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creek water for domestic use


By scesnick, Section Water
Posted on Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 04:07:20 PM MST
creek water for home use

I asked this question a few months back but now have a gameplan for doing this that i would like toy run by you guys first.

to recap, I live on top of a mountian on a farm and I have really crappy high iron content in my 5 year old well. I also have a VERY clean creek that originates on my property that is about 500ft from my house. My wife is sick of the iron water and it is time to do something about it. i think drilling another well would just produce another high iron content well. I understand the whole aspect of contaminated water and all that but i have no livestock on my farm and the creek originates right on the property and gains volume the futher down stream it goes.  This creek was used for years by the town down in the valley as their primary water source.

here is my plan and please, feel free to pick it apart and suggest things. I am by no means a pro and really have never done anything like this before. I also have very thick skin so you will not offend me.

I plan on building a small dam and putting a pipe in the dam and then piping that water about 300 ft down stream ( closer to my house ) to a buried septic tank ( new of course. lol) allowing for the overflow to run back into the creek.
I then want to put a pump inside the tank and pump the IRONLESS water to my house where it would run into the $4,000 filtering system i bought that is useless against my iron well water but should do very well with the creek water.

My biggest questions are:  will this work, and what size pump would do the job?

the tank will be about 300 ft from my house and my house sits about 75ft. higher than the tank .  

creek water for domestic use | 50 comments (50 topical)

Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by jimovonz on Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 01:13:26 PM MST

scesnick, many folk take water for domestic use from the ground or just below here in NZ. The main concern for this water is the level of faecal coliforms. Small animals might also die in or near the creek. Hopefully your $4000 filter is at least 0.45micron.
Obviously an intake screen is necessary in a creek. There are many hydro examples around. I can get a picture of mine made from PVC pipe if you would like.
I don't know what your septic tanks are like where you are but the ones commonly used here in NZ require a bit of work to make them water tight. Because they are used with a leach field anyway, its not of much concern if they leak into the ground. I did seal mine because I had thoughts at the time of using it for methane production. I simply plastered up all the holes and painted it with tank sealant (I also insulated it with polystyrene and pumice).
I don't  think you need to go to the trouble of installing an overflow all the way back to the creek. A ballcock on the tank will keep it full and stop any overflow.
In an ideal system your tank would be higher than the house so that you didn't need to pump it (maybe a small inline pressure pump). My house uses an 800l header tank in the roof space and doesn't need a pump - though I did use over sized plumbing to compensate and it did cause some trouble with the califont when the solar heated water was in the 30-40degC range).
I'm sure that if its set up properly, it will all work fine!



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by scesnick on Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 02:14:22 PM MST

jimovonz,

I would love to see the pics of your system. A picture is worth a thousand words !!

[ Parent ]



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by jimovonz on Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 09:49:14 PM MST

I though I had pics somewhere but unfortunately I don't. However - even though its raining today, I went up ad took some. Rather than flood your post with lots of pics, I put them in a diary here: http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/6/11/34653/1661

[ Parent ]


Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by jimjjnn on Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 09:17:02 PM MST

When I went to camp as a kid, we had a well 20 feet from a very small stream and water was filtered through the ground from the stream to the well. We had an old displacement pump that pumped 300 feet uphill to our cabin.
Provided more than enough water for all of us. Water was stored in a 500 gallon tank on a 20 foot tower. Not much pressure but with large pipes we could take hot showers with plenty of flow. Water was heated by pipes zigzaged across the back of an old wood stove in the kitchen. Only had to run the pump once a week.
Went up last year to see if it was still there and sue enuff. The new owner said he still uses the same system but put in new more efficient stove that heats water faster. Said he rebuilt the same old pump by the creek and still works fine. He dug the well 5 feet deeper so he could water his garden. Says he runs pump twice a week as he uses more water for garden
Denver,CO
[ Parent ]


Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by vawtman on Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 01:27:10 PM MST

Hi scesnick
 What company made the $4000 filtering system that is useless for removing iron from water?
 Is the water discolored right from the tap?

 Maybe you could raise the pump higher in the well.

 Take this with a grain of salt though.



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by scesnick on Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 02:12:45 PM MST

Well, first i had a rainsoft system ( $2,600 ) and it worked for about 2 months then it would not re generate itself ( clean itself) Then I got sick of paying rainsoft to come and fix the piece of junk so I went with one online and it actually worked for about 2 years. I think i just simply have too much iron in the well water and it overwhelms these filters after a while.

And yes, the water is crappy right from the tap. Unless we don't use any water for a few days then it is O.K. for about 2-3 showers then it is crappy once again.

Could you explain raising the well pump a little more? You peaked my interest...

[ Parent ]



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by vawtman on Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 02:45:25 PM MST

Part of my job is to oversee the maintenance on a large municipal indoor pool.The wells have high mineral content.When the thing is drained and refilled with so called city water you can hardly see the bottom.The utilities think its coming from the river.Its not obviously.

 After a few hours things start settling and the whole bottom becomes covered with deposites and once the diatomacous earth filter system is started and running a couple days and the bottom cleaned its perfect.The filter grids turn dark brown.

 Im no well expert but thought this could be happening with your well.The stuff is almost like dust in air and migrates easily along the bottom.

 Maybe others have more experience with wells but seems practical to me.

 Mark

[ Parent ]



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by luckeydog on Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 02:53:26 PM MST

My father has run into the same problem you are describing.

His solution was to dig a pit 12 feet deep 20 feet from the creek.
then he installed a 36" tube with holes in it  and filled around the tube
with rock pea gravel and sand about 10 feet out from the pipe.
and installed a pump inside the tube. this has worked very well for about 12 years now.

the filter system has a UV filter on it along with filters ranging from 2 micron to .5 micron.

just a suggestion.

luckeydog
wind gens are much funner to watch than solar panels. Broomfield,Colorado



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by scottsAI on Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 04:47:36 PM MST

Hello scesnick,
My water started out at 3-4ppm, 10 years later 7ppm.
First water softener: middle road Kenmore $350 in 1986 working find when I sold it.

After 10 years replaced with High end Kenmore rated for 8ppm Iron, $650 1997.

Another 5 years, iron peaked out at 7-8ppm most of the year, spring time 9-10ppm.
Softener needed some help. Added $700 Kenmore Iron Filter. POS.
Not in use at this time.

If you have a tank for the well water, by bubbling air into it will cause the iron to come out and settle too bottom of tank. Yes, that easy!

The water tank needs to hold the water for 30 minutes or more for the chemistry to happen.

When it comes to YOUR water it pays to learn as much BEFORE you get started to prevent expensive errors. Several other options for iron removal.
Have fun,
Scott.



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by scesnick on Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 05:05:59 PM MST

So, If i just simply get say a 500 gallon tank in my basement and fill it with well water and let it settle i could just simply drain off the iron from the bottom once the water settles?

[ Parent ]


Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by scottsAI on Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 11:51:21 PM MST

Hello scesnick,

YES.

Works better if you bubble air. The iron becomes Iron oxide, is now something your softener can handle as a filter. Here is the first example I found:
http://www.watervalue.com/terminator/t1000.html

My softener hardness setting is 25, due to the iron I must have it set for 65.
Regens every other day. With iron filter it would go days...
Have fun,
Scott.


[ Parent ]



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by stephent on Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 05:21:38 PM MST

How much drop from where you plan to build the dam to somewhere lower on your place?
If any appreciable drop is there, it's entirely possible to use a ram type pump and have the water pressurized all the way into your filter system.
After making sure of water "drinkability" of course.



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by scesnick on Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 05:23:55 PM MST

I have about 50 ft of head from the dam to my future micro hydro site ( which is closest to my house that the stream runs) unfortunately, my house is about 75ft higher than the stream.

[ Parent ]


Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by jimovonz on Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 10:05:08 PM MST

I would recomend anyone who has a suitable site to investigate the use of ram pumps. I have made three for my own use and 4 more for other folk using simple plumbing parts. The largest and oldest is still going strong after about 2.5 years. I have replaced the main brass 'clack' valve (modified check valve) with a heavy duty bronze/stainless version because the old one was showing signs of wear. I have not done a propper post on it but there are some pics/details here: http://www.fieldlines.com/comments/2005/6/21/152654/398/5

[ Parent ]


Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by Nando on Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 01:54:07 PM MST

Jimovonz:

Can you be more specific about the "heavy duty bronze/stainless " valve ?.

I would like to know the availability and the source for it, if possible.
Thanks

Nando


[ Parent ]



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by jimovonz on Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 02:13:07 PM MST

I get the valves from a local valve specialist company. I forget the proper name for them. I originally used the stndard type brass spring check valve, removing the spring and using them in reverse. The valve on the pump I refer to was showing significant wear where the moving parts contact. The replacement valve is heavy duty in comparison having a body made from bronze with stainless steel inserts. It required no modification for use as a clack valve. The new valve operates somewhat differently and does not have a spring. One significant advantage I have found with the new valves is that although the moving piece is stainless, it is a grade that retains a degree of magnetism. By placing a magnet on the outside of the housing and using shims to set the spacing, I can retard the closing movement and thereby regulate the pulsing of the valve. This has allowed me to optimise the system and also to use different shims to suit the varying flow from the source. I will stop into the company I got the valve form and ask its proper name and world wide availablility. I will also get some photos if I get time.

[ Parent ]


Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by jimovonz on Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 08:22:06 PM MST

Nando I have posted a diary entry here containing information about this valve.

[ Parent ]


Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#27)
by Nando on Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 10:08:36 PM MST

Jimovonz:

I really appreciate the information, as well as, the people I assist in many countries will appreciate your help.
The ram pumps is one low cost item that needs attention in the undeveloped rural areas of many countries.

Nando

[ Parent ]



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#28)
by jimovonz on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 12:17:14 AM MST

Happy to help Nando. Please let me know if you do end up using one. This was the 1st one I ever placed in a permanent installation (I made a small one previous that ran down the bank off the garden hose!). I totally agree that the ram pump is under-utilised. I was astounded at how simple and cheap it was to construct and also at how effective it is. The latest ones I've made use a simple section of rubber pipe in place of the expansion tank which seems to work just as well and would be much more suited cost/availability wise to undeveloped rural areas (the high pressure PVC fittings were the most expensive part of this pump). I'm not sure on the long term reliability of the rubber pipe especially as it jumps around a bit as it expands and contracts. The price is right so as long as spares are on hand and someone is there to replace it it shouldn't be an issue.

[ Parent ]


Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#30)
by thefinis on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 06:22:53 AM MST

Is there any experience with the spiral pumps? They look neat for river use but I have never seen one working.

http://lurkertech.com/chris/eco/

Thanks
Finis
Texas born and bred
[ Parent ]



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by mkseps on Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 05:41:50 PM MST

I suggest that you do a google search for "IRON WATER CONTROL"
The first item you come across gives you a good idea about what you are up against and the possible cures.  You may be having other issues to be addressed in the control of the water.  Injecting air through the water is a good idea.  There are windmills that pump air for pond water control that could be brought into play here.  As for the septic tank idea, I would suggest that you use the large plastic tanks normally marketed at well stocked farm store.
Gene



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by stephent on Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 06:16:51 PM MST

Well, 50 foot of head will pump "some" water up that 75 foot to your house.
A ram pump is very capable of lifting "some" water up 75 foot.
Some depends on pump/pipe size (in and out) design and flow of water available.
And once it's running and tuned a bit, it's fairly foolproof and runs very cheaply.



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by Nando on Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 10:01:22 PM MST

There is a solution for your water to fill the tank in the house or even higher.

Can you measure the water volume ?.
You can use a RAM PUMP by the creek and fill the pipe and, as well, fill the tank above your house.

You do not need a tank if the stream runs continuously, if not then there are other tricks to make work and YOU DO NOT NEED ELECTRICITY and works day and night.

I have RAM PUMP designs that you could build yourself

To make sure what you want to do, including the hydro, please do detail all the aspects of both systems.

You can connect directly with me, correct my anti spam setting in my email address.

Nando



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by tecker on Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 10:02:38 PM MST

I also have been wanting to use creek water .But for a garden and growing Genseng stand . It smells so even though I 'm gardening with it I 'm tring to set up a pool filter sort of thing to treat the water . I'm bringing it up 300 feet from the creek bottom with air so after I jet it into a drum  let it sit for a time and filter through a sand  drum and a checkit .



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by scesnick on Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 05:54:42 AM MST

I have tried the fleck control filtering system already. i have also tried the brine and salt. Then i tried the latest and greatest thing called Pyrolox. I also have a 10" inline replaceable filter and a chemical pump that pumps chlorine into the water to raise the P/h so the filters work better. This all works in conjunction with each other, well atleast it is supposed to. What i am getting at here is that I have tried just about evey filtering process there is and the ALL eventually fail.
I could drill a new well for about $6,000 but that would not guarantee me good water from the new well. The only way I see where I can have Guaranteed clean water would be by using the creek.

Thnaks for all the suggestions. Keep them coming !!!!



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by wdyasq on Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 09:21:51 AM MST

Roof catchment system .... It works in areas with no ground water and low rainfall. Rain water is as iron free as it gets. You did not ask for this method but it is one solution to the problem of 'bad ground water'.

I always enjoy the folks who say 'think outside the box'. Many are the same ones who never have looked inside the box to see what tools are there.

Ron
Adventure is just bad planning." -- Roald Amundsen
[ Parent ]



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#41)
by oztules on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 08:33:12 AM MST

Hi,

I faced a not dissimilar problem during the recent drought over here. We use roof collected rainwater but no rain for 6 months all but ran us out.

Our forest dam had clear water around ph6.5. I pumped it into the 5000 gallon tank while adding pool chlorine (8 grams of granular pool chlorine (calcium hypochlorite - 65% available chlorine) per 1000 litres.

 Enough chlorine should be added to provide a free chlorine residual of around 0.5 milligrams per litre (mg/L) after 30 minutes. As a general guide, an initial dose of 5 mg/L of chlorine will provide this residual. You can test the residual in your water tank with a swimming pool test kit or dip strips, which are available from pool shops.

After chlorinating, you should ideally wait at least 24 hours before using the water to allow for harmful microorganisms to be destroyed. The chlorine may leave a harmless taste and odour in the water, which should disappear in around 10 to 14 days. Boiling the water will remove most of this taste and odour.

If you expose the tank (top of tank off) to sunshine, the odour and taste will dissapate in a matter of a day or so. this is the route I took.

The water will be fit for human consumption, free of all bacteria, and clear.

If you wish to use your filters after that then away you go, else use it directly.

Most of the above info I lifted from this web site when i set mine up.
http://www.health.vic.gov.au/environment/downloads/your_private_drinking_water_supply.pdf.

So I did this until the rains came, and now back onto tank water from the roof. But the chlorinated, flocked dam water was crystal clear and safe as a house. 22000lts (500gal approx)lasted us about 80 days or so, then you do it again... etc.

it's dirt cheap, and provided no heavy metals or other nasty inorganic toxins are in the creek it will work. I would however get the local council authority to test the water for harmful agents first. If it's full of mercury or whatever, your back to square 1.

The first one i did, I used a pool pump and a zeolite sand filter, but the flocking agent actually does a better job.

I was going to try and use expensive filters, but this did brilliantly. You could see a pin on  the bottom of the tank 8 feet deep. And after "sunning the tank" there was no sign of chlorine taste.

On one occasion, I tipped in more chlorine than I should have on the theory "more is better". Dont do it, it just takes longer to get the taste out.

Hope this will help

.......oztules



[ Parent ]



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#42)
by oztules on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 08:35:08 AM MST

sorry "22000lts (500gal approx)lasted us" should be 5000gals approx

oops

........oztules



[ Parent ]



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#43)
by vawtman on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 09:16:22 AM MST

Hi Oz

 I was amazed last night during a moderate rain how much water one can get fmom 1000 sq ft of roof.

 If you expose unstabilized chlorine(bleach) to direct sunlight it will dissapate quickly.

 Then we have our buddy algae

 I wonder how an ozone system would work high upfront cost but maybe he could make his own.That will kill anything instantly and leave no residual.

 Just thoughts

[ Parent ]



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#44)
by oztules on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 04:53:35 PM MST

Yes Vawtman, I have only 180sqm of roof here at the moment, which means for every mm of rain, i get 180lites of water.

The other week we had 100mm of rain over 4 days, so 18000 litres in a single rain event.

It all adds up.

The chlorination technique is easy, fool proof, and incredibly cheap...... and the main thing is it's available to everyone.

This fool managed to over do it though, but the only penalty is waiting for an extra day with the tank lid off and the sunlight in.

.........oztules



[ Parent ]



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#45)
by vawtman on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 05:44:25 PM MST

Oz you just gave me crazy thought.

 One plan of mine is to use the turbine to heat water using a large tank has preheater.

 Maybe a diversion valve of some sort that when the tank is full the warm summer rains could go to another tank for other use or go away..Why heat 50 degree water when 80 is running off the roof.Not for winter use obviously.

 For me with kids and a wife that loves to do laundry and wash everything its not practicle now LOL

 Their almost gone though(kids)
 

[ Parent ]



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by thefinis on Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 11:13:30 AM MST

Not sure why you have tried so hard and long with the iron water if you have good water close by. I side with your wife some water is not fit for household use. If it was all you had then the settling and air bubbles would help.

I agree with Ron on the rain system. A rain water system should work which would require guttering of a large roof area, large holding tanks(5000+ gallons), some monitoring/sampling and a pressure system. How well this works and how much holding capacity depends on rain and household usage but it is the best water. This system tends to catch more water than most folks would expect and works well for household use not yard use. Summer time use usually requires some chlorination especially if tanks are in the sunshine. You already have the filter system and may have an ozonation unit.

If the creek is good water go with your plan and pipe it to a holding tank with a float. No need to bury the tank unless it is to get the water to flow or keep it from freezing. Buried tanks run the risk of contamination in heavy rains so if you bury it avoid runoff influx also your intake at the dam may get muddy water etc during rain events. A cheap swimming pool kit and a little practice and you can keep the water chlorinated at 0.3-0.5 mg/l or use one of the small swimming pool systems that chlorinates as water is pumped(pressure pump for house) and set it for the amount of chlorination wanted. With your filter system you may have an ozonation unit which should replace the chlorine. The folks I know that use the ozonation systems tend to chlorinate every month or two to keep the lines clean as the ozone system has no residual.

Last suggestion is drill a shallow well by the spring where the creek starts and put pump there and just pipe it to the house. IF the well driller is worth his salt then he should be able to tell where to drill to hit the spring. This may be the best plan but requires extra drilling and electric lines. Electric company should set meter for pump and if some of the water is for farm use it may be a tax write off.

Good luck
Finis
Texas born and bred



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by scesnick on Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 04:20:56 PM MST

thefinis,

Well, You are right i should not have waited so long but it is quite a digging event to run the trench all the way to the proposed area for the tank. Also, to be honest we never thought about it until recently. i just asumed the creek was of poor quality also but it is very clean.
A new well down by where the creek originates is out of the question. it is tough enough just to walk back there. Thanks for the ideas...

[ Parent ]



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#29)
by thefinis on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 06:06:17 AM MST

Ahh it makes more sense when you thought it was the only kind of water you could get.

They make a 2 inch plastic pipe in rolls that the oil field uses that can be laid on the ground unless freezing would plug it in the winter. It is expensive but might be cheaper than trenching if you can use it. I don't have that much experience with really cold weather so not sure if there would be enough flow for a 500 ft run to keep it open in winter. The ram pump hydro guys will know and may have suggestions on what size line.

Here is a link to a site with several different water powered water pumps.

http://lurkertech.com/chris/eco/

Good luck
Finis
Texas born and bred
[ Parent ]



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#31)
by scesnick on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 06:56:50 AM MST

thefinis,

The trenching is just a time consuming event. I own my own backhoe so not much expense there. Yeah I have to trench it for sure. it gets quite cold up here on the mountain but for some reason the creek never fully freezes, just a thin crust right on the top when it is really cold out.
Thanks for the link for the pumps. I will have to study the whole pump thing to find the right one for this application.

[ Parent ]



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by GaryGary on Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 09:52:10 PM MST

Hi,

I think your plan will work.

We used to live on Vashon Island.  The house water supply was a small creek that originated a couple hundred feet above the house as some springs coming out of a steep bank.  This was our water supply, and it also supplied water via a pipe line to several houses below us.

The water from the springs/creek was collected in a concrete tank, and the pipes to the houses came off of the tank.

The county did not like the idea of the water being picked up after it seeped out of the bank because of the potential for contamination, and eventually we drove well points into the bank and piped the output from these to the concrete tank.  It does not take very much flow at all to supply a house when the incoming flow to the tank runs 24/7.

We had no trouble with either system -- the water always tested clean.

Our house was about 20 vertical feet below the concrete tank, and we just used gravity feed to supply the house plumbing -- no pumps at all.  20 vertical feet only gives about 9 psi, but as long as you run full diameter pipes right to the point of use, thats plenty of pressure, and it eliminates any need for a pump or pressure tank.

Gary
Gary gary@BuildItSolar.com www.BuildItSolar.com



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#32)
by threearrows on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 05:21:04 PM MST

Hello scesnick,

It sounds that your blessed with water options! In Canberra, Australia we're not so lucky with average rainfall of 650mm down to 400mm in dry years. If the creek runs continously then I'd be tempted to use this a your main water source, keeping the ground water as a backup.

Many people in AUS oxygenate bore or dam water to dissipate ionic iron for use on gardens and non-drinking applications with good affect. Everyone in my area collects rainwater from house and shed roofs, storing water in large plastic or concrete tanks. For my house we have a 20,000 gallon concrete tank with a pressure pump supplying the house. Our roof collection is approximately 330 metres square. The size of the water tank is dependant on your annual rainfall, frequency of rainfall, collection area and water usage requirements.

The downside to rainwater collection is that you need to have gutters, piping to your water tank and a pressure pump. In addition, the gutters need to be cleaned of leaves, dust/dirt and who knows what else! A water divertor is a great idea where the first 70 litres of water is not put into the tank. The storage of rainwater in a sealed, light free tank needs no special treatment for use, however I'd still recommend using a fine filter as a safeguard.

Thanks for sharing water ideas!




Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#33)
by Lumberjack on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 07:17:30 PM MST

Well
first off the ground water is not considered drinkable.
Second. You dont want to filter all the water to drinkable standards.

Your first job will be to re plumb the house if you can. water for toilets, showers and other non potable applications should be supplied by a separate cold line. Sinks and any other drinkable outlets need to be fed by a second cold water line as well as you hot water heater. You set up the filtration as follows.

Cold water enters the house and runs to a bank of whole house filters placed in parrallel with each other. Iron will tend to clog the filters fast unless you use three or more but they will stop the majority of the iron. From here you tee off and feed the toilets and other non-drinkable fixtures. After the tee off you run to your purification filters and then on to the rest of the plumbing. This arrangement will save you a bundle in the long run by reducing the amounts purified and preventing the worst of it from ever reaching the expensive filters.

If you cant split the plumbing you should still pre filter everything as whole house filters are a lot cheaper. Protect that 4000.00 filter with a little cheap insurance.

Hope this helps. The last time I had to deal with this I could not fill a bath tub before the iron turned the water brown. After installing the whole-house filters we hard knew tthere was iron present.




Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#34)
by scesnick on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 06:13:39 AM MST

Lumberjack,

Yep, the iron is terrible ( out of my well) that is why I am going to use the clean stream water. It is iron free.  I am giving up on the well. It will still be functional and i will still be able to use the well if for some reason the stream dries up.

[ Parent ]



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#36)
by snowcrow on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 09:22:32 PM MST

I have the same problem with iron in the water so I decided to use a rain water from the roof with a closed gutter system. By closed I mean screened to keep out birds, bug, and debris. I store the water in two 250gal food safe plastic containers, which had vinegar shipped in them, and only $40 each!! I think that these plastic containers may serve you better for storage than the septic tank will. Septic tanks are made strictly for waste water and may leash toxic chemicals into your water!!! I bought my containers from a foods trucking warehouse. They are about 4ft square and are in stackable metal tube frames, very handy!!!







Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#37)
by Nando on Sun Jul 01, 2007 at 06:49:42 PM MST

REPLYING TO YOUR DISABLED MESSAGE

How much water are you using and what is the head of the stream to determine the type of ram pump you need to have (instead of an electric pump).

The best arrangement to capture water from the stream is to have an intake with a large screened area, in this case, holes around 1/8 inch or even less, laying down on the bed where the stream moves faster and always covering the screen for the water to take away the debris that may attach to the screen.

Make the screened area at least 50 to 100 times the pipe area, this way the water will enter the screen at low velocity which helps in not allowing the debris to hang on the screen if the water is covering it.

I have used Stainless steel Mesh, with 12 lines inch, this would clean the great majority of debris, then internally, use a woman nylon sock for ultra fine debris filtering, cheap and easy to replace at low cost.

This type of filtering, we have used for water pickups for rural homes and for small hydro electric systems with great results.

A better description of your stream with the head it may have, may assist to give you better indications for a Ram Pump to feed the water to a tank above the house and to have, this way, a pressurized water source to your home.

Place the purifying filtering system by the storage tank to avoid having the need to add a pump to have the necessary pressure.

WE normally make two sets, one working and one for cleaning and or replacement for cleaning the used one.

Nando




Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#38)
by Nando on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 01:52:21 PM MST

I HOPE THAT YOU HAVE MOVED BACK TO YOUR OLD message since the new has been DISABLED AGAIN for the second time, to MAKE you to go to the proper thread.

LEARN ABOUT RAM PUMPS to raise the water 100 feet, you need a head around 8 to 10 feet, sometimes less if you have a good Ram Pump.

If you are going to make a hydro (I connect to so many that I forget who is who, so I do not remember), then make it part of the hydro system.

I did one in where a pump was put in service via a small clutch and attached to the hydro using a small pump to reduce the electrical power since it was a very small battery system and every time the battery was full, the pump worked as a ballast filling the tank.

Nando

[ Parent ]



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#39)
by thefinis on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 05:23:03 PM MST

What a bunch of BS just over him starting a new thread. Thank goodness he didn't misspell anything. I think we should encourage energy conservation as well as home made energy and an efficient system saves energy.

If you are running wire to the pump go with as small a pump as possible for the run and lift for flow wanted. If you just want to run pipe go with a jet pump with a foot valve(?) which will take 2 pipes in the trench. 1/2-1/3 hp pump if using a submersible pump at the creek remember to take into account voltage drop so use recommended wire size for a well as deep as the pipe run. A jet pump will take a little more hp 1/2 to 1 hp due to the pipe losses but may run about as cheap due to less wire losses.

Use a good screen filter at the creek with lots of area or fill barrel with coarse gravel bury it in the creek and use a slotted pipe in the middle. What ever you use it must filter out anything that might hurt the pump. Your home filter system will take care of anything else.

Good luck and when Momma ain't happy nobody is happy either.

Finis
Texas born and bred



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#40)
by TomW on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 07:19:36 PM MST

thefinis;

What a bunch of BS just over him starting a new thread. Thank goodness he didn't misspell anything. I think we should encourage energy conservation as well as home made energy and an efficient system saves energy.

I disagree. It does not make sense to spread a discussion of one particular system / project across multiple posts. People waste time answering twice and get lost with updates across multiple threads. In fact, for extended term projects, a Diary is probably the best way to track it. Then new posts can be accessed by looking at that users Diaries.It is an energy saving technique that will streamline the information flow because folks need not follow multiple threads to keep current.

It is just how it is. It is not hard to do for the original poster and eases the effort required to help.

Note I did not kill the story just disabled comments in an effort to make the board more easily used by the majority of the users at the expense of one users bit of time.

I guess i can't please everyone so I just do what I feel is right. As usual, explaining will just bring on more wasted time and effort on complaints. But now you know "why".

I don't hear much about the commercial product pimping or Chinese spam none of you see because I kill it immediately, but you are welcome anyway.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

T


[ Parent ]



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#47)
by thefinis on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 07:34:29 AM MST

TomW

You do a great job most of the time and I would not want to even try and do it. I guess my biggest problem here is the fact that the software does not bring the threads with the newest posts to the top of the list. Especially for new folks this makes it hard for them to find after a few days. It would seem our original poster has given up looking because he did not know how to find replies to old posts.

No one suggested to this person about adding it to his hot list. The recent activity link is not even mentioned in the How to use this board FAQs.
The postings scroll by too fast. So when I check back in 3 days to see if anyone answered my question, I can't find the posting. Solution: click the "add to hotlist" link on the stories you are interested in following. Then they will appear in your personal Hotlist box with a tally of new comments and replies, and will be easy to find until you click "remove from Hotlist."

Hindsight is 20/20 and until wanting to make a good reply to your post I really had not dug into the posted suggestions on using this board. Not reading the directions for me seems to be common according to my wive.

Once more you do good work and keep a good clean board. I just felt that there was lots of hoopla made over the new post(s) and not enough answering his question.

Thanks for your time and effort on editing the board. Sorry if we tend to only say something when fussing.

Finis
Texas born and bred
[ Parent ]



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#46)
by scesnick on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 07:24:48 AM MST

Finis,

Thanks, that is the info I was looking for. I didn't realize I was stirring up such a fuss just from posting another question. My first question was basically asking about the whole system and how you guys would go about it. The second quesiton was a specific question about which pump to use and filering device to use.

Anyhoo, I'm assuming that I can just hook up a jet pump inside the barrel to my pressure tank swich and this will turn the pump on and off just like in my original well.

[ Parent ]



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#48)
by thefinis on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 06:09:53 AM MST

TomW does a great job on editing the board and he was more making a point to everyone to keep their subjects together rather than post a new thread just to keep it on top.

Yes your jet pump is just a pressure pump and will cut on and off with a pressure switch. A word of caution it must have water at all times and if the pressure tank runs dry it will have to be primed (no fun at all) and will need to be primed to begin with. I run a submersible in a weak well on a timer switch that pumps to a holding tank and then run a jet pump to pressure the house.

Any good well service company or business that sells pumps should have all the info that you are needing on how to set up the system and what size for your needs.

Good luck
Finis
Texas born and bred
[ Parent ]



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#49)
by No2scout on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 03:07:25 PM MST

Hello folks...
Am a newbie here...don't know if i am posting right but i am sure you will tell me..
I also have well water .. although it is soft the iron is 20 ppm...
If i had to get a x-ray they had to keep cranking up the power to get a picture
but women find me magnetic ...
I found a cheap way to solve the problem... Put three of these filters on the water
line from the well.. they have a very fine ceramic structure with silver that filters out
the iron from my water... will try to post link below
.
http://www.doulton.ca/imp100.html
.
So far they work like a charm and they are cleanable...see smaller units..
.
http://www.doulton.ca/csty20.html

Well what do you think? clean water clean whites without stains



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#50)
by spinningmagnets on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 03:43:13 PM MST

I don't have any experience with treating creek water that's high in iron, but...

I noticed when changing the fluid in my automatic transmission that there was a few large "button"-shaped magnets in the pan that had collected steel shavings.

I can imagine a filter shaped like a laptop computer on its edge. Make it from a non-magnetic material and fill it with sand to slow the flow, then cover the sides with strong magnets. I don't know if this cheap and easy idea would work, but...?

When I cleaned swimming pools I was amazed by how clear the water got from passing it through a powder called Di-atomacious-Earth (DE) that coated a cloth screen inside a plastic housing. Easy and cheap to clean-out when a pressure gauge indicated it was getting clogged. -Ron

"How many captains does it take to pilot an Exxon supertanker"?

"one and 2/5ths"

Also: "How many Paris Hiltons does it take to drive a car, etc...

[ Parent ]



Re: creek water for domestic use (3.00 / 0) (#51)
by feral air on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 10:11:23 AM MST

If it was my well that was high in iron I'd try magnets on a string first. I'd try to hang it close to the well wall, or as far from the pipe as possible. Too close to the pipe and the iron could "clot" inside, I imagine, and eventually you'd have chunks entering the system...no good. Once a month or so take 5 minutes to pull the rope up and remove the excess iron from the magnets and drop it back down.

Cost would be low and if it didn't work then you'd have spare magnets, if nothing else.



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