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Duogen generator with Four Winds 5' rotor.


By la7qz, Section Mechanical
Posted on Tue Apr 3rd, 2007 at 10:01:27 PM MST
A continuation of my sailboat wind generator project.

Hi all

First of all, a little background information. I have lived full time on a yacht for close to 15 years. I bought the present boat in Trinidad last summer after loosing the old one (and all my tools) in an accident. For much of this time I've been living truly off grid at anchor (not even a rope to land) with solar power augmented by infernal combustions. I'm a radio ham and understand about electricity and some basic electronics, but most of what I know about wind power comes from reading this forum the last week or so. You'll find more background information in the last thread I started here where we decided that the 12V outboard (trolling) motor I have probably wasn't going to be of much use as the generator for a wind turbine.
(http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/3/26/24711/3952)

I have now got my hands on a much more suitable generator than the trolling motor. It is the generator part (only) of a Duogen wind / water generator. The web site for the original product is here: http://www.duogen.co.uk/

I already had a 5' two blade rotor with a centrifugal air brake from a Four Winds wind generator, and with limited tools and funds, I will not be able to buy or make any other blades any time soon, so that is what I intend to use. When I get more tools together, I may decide to carve some better blades if the improvement is going to be worth the effort.

Here is what I've got:





The shaft diameter is a snug fit in the four winds hub even though the bearings described below would imply that the shaft is metric. I don't have calipers here. The hole seen through the end of the shaft could accommodate set screws for which there are threaded holes in the Four Winds hub. Approximately 1/4" of the inboard end of the hub would have to be cut away to get the shaft deep enough into the hub for the setscrews to line up with the hole in the shaft:




This is the open back of the generator with the visible magnet plate. I believe there is another inside the coils which can be seen around the edge of the plate. I have a document with disassembly instructions, but no drawings or photos of the inside.




The rectifier bridge was totally corroded out, so my intention is to bring the AC wiring (suitably beefed up, say #10 AWG) down to a control box inside the boat with a rectifier and a switch for shorting the windings to stop the generator.




Here the three wires coming out of the coils can be seen. Part of the stator can also be seen and it seems to be baked in epoxy.

I have not taken the generator apart any further than what you can see in the pictures yet, as I don't particularly want strong magnets around the boat until I have all parts available to reassemble it.

The bearings in the generator are shot, and I have a document from the manufacturers which describes how to take it apart to replace the bearings. The bearings are described by the manufacturer as "17 x 35 x 10mm radial shielded" and the shaft seal is 17 x 35 x 7. In the normal installation, the generator is driven by a long shaft down from the rotor, so there is no thrust load on the generator itself. The manufacturer says that in thrust applications they "fit an angular contact 17 x 35 x 10mm at the 'seal' end of the axle". I'm not sure what they are describing here. Is this a different bearing?

It's quite obvious that the attempts to waterproof the unit from the factory have failed miserably. My idea is to paint everything inside with epoxy primer to waterproof it and leave the back of the unit open to the elements. That would mean installing a seal on the inside of the inner bearing too, but that should not be too difficult. Or maybe better (waterproof) bearings could be used that would fit the available space. The turbine will be installed halfway up my mizzen mast, so it will be subject to rain and moist salty air, but not to direct saltwater. Suggestions would be welcome.

I would like to bring the three outputs from the stator down to a control box which would contain a rectifier bridge as well as a switch to short the windings to stop the rotor. If shorting all three windings dead would provide a too violent stop, I could short one first, then the other when the turbine slows down, or maybe dump to a dump load first to slow it and then short it. When I rotate the magnet plate by hand (with much rumbling of bearings) and short two of the windings, the generator slows and stops, but not very abruptly. I haven't had enough hands available to short it while I was still attempting to turn it. I'll try and use the trolling motor to spin it up one day to see what happens.

At a later date, I may install a small water heater on the boat and use that to dump any excess power from the turbine as well as my three 55W panels. I normally shower in cold water here in the tropics, but heating it a little might make any future female crew happier. The beauty of it is that one would be more likely to wish for a warm shower on a really windy day. The water heater will also be heated from the main engine cooling water of course, but I try to reduce my infernal combustions to the bare minimum.

At the moment, with three 55W panels I am generating slightly less that I am using, but it usually evens out with normal use of the engine in and out of harbour while cruising.

Any suggestions and advice would be welcome.

PS. I can post photos of the Four Winds rotor and centrifugal air brake later if anyone wants to see them.

PPS. My engine mounts failed on Friday night and I had to put into St. Vincent. That's what cruising is all about, repairing boats in exotic places! It's been raining for the past three days, so at least my water tank is full. Rainwater always feels nicer for a shower than tapwater. :)

Regards,

Owen Morgan
Yacht "Magic"
Young Island Cut, St. Vincent

A photo of my boat can be found here:
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/737793

Click here for my latest reported position:
http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/winlink.cgi?call=LA7QZ

Duogen generator with Four Winds 5' rotor. | 10 comments (10 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Duogen generator with Four Winds 5' rotor. (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by bigdan on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 10:14:21 AM MST
(User Info)

Man you are living the life I have always dreamed of. Need a 46 yr old machinist to live in and help? :) Good Luck and have fun! Bigdan



Re: Duogen generator with Four Winds 5' rotor. (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by la7qz on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 06:30:26 PM MST
(User Info) http://home.no.net/naomij

Hi

Serious off topic alert!

"Man you are living the life I have always dreamed of"

That's easy. Sell the house, apartment, trailer --- whatever and buy a boat. Living afloat is much cheaper than living on land. I lived aboard in Norway for a decade. Good insulation and a good oil furnace, and Bob's a close relative.

"Need a 46 yr old machinist to live in and help?"

I could have used a helping hand (or someone to swear at) today when I was replacing the rear engine mounts. I can not even begin to describe how tortuous it was to get in to access the engine mounts or how incredibly uncomfortable the working position was. I have scratches all over to prove it. I'd like to have a word or three with the people who built this boat, but they are all in Hong Kong.

I worked two winters as a brickie in northern Norway. My worst day at work was sitting on a roof building a chimney in a howling snowstorm. We had to finish it, the roofers were coming next morning.(They had brilliant sunshine.)That is my measure of misery. Replacing those engine mounts today was the second day in my life that cruising has been nearly as bad as that. The other one was when my last boat was sinking under me halfway across the Atlantic.

Anyway, the engine mounts are done and I'll be heading north tomorrow. Don't know when I'll next have good Internet access from the boat.

Regards,

Owen Morgan
Yacht "Magic"
Young Island Cut, St. Vincent

A photo of my boat can be found here:
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/737793

Click here for my latest reported position:
http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/winlink.cgi?call=LA7QZ

If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
[ Parent ]



Re: Duogen generator with Four Winds 5' rotor. (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Sparky01 on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 01:47:40 PM MST
(User Info)

I have got to agree you have got it made out there without a cre in the world.
The bearings that the turbine is calling for are 6003Z ( or 6003ZZ if there is a shield on both sides ) and the angular contact bearing ( that is designed for more thrust load ) is a 7003Z or 7003ZZ. Shielded bearings are fine in most applications but if there is a contamination issue you may be better off with a sealed bearing. Which would be a 6003VV or for the angular contact 7003VV ( some bearing manufacturers use a 2RS prefix instead of VV ). Also the shaft diameter is 17mm unless the shaft has a step in it.
Good luck, those are some beautiful photo's



Re: Duogen generator with Four Winds 5' rotor. (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by la7qz on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 06:52:44 PM MST
(User Info) http://home.no.net/naomij

Hi Sparky

Thanks for the info on the bearings. I think sealed bearings are probably the way to go in a marine installation. Is there any good reason I shouldn't use the angular contact bearings for both front and rear? Would it be an idea to use two front bearings since the alternator was not originally intended to support the weight of a rotor? That four winds rotor is quite heavy.

The shaft does have a step in it, I had noticed but forgot, but it can even be seen in the photo, so it seems it's 17mm where the bearings are and 5/8" where the hub goes. That suits me just fine.

Any comments on my plan to paint the innards with epoxy and leave the back plate off?

How would an alternator like this normally react when shorted? Dead stop and rip the prop off, slow and stop, or slow and keep spinning slowly? I need to be able to stop it dead somehow, as there may be times when I need to go up the mizzen mast to fix something. Also, I would want to stop it and secure the rotor when heavy weater threatens or if I leave the boat. Yawing it out of the wind to stop it is not an option as the installation will be non-yawing on the front of my mizzen mast, so that would mean turning the whole boat which is not practical at anchor. (Installed non-yawing, it'll work when the boat is at anchor, but not when sailing, a compromise I'm willing to live with.)

BTW, if you're wondering why there is one normal 4 diode rectifier in a three phase alternator, there was one more where only half of it was used, but that was missing when I got the unit.

Regards,

Owen Morgan
Yacht "Magic"
Young Island Cut, St. Vincent

A photo of my boat can be found here:
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/737793

Click here for my latest reported position:
http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/winlink.cgi?call=LA7QZ
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
[ Parent ]



Re: Duogen generator with Four Winds 5' rotor. (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 05:03:16 PM MST
(User Info)

Owen,
That sounds like a much better generator (alternator) than a treadmill motor once you get the bearings for it.  -good luck and keep us posted on your progress!\
p.s. Next time send us some nice Topless pictures. (Of boats I mean)



Re: Duogen generator with Four Winds 5' rotor. (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Flux on Thu Apr 5th, 2007 at 01:07:02 AM MST
(User Info)

Normally with 2 angular contact bearings they are mounted back to back. If you only have thrust in one direction it is unlikely that you can fit 2 facing the same direction and share the thrust, most housings would prevent this and if they didn't you would need clever alignment to get load on both.

I would just fit an angular contact on the one that can carry thrust ( depends on housing) To be honest I don't think the thrust load is unreasonable for conventional ball races but one angular contact gives you security.

Whether you can stop the thing with a brake switch depends on the alternator and the prop. The alternator needs to be powerful in relation to the prop to be sure that it will brake.

[ Parent ]



Re: Duogen generator with Four Winds 5' rotor. (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Sparky01 on Thu Apr 5th, 2007 at 06:48:54 AM MST
(User Info)

I agree with Flux on the angular contact (7003VV) for the front and install a standard single row (6003VV) on the rear as getting 2 angular contact bearings to be loaded at the same time would require calipers and shim stock. In order to verify that your alternator is large enough to load and stop the blades when shorted, is there a tag on the machine to the output? What was the original blade Diameter?



Re: Duogen generator with Four Winds 5' rotor. (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by la7qz on Thu Apr 5th, 2007 at 02:20:07 PM MST
(User Info) http://home.no.net/naomij

Hi again.

Thanks for that Sparky. I don't know when I'll be able to pick up the bearings and rectifier. Possibly in Martinique where I'll probably be in a week or so.

I'm not sure of the original blade diameter, but there is more information on the product at: http://www.duogen.co.uk/

Here is a photo of the original blades. Look quite a bit smaller than 5':


I do have the option of easily reducing the diameter of my turbine to around 4.5' simply by moving the blades closer to the hub. Maybe I should start with that first and then decide whether to go with the 5' diameter based on how it performs with a 4.5' diameter?

Regards,

Owen Morgan
Yacht "Magic"
Young Island Cut, St. Vincent

A photo of my boat can be found here:
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/737793

Click here for my latest reported position:
http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/winlink.cgi?call=LA7QZ
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
[ Parent ]



Re: Duogen generator with Four Winds 5' rotor. (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by la7qz on Thu Apr 5th, 2007 at 07:01:28 AM MST
(User Info) http://home.no.net/naomij

Hi again

I couldn't find a photo on the Four Winds website, but the centrifugal air brake I am using looks identical to the one on the Ferris turbine in this photo. The blades are different though:



Probably heading north towards St. Lucia this evening.

Regards,

Owen Morgan
Yacht "Magic"
Young Island Cut, St. Vincent

A photo of my boat can be found here:
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/737793

Click here for my latest reported position:
http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/winlink.cgi?call=LA7QZ
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.



Re: Duogen generator with Four Winds 5' rotor. (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by la7qz on Fri Apr 27th, 2007 at 07:34:24 AM MST
(User Info) http://home.no.net/naomij

Hi all

I got some information about my Duogen alternator from the manufacturer. They say it should not harm it to short it dead to stop it, as long as the blades are restrained shortly after. I also have some numbers.

They say:
"Cut in RPM, iwhen battery terminal voltage is reached, happens at around 220 RPM.
100 watts occurs at around 400 RPM, 200 watts at 600 RPM. Max output, say 650 - 700 watts at 1300 RPM."

As mentioned, I intend to fly this thing with a 5' two bladed Four Winds rotor with a centrifugal air brake as seen in a photo I showed earier in this thread. Here is a photo of the original Four Winds with blades like the ones I intend to use, but without the air brake:



Any comments?

I'm still in Antigua. Have sailed a friend's boat in the Classic Yacht races, an awesome experience racing against some very famous very beautiful classic yachts. My big high was seeing the famous Hereshoff ketch Ticonderoga on the water.

I'll stick around for Antigua race week before moving on to St. Maarten, or maybe I'll find some work here and just stay.

Regards,

Owen Morgan
Yacht Magic
Falmouth harbour anchorage
Antigua

If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.



Duogen generator with Four Winds 5' rotor. | 10 comments (10 topical, 0 editorial)
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Related Links
· magnet
· http://www.fieldlines.com/stor y/2007/3/26/24711/3952
· http://www.duogen.co.uk/
· http://www.panoramio.com/photo /737793
· http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/w inlink.cgi?call=LA7QZ
· Also by la7qz

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