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Mount offset


By South Easter, Section Wind
Posted on Sun Jun 17, 2007 at 12:15:22 PM MST
Mechanical over-speed protection

Can anyone give some rules of thumb as to how far offset from centre the pivot point should be?

This is for a design which uses an angle mounted vane to use gravity to bring the blades into the wind, but to also angle the blades away from the wind in high wind speeds.  For the design see http://windpower.org.za

Mount offset | 7 comments (7 topical)

Re: Mount offset (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by DanB on Sun Jun 17, 2007 at 07:50:04 AM MST

I usually offset the alternator between 4 and 5% of the blade diameter (so if it's a 10' machine I would offset the alternator about 5".  Interesting page web site.  There are a few things about the design I would do differently.



Re: Mount offset (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by South Easter on Sun Jun 17, 2007 at 08:17:20 AM MST

Hi Dan thanks for comment.  I am currently using an offset of 25mm, which I had the feeling was too small for the 2m diameter blades.  Should be more like 10cm by your rule...

Any other comments about the design and what you would do differently would be very much appreciated!  One thing I am thinking about how to add at the moment is a mechanical cable operated brake...  Dave B's post is interesting, but I would like to try for something simpler...
South Easter -- http://windpower.org.za
[ Parent ]



Re: Mount offset (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by DanB on Sun Jun 17, 2007 at 09:22:25 AM MST

"Hi Dan thanks for comment.  I am currently using an offset of 25mm, which I had the feeling was too small for the 2m diameter blades.  Should be more like 10cm by your rule..."

Yes - it's not 'my rule' really - it's what I've gathered from Hugh Piggott's ideas.

"Any other comments about the design and what you would do differently would be very much appreciated!"

The angle of the tail pivot could be changed.  It doesn't look like there is any side - what you have should work to protect the machine, but the power curve will likely drop off a lot in high winds after it starts furling.  Some side angle would be good and allow for more output in higher winds.   I also think the tail pivot looks very 'light' - I fear the tail might fall off after time.

The alternator spins on pillow block bearings - that seems fine, but I would be sure to put a spacer in there and not rely on the set screws themselves (You've probably allready done that).  I once got my fingers smashed pretty good by doing things that wway without a spacer.

I would go to 3 blades - it'll balance better.  No big deal to put a weight on it.  Machines with a pipe over pipe fit on the tower, and a furling tail are really inclined to shake/rattle with 2 (or 4) blades in my experience.  I've never done 4 - but I've done two by themselves - and two with a wincharger airbrake (which is a lot like having 4 blades).  The airbrake setup works well on a machine with a fixed tail, but not so well on machines with furling tails.

  "One thing I am thinking about how to add at the moment is a mechanical cable operated brake...  Dave B's post is interesting, but I would like to try for something simpler..."

Yes - I alway rely on shorting the alternator - if the alternator is big enough I find that shorting even 1 phase will stop it even in the highest winds, but a brake is nice insurance - especially for larger machines.  I may also adopt some of DaveB's ideas for  larger machines - although I have trouble getting through my head a good way to bring the cable down so it's not getting twisted up with the cord.  For a small machine like you're doing I think you'd be fine to short the alternator.  

[ Parent ]



Re: Mount offset (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by South Easter on Sun Jun 17, 2007 at 11:58:58 AM MST

Thanks for taking the time to comment!

I am not sure what 'side' on the vane means... with the offset so small I thought it would only furl in really strong winds, and then not much, so didn't think it would waste power... maybe I need to do some web research on this issue.

The vane is on a heavy steel pipe, which slips over a 12mm steel bar.  It seems very sturdy.... but maybe I should tie it on so that it can't lift off.  I will probably do that.

The bearings have four 12mm ssteel bolts through them, and they are separated by 3 nuts and a few washers to get the right spacing.  I use the nuts to slowly bring the rotors together or apart, using an aluminuim spanner I made.  I'm not sure what you mean by 'set screws', but it seems to be a safe method to me.  I am very aware of the finger crushing potential of the rotors!

Using 3 blades is the plan - I use four for now because I made them in sets of 2, and they are different weights, so four is just easy to balance for now.

Shorting the alternator does indeed stop it dead, but I live in fear of a wire breaking, and then would be left with no way to stop it tearing itself to pieces.  I plan to run the brake cable down the inside of the pole (next to the wires, which also run down the inside of the pole.

Thanks again,
--
South Easter -- http://windpower.org.za
[ Parent ]



Re: Mount offset (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Flux on Sun Jun 17, 2007 at 01:01:51 PM MST

You might as well not use an offset as use 25mm. I promise you it will never furl.

The actual minimum value seems to depend on many factors but typically the 4% figure seems to be the minimum, there seems to be some evidence that some folks have even run into trouble at 4%.  3.5 inches is the minimum safe offset for 2M.

I can't comment on any of the other features, I couldn't make much sense of the link you posted, I couldn't build anything from something so vague unless I didn't find all the information. The whole thing didn't look very inspiring to me.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Mount offset (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by South Easter on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 01:16:47 AM MST

Thanks again Dan, for your positive attitude!
--
South Easter -- http://windpower.org.za
[ Parent ]


Re: Mount offset (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by DanB on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 07:48:05 AM MST

In that picture you can see how the tail pivot is both angled to the back, and to the side.  On yours, it appears like you only have angle to the back.

Different people have different 'intuitive ideas' about what is strong enough and what isn't...  I dont think 12mm steel is nearly strong enough to support the tail even for a small machine - it would be very easy to add some safety factor there.  

I understand your concern about relying on electrical braking alone - perhaps I'm too optimistic.  I figure  - two wires have to break in order for me not to stop it and on mine, if 1 wire breaks I know about it  - because it speeds up and gets very noisy running single phase and then I can stop it with the remaining phase.  But yes... a mechanical parking brake can't hurt.

Bergey relies on a cable that folds the tail up to 'stop' the machine - I've seen a large 23' bergey grid tie machine, with a broken inverter (so it was free spinning) not shut down and continue to track the wind even with the tail folded up completely - and that machine would not shut down when shorted.  Fortunately it's a tough machine and it  survived free spinning like that in high winds for days before it slowed down enough to be shut down with the brake switch...

[ Parent ]



Mount offset | 7 comments (7 topical)
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