also help cool the house a bit? You might still need more heat, but that could be a good start for preheat on a hot summer day. Suck the hot air off the attic ceiling and draw in fresh cooler outside air to the attic floor. Maybe run the duct out the wall then through a solar heater outside on the roof or running down the wall on the sun side of the house.

I would try that but I don't have an attic myself.
Of course that's if you have a nice clean attic and good air for the clothes, I have seen very nice attics and some nasty smelly ones also. I would not want the air from the nasty ones in my clothes! Nothing wrong with the nice ones and they got just as hot!
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#42)
by GaryGary on Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 09:00:13 PM MST

Hi,

Here is a nice simple scheme for heat from the attic:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/BlackRoof/BlackRoofCol.htm

Gary
Gary gary@BuildItSolar.com www.BuildItSolar.com
[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#45)
by scottsAI on Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 10:39:31 PM MST

Hello GaryGary,

Black roof cooling: Florida Solar Energy Center
http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/en/publications/pdf/FSEC-CR-1692-07.pdf
First started testing in 2005. Implementation leaves much to be desired. Shows it works.

I like your web, over the last couple months I have spent many days reading almost everything including your many links. Thank you.
Have fun,
Scott.

[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#51)
by GaryGary on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 09:11:47 PM MST

Hi Scott,
Glad to hear that my site is keeping someone besides me up late :)
I like the FSEC scheme -- nice and simple.
Gary
Gary gary@BuildItSolar.com www.BuildItSolar.com
[ Parent ]


Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#28)
by Bruce S on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 08:57:46 AM MST

Scott;
 Apologies for getting WAY off topic!!
Couple things.
Thinking that your dryer is purely electric, you could try matching the 1/3hp (which since 750 watts equals 1 HP ) with a 250 - 300 watt say 12Vdc ( will be more common) should be too hard to find.
Look in the owners manual of your dryer, they normally have the schematic listed for 220Vac dryers. Look real close, there's probably a full-wave bridge rectifier on there.
 This will tell us the Ni-chrome wires are being fed rectified AC which will be nice stable DC, pretty much the same as a toaster.
You could then either measure the DC voltage and then fabricate a DC power source to handle the requirements.
You could also publish a pic of the schematic and we could work from there.
include the dry specs too will be easiest.

By using the current built in wiring such as thermal cut-offs and timers you will be keeping all the built in safety features too.
 Being that this is probably a 220Vac unit one of the lower legs will also be tapped for use for the 120Vac circuits for the timers and required safety items, so if you do try this becareful of those circuits as well.

Hope this helps:-]
Bruce S
   



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#29)
by Bruce S on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 08:59:58 AM MST

opps
"( will be more common) should be too hard to find"
should've been( will be more common) "shouldn't"  be too hard to find!!
Bruce S
 

[ Parent ]


Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#34)
by 3rd Charm on Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 01:37:34 AM MST

Hi all, Newbie here, and this is as good a place to put my first post as any.
I've been battling the electric dryer problem for decades. Fortunately we live way out in the sticks, so during the summer everything goes on the clothes line. There's nothing like sunshine dried country air fresh sheets to sleep on. Jeans and towels only need to be tumbled in the dryer a few mins to get rid of that natural starch nature and hard water provides , especially when the wind isn't there, which isn't very often.

Winters are another story however. We live in Manitoba (Canada), and winters are pretty cold, windy and nasty. Hanging clothes on the line? Forget it. They will dry in a few days, but mostly they just freeze instantly, turn into a para-sail and are blown away, never to be seen again.

A dryer is a must have item during the winter, but it eats electricity almost as bad as the furnace does. I've tried venting it through various home made filters, but they require constant cleaning, and even then there just seems to be more lint/dust in the house.
The humidity is a problem too, especially if your house is well sealed.
The first time I tried venting the dryer inside the house was a disaster. The laundry room become a steam bath, all the paint bubbled and peeled off the ceiling and walls, swelled the drywall, and even warped the hardwood floors.

That was an expensive lesson which took a long time to repair. If you want to try vent your dryer indoors, make sure you leave the door to the laundry room open, and dry at  a lower heat setting.
You can also build a multi-stage lint trap, and vent it into the cold air return of your forced air heating system, which should also filter that air one more time.

We burn  wood almost exclusively for heat during the winter, and have the furnace fan wired so that it can be turned on to circulate air without the elements lighting up.
This also takes care of the humidity problem when venting indoors, stops the static problem from burning wood, as well as eliminates somewhat that sweltering hot room effect the woodstove creates.

Most electric dryers are 220, the motor/fan assembly is a fairly small unit that runs on 120, the elements are what draws the juice. I haven't tried it (yet) but I think either replacing the element with some DC compatible stuff is possible, and of course a DC motor swap or rewire is doable. It may not heat the air as much with a DC element conversion, but that only means you will have to run it a little longer, which should be a problem if you get the juice for free, right?

When I get my first wind machine up and running, it's definatly on the list of things to do. If there is anything good about freezing cold arctic winters we have here, it is plenty of wind maybe too much for the machines you guys have been building.

I hope to have mine up soon, thanks to a lot of work and great ideas you's have all developed. Saved me a lot of disapointment to be sure, and taking down a wind machine when it's -40f in blizzard conditions, which is why I plan to fly at least 3 before next winter. My electric bill is about $6,000 a year. I'm determined to reduce it to the service fee for having a hook up.



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#35)
by scottsAI on Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 06:07:55 AM MST

Hello 3rd Charm,

Good first post.
Here is something that may help based on a dozen hours of research:

A simple improvement of the electric dryer you have is to put a Cross flow heat exchanger on the exhaust of the dryer. Do not make it more than 50% heat recovery, may cause the exhaust temperature to drop below the dew point causing condensation which will cause lint to stick causing the exhaust to get clogged. Test the exhaust temp before and after to determine percent of heat recovery.

Many dryers have lint filter on front with a blower on the front of the dryer (if lint filter is on top then blower is in back), with the exhaust pipe going front to back. A section should be straight, use this section as part of the heat exchanger. On the straight section surround it with a 6" dia vent tube, connect it to the intake of the fresh air, making sure it sucks the air from the back of the tube to front. This is a cross flow heat exchanger. The air as it enters the heater is now pre-heated.

Looks to be a low risk project. I hope to get an old dryer from the recycle center and try it out!
Have fun,
Scott.

[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#36)
by ghurd on Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 08:08:59 AM MST

"cause the exhaust temperature to drop below the dew point causing condensation which will cause lint to stick causing the exhaust to get clogged"
I don't know about that.  Meaning any heat exchanger will probably drop the exhaust temp below the dew point?

My drier runs about 2' sideways in plastic curly pipe, then thin-wall PVC straight up about 5', then sideways again.
The curly pipe isn't so bad, but the verticle pipe clogs in (and for) the first (lowest) 2 feet. Soggy nasty mess.  10' farther away the pipe stays quite clean.
I just plan for the water to drip.  A heat exchanger would make it drip more, and I'd simply plan for that too.
G-


[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#37)
by scottsAI on Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 02:48:37 PM MST

Hello ghurd,

"I don't know about that. Meaning any heat exchanger will probably drop the exhaust temp below the dew point?"
I was reporting from a study back in 1986 from Arther D. Little, Inc.
Their simulation suggested not to recover more than 50% heat in the exchanger or the air would be cooled below the dew point...
Sounds like your exhaust gets cooled in your pips already, and you understand the issue.
You thinking of trying it out? Going for more than 50% heat recovery?
I would love to know how it works. Couple friends with nice new dryers not willing to experiment but would consider doing it if good results were reported. Theory is only just so good.
Have fun,
Scott.

[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#38)
by ghurd on Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 05:19:34 PM MST

"Theory is only just so good".
About 12 years now.
Cleaned the 'long' pipe once, but it was not worth the effort. About nothing but dust in there, and all at the lower part. Had it down, so I cleaned it, last year.
Maybe 99.9% of the 'crap' was stuck in the first 3 feet of verticle pipe or the 20~30 inches of 'twisty flex pipe'.
The lower part is cleaned every season, and for good reason.
The top horizontal run is really long, maybe 18'? Maybe a total run of 30'?
Not good I'm sure. There is a downward bend near the drier end.
The pipe is thin-wall PVC.

Water almost runs out of it, kind of fast too.  A steady drip-drip-drip, and in a couple places.

When vented indoors (not recommended) the heat from the dining room closet is VERY noticable. Long story, but still not recommended.

Meaning either my 6' of pipe is a good heat exchanger and should be well insulateded in warm times,
or my thin-wall PVC is a good heat exchanger as it is, and it simply can't be(?).

I would suggest they plan for a lot of condensation, and not worry about anything else.
(Expect and plan for it to drip)

Photos of the dungeon where my drier is kept upon request.  Not a pretty sight.
G-

[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#44)
by scottsAI on Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 10:31:37 PM MST

Hello ghurd,

A friend just bought a new dryer, wants to relocate with a long vent run.
Thanks for the heads up!!
The vent will be cooled just like the heat exchanger with the same problems, condensation and lint build up! I must give him a call. Thanks!
Have fun,
Scott.

[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#43)
by GaryGary on Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 09:21:42 PM MST

Hi,

There is a plus side to letting the water in the dryer exhaust condense.  You recover the heat that went into vaporizing the water.  This is about 1000 BTU per lb of water -- so it appreciable.  It seems like this is probably enough extra heat to be worth working out a way to solve the water/lint problem?

Gary
Gary gary@BuildItSolar.com www.BuildItSolar.com
[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#46)
by scottsAI on Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 10:44:38 PM MST

Hello GaryGary,

I agree.
I intend to look into lint solutions, go for the Max heat recovery I can devise.
Any ideas?
I have couple, keeps flunking the KISS test.
Have fun,
Scott.

[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#52)
by GaryGary on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 09:15:33 PM MST

Hi Scott,

Maybe a good lint filter upstream of the condensation area?

The link thats further down this thread has some pictures of a commercial unit that might provide some ideas?

Gary
Gary gary@BuildItSolar.com www.BuildItSolar.com
[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#53)
by scottsAI on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 12:31:53 AM MST

Hello GaryGary,

You mean the electrolux?
Unit does what my goals are, recovery is less than goals.
Bruce in post 49 suggested a venturi, I saw one for woodworking post 50.
I like this idea! Don't know if it will work, looks good.
To go a little further by combining the venturi and heat exchanger into one unit.

Doing some quick math, looks like 400whr to heat, 200whr to run the motor.
600whr vs 3,000whr for electric dryer! Wanted 300whr, can't see it happening.
Have fun,
Scott.

[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#54)
by 3rd Charm on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 02:19:17 PM MST

Condesation is a problem even when venting into the cold air return (well filtered through a home made lint trap first). a layer of fine dust builds up over time (sticks like glue too) making frequent cleaning of the cold air return duct for the fist 20 feet or so from where the dryer vent comes in neccessary.

I was thinking a heat exchanger would have the same problem, and eventually plug up both on the exaust and intake sides, especially in the winter, when you are drawing in fresh air.  I think the cold air return duct is the best way, at least for my set up, because buring wood takes care of the excess humidity. If you don't burn wood, humidity will be still a problem, especially if you have one of those fancy furances that regulates humidity to begin with. That would probably made that type of heating system go biserk, and vent all your air outside to get rid of the moisture.

When I get my wind machines built and flying, my main prioity is to heat a lot of water, and install hydronic radiant floor heating throughout the house and my workshop.
I'm getting old, and sick and tired of cutting and splitting 7 cords of wood a year, which now that the snow is gone, I should be getting started doing now. I'm going to gamble this summer and say the heck with the wood, I'll use my free time to build some windmills. Except for wire and magnets, I have everything I need. (except I'm already deviating a little from how things are done here. I'll be using dodge hubs and axles for my rotors).

If I can get the water hot enough, I should be able to use a few heater cores ripped out of some wrecks, (I have a large graveyard of auto's) and rig up a closed air system for the dryer so it doesn't suck any air out of the house, and I can keep the laundry room door closed. It might take a little longer for clothes to dry with that type of heat,(hot water radiant) but if all goes well, the power for the dryer motor will be free as well.

I do see one potential mistake that others may be making without realizing it when putting the magnets on the rotors, especially rectagular ones.  I see that great care is taken to make sure that the poles are stagered N-S-N-S, but how do you really know if the first magnet put down has the north pole facing up, or the south pole?  Worse, what about the polarity along the inner diameter and outer diameters? If those poles are facing every which way, that could cause a lot of stray currents to fly around , making uneeded heat. A Gausemeter should be used to make sure the poles on all sides of the magnets are properly aliegned, and perhaps put to better use cleaning up stray currents produced by other components.
Just a thought.

[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#55)
by scottsAI on Sun Apr 29, 2007 at 12:57:10 PM MST

Hello 3rd Charm,

Not your typical newbie! Great.

Check my post 50, link to a (Hydro)cyclone Separator. Link is for wood dust, works with moisture and dust. I intend to integrate the cyclone + heat exchanger into one unit. I called it a venturi earlier, messed up the name. Just like when I called the heat exchanger a cross flow heat exchanger when it's a counter flow heat exchanger! I expect the cyclone will work Much better than the lint trap. Condensation will form in the cyclone/exchanger, expecting the water to wash the lint out. Collects in the bottom. Fine filter at the drain to get rid of the water keeping the lint. Depending on size may not have to empty every load. Wait a while after using dryer to empty the lint, time to dry out, no mess. Skipping the dryers own lint filter, here just gets in the way.

Using a counter flow heat exchanger I'm expecting to only use 300whr of heat or 1,023BTU, very small water to air heat exchanger needed for this amount of heat. If your going to mess with the inside of the Dryer, try recirculation all the air until the load is heated will reduce the heat needed by 20-30%. Which is how I got 300whr. I assumed full recirculation until temperature is up 80% and the heat exchanger is 85% efficient. Just heating the water in the clothes; 100'F * 1.5lb water / 3.4BTU/w = 100watts. Another 150whr for the tumbler and blower. At 450whr per load, almost not worth finding another heat source, but of course we will!

Heating
You seem focused on wind for heating. I take it not much solar during the winter?
Even with DIY wind gen I can build a 100KBTU solar heater for MUCH less. Check my post #30, I make a suggestion to build a nice but cheap solar heat collector.
Long term I would be more comfortable with solar than a wind gen due to maintenance. Send me email if you have questions.

For the large wind generators going with induction motor as a generator is lower cost.
One 24 foot wind gen is 5-10kw, which is only 34kBTU, need more than this to heat most homes.
Induction can be grid-tied if you have it and have net metering. Pitch control is required with grid-tie, which turns off most people, except me. I have a fundamental design.

I have a friend with 2000' ranch/basement, two face cords of wood for the winter in MI. He has one inch insulating shutters outside he closes at night. Most windows have 1 inch insulation tightly installed in the lower half. For backup he uses about $25/yr in gas, the monthly min is much more. He is thinking of removing gas, switching to propane, but would have to change all of his equipment...

N-S of magnets is found with a compass.
Or use the magnets themselves. (be careful) the actual order if N-S-N, or S-N-S does not mater. Same pole repulse, opposite attract! I have a Gausemeter:-)
Have fun,
Scott.

[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#39)
by tecker on Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 06:26:10 PM MST

My greenhouse doubles as a dryer I put a line down the walkways and turn on the exhaust fans It puts air down the center . I need a large door though to let nature in . I 've been keeping nature out lately.



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#40)
by gale on Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 07:21:04 PM MST

The "new" expensive clothes dryer in the US is based on a european design. The best part it is extremely efficient and your clothes come out wrinkle free.  It looks like a two level wardrobe.  A three foot deep case, four ft tall, by 3 foot wide, usually stacked on top of another unit.  The entire front opens as a door.  The interior is a series of rods place about 8 inches apart in multiple rows verticle and hortizontal.  The rods point out toward the door.  The clothes are hanged over the rods. The only moving part is a small fan which vents out of the top.  On the inlet is a small heater.
  A re invented clothesline, but it has several great advantages; 1) by heating the air only slightly, greatly decreases drying time, and helps holds the fabric color better.  2) the moving air-  generally eliminates wrinkles 3) The lack of tumbleing extends clothing life.  The retail unit costs about $1500.00



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#41)
by coldspot on Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 08:48:02 PM MST

"http://www.laundrysystems.electrolux.com/Files/pdf/Heat%20recovery%20pipes.pdf"



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#47)
by scottsAI on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 07:33:54 AM MST

Hello coldspot,

Interesting read, Yes, like what I have in mind.
The efficiency improvements are only 10% at 24'c?

Report I read with 50% heat recovery claimed 20% efficiency improvement.
So this is doing much less?
I hope to do more than 50% heat recovery! Heck with the lint!
There must be a solution. Any ideas?
Have fun,
Scott.

[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#49)
by Bruce S on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 12:56:37 PM MST

Scott;
  Here's a thought, I re-read some of my old Mother Earth News magz, and back when they were trying to design a better stove pipe for pot-belly types and such. They came up with the idea of using a venturi type catch.
Basically this turned out to be an opening in the first "J" not compeltely on the bottom but at a 45 degree , this allowed the seuit<-sp? to collect. I have a gas dryer and too need to come up with a much better way of recovering the waste air.
I have a little bit of room in our laundry area and am thinking of using some solid piping to make a turn out of the back, use a "J" connector cut an opening and use a gal pickle jar to allow the condensation to collect there.
With natrul gas, care must be taken to "bubble" the waste air first to due possible unburned gases, but by using the waste air back into the unit, this may work as the bubbler.
I am sure that lint would collect there as well due to gravity , which is why I am either going to use a glass jug or make use of a clear plastic gal jug.
I the Alky making biz this is simliar to refluxing:-)

Thoughts?
Bruce S

 

[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#50)
by scottsAI on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 02:42:49 PM MST

Hello Bruce S,

Sounds like your ready to give this a try.
Cool or should I say HOT!

I recently looked at a dust collector for woodworking.
Uses a large clear venturi...
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/Measurement.cfm
Link is top right, other good stuff there.
Good enough for wood dust, may be just the thing for lint!

Thanks for the idea!
Have fun,
Scott.

[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#58)
by Bruce S on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:00:14 PM MST

Scott;
 hadn't kept up with the replies here, sorry for that.

That link is quite intersting and very informative!!
I think you're right, if it'll pickup those pesky little dusties from working with MDF it'll certainly work with lint.

Thanks
Bruce S
 

[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#61)
by scottsAI on Thu May 03, 2007 at 08:54:30 AM MST

Hello Bruce S,

Your venturi comment, I translated it into vortex... But kept calling it venturi.
Rather funny, not the same thing. Did get me on to the right idea. (I hope).

GE has a 1998 patent using a vortex lint filter, goes in the dryer door.
Rather strange looking thing, can't find it in any of their units.
Not a full cyclone filter as the link above.

Wrapping the heat exchanger around the cyclone filter servers 2 functions.

  1. lint filter.
  2. Condensing heat exchanger
Electrical 400whr energy cost to dry a load!
Solar heat should drop it to 120whr/load for tumbler and blower motor.

The make up air can have a cost exceeding the dryer air heating cost. Air conditioned air is a good example. The math suggests it's better to get the dryer air from outside. Up north in the winter, the heat and moisture is generally welcome in the home.

Final step is Looking at using desiccants, no air in or out. May dry faster, need to finish my research.

Have fun,
Scott.

[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#62)
by ghurd on Thu May 03, 2007 at 09:21:22 AM MST

I think if the exhaust is run into a 6' long tin 3.5 x 14.5" (?) duct pipe, on it's edge, the air would slow, the extra surface area would cool the air better, and the lint would settle to the low (3.5") side.  I don't think much would be on the top or sides.
Pop off the ends twice a year to pull out the gunk.

At about 12' total distance from the output, in my 4" PVC pipes, there was VERY little crap in there and all at the bottom. Looked about like someone slowly poured blue paint into the horizontal pipe.

I had a plan for a half dozen 4', 4" duct pipes "connected in parallel". A few dents here and there to add some turbulence to help with exchanging heat and seperating the lint?
Never did it.  Those Ts are expensive, and it takes a lot of Ts! LOL

Plan for a lot of condensation.
G-

[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#63)
by scottsAI on Thu May 03, 2007 at 09:40:53 AM MST

Hello ghurd,

If the pipe cools, then the heat goes into the house? Michigan in the winter that would be good, not in the summer.

In your dryer it has a lint filter, so what your seeing in the pipes got passed it?

"Plan for a lot of condensation."
Ever measure it? Looks like 1.5 gal of water in the clothes. Wonder how much will condense out?

My first step is to get an electric dryer, GE's has couple models with a straight round 4" exhaust pipe, will put over it a 6" pipe for the intake air preheater. Found recirculation of the air until clothes are up to temperature reduces the heat needed by 20% or so.

Need to find out how large (long) of a heat exchanger is needed?
Counter flow has the shortest length.

Have fun,
Scott.

[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#64)
by ghurd on Thu May 03, 2007 at 12:10:00 PM MST

Lint gets past it, yes. Much more than I expected.

How much condenses? I don't know. No way a gallon.  The outside exhaust looks like any other.
It drips out in about 6 places because I didn't cement it together. Have a 44 oz Taco Bell cup under the main drip, dump it every 3rd(?) load.
Lost cause in this basement, too damp/wet in summer to see much difference, nearly dries on impact in winter.

How big for a homebrew heat exchanger? Probably like wire, the bigger the better. LOL
G-


[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#57)
by helowrench on Wed May 02, 2007 at 10:20:11 AM MST

Would you be better off (all things considered IE: lint accumulation, condensation, etc) by just plumbing the intake side of the dryer to draw air from a heat exchanger in your attic?
I have an available straight run of 30 ft horizontal and then a 30 ft drop into the dryer. Makes me think that I could run an uninsulated 6" steel duct  (to lower the airspeed and promote the heat transfer) through 40ft of attic space with the air intake screened and open to the outside air.
This would eliminate the heating of replacement air, while greatly increasing the dryer intake air temp (Dallas TX).

Rob



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#59)
by Bruce S on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:10:55 PM MST

Rob;
   That's an interesting idea. If you have fairly easy access to an internal wall that goes straight up to the attic; then a pipe using the incoming attic air during the winter time would allow for reuse of the heated air that migrates up to it.
Only thnig that would have to be careful about: those super tight attics that have almost no migrating heat.
If do this during the summer , then even that pre-heated air could help to cause an air draw down and possibly stir the attic heated air up.
I would put the draw tube up as high as possible, this would obtain the hottest point of air, most attics have hot and more importantly, dry air, this too would help in removing the moist air from the clothes.

On a side note about all the lint being captured, that stuff is great for starting fires:-!! in wood stoves , wood fireplaces etc. , better that just putting it in the dump.
OR if you have problems with deer eating the bark on your tender young fruit trees just put some of this stuff around, they'll steer clear of it.

Bruce S

[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#60)
by helowrench on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:49:25 PM MST

i do have direct access to the attic from my laundry room, and was thinking to put the intake tube on a run along the peak. Straight and level for about 30 ft then a simple 90 to turn it down, then a straight pipe 10 ft down through the ceiling into the laundry room.

As far as a "super tight" attic, mine is far from it, built in '78 upgraded to ridge venting in '03, I am also looking at additional insulation and solar powered attic exhaust fans to remove some of the excess heat in the summer (100 F very common in the 6 months of summer) but that is all for another thread. {I have to get some good temp logging equipment before I start that}

Rob

[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#65)
by GaryGary on Thu May 03, 2007 at 06:52:34 PM MST

Hi Rob,
That does seem like a good idea.

I wonder if you really need the heat exchanger part at all?
Is there a problem with just drawing air from around the attic peak?
It seems like any air the new dryer inlet pipe draws from the attic will just be made up by a little more airflow into the attic vents?  
A dryer only uses about 170 cfm when running -- my wholehouse fan pulls about 4000cfm through the (somewhat enlarged) attic venting and into the house.

How do you get the dryer to use only the air that comes down from the attic inlet pipe?
Maybe, seal up the laundry room?  Or, some type of inlet manifold? Or?

In the winter, the attic scheme might be limited to sunny afternoons -- depending on the climate.

Gary
Gary gary@BuildItSolar.com www.BuildItSolar.com
[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#66)
by helowrench on Fri May 04, 2007 at 09:42:12 AM MST

Gary,
I am looking at absolutely no heat exchanger, for the absolute minimal maintenance.
also I am in Dallas TX, so even during the coldest day here last year my attic was warm. Any snow we have here (rare in and of itself) will be melted off of the roof by noon.
I may at some later time seek to utelise the dryer's exhaust air for some purpose, but not initially.
I am only looking to increase the dryer's intake air to minimalize the time that the heating elements turn on. I may be forced to create a logic circuit for this purpose sop that the dryer can be used as normal (or retrain the wife to use the "tumble dry" setting during the daytime and early evening. It would be much easier to create and install a simple logic circuit activated by intake air temp)

If I have any time this weekend, I will pull the covers off of the dryer to see about making/installing an intake manifold.

Rob

[ Parent ]



Re: What about Clothes Dryers? (3.00 / 0) (#67)
by scottsAI on Fri May 04, 2007 at 12:34:47 PM MST

Hello helowrench,

This picture is from an electric dryer:
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/dryer-fan.jpg

Straight pipe is 4", wrap a 6" pipe around it, 20" or so is now a heat exchanger.
Use as air preheater, must be simpler to do then piping out for some heated air?

All dryers have a temperature controller, with preheated air the heater will run less. Check dryer schematic to satisfy yourself is OK.
Have fun,
Scott.

[ Parent ]



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