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Lister Petter diesel gen help/advice please


By Hilltopgrange, Section Controls
Posted on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 02:03:20 PM MST
It has finally arrived !!

Hi all,
         I posted last week about a 110v 3.5 kva Lister Petter diesel generator (ex Army) I purchased from eBay, it has finally arrived! And I must say I am delighted with it. The hour meter has 83 hrs on it and it started on the first swing. This was an absolute bargain at £150 ($300 USD) plus shipping



 I will post a more detail story soon but for now I need a little bit of help with the wiring please! The output is 110v or there about, I wish to charge a 48v battery bank with this, I was going to use a transformer but after doing a couple of tests I might have a better option. The pic below shows the connections from the alternator as setup for 110v ie 2 x 53v can I just put these 2 53v outputs to 2 bridge rectifiers and parallel the dc output 53 x 1.4= 74.2dc ? is it that simple?




 And finally for now if I link the green and red terminals the same as the white and yellow would I then get 220v? my thinking is that with a couple of switches I could choose 110v or 220v! could be very handy. I thought it better to ask the experts first rather than make the magic smoke!

Thanks in advance for any help or advice.

Russell

Lister Petter diesel gen help/advice please | 9 comments (9 topical)

Re: Lister Petter diesel gen help/advice please (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Flux on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 08:31:37 AM MST

Without detailed drawings of that alternator I would be reluctant to give advice.

It is set up at present for 110 centre tap and you could use 2 diodes to make a biphase rectifier with the negative coming from the centre tap and the positive from the common diode cathodes.

Whether you can split the windings and use 2 bridges depends on how the excitation is supplied and how the sensing voltage is measured. It may not be possible. I have even less idea whether it is possible to connect it for 220v just by looking at a few leads.

Flux



Re: Lister Petter diesel gen help/advice please (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Nando on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 09:21:33 AM MST

RUSSELL:

You are not giving enough information to make sure that what you suggest is possible.

Define the connections, isolation and voltages.

Some testing may be needed to see if the paralleling is possible, also the 110/ 220 volt re-wiring.
What is the frequency of this generator ?. Some are 400 HZ, so check it

Nando




Re: Lister Petter diesel gen help/advice please (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Hilltopgrange on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 12:37:14 PM MST

Thanks guys for the reply, I dont have anymore info on this but I will do a bit of research and see what I can find out, the units where in use by the British Army so there should be some info somewhere!. If all else fails I will try the "suck it and see method" and see what happens! Thanks again
Russell

[ Parent ]


Re: Lister Petter diesel gen help/advice please (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by Flux on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 12:51:38 PM MST

Having had a closer look at that picture I am almost convinced that it is a capacitor excited brushless machine with diodes on the rotor ( Nonaka ).

If I am right then you should be able to separate the 55v windings. There will be no connection from them to the exciting circuits that feed the capacitors. Don't mess with the capacitor windings or try to take load from them or interconnect them with the power winding. I see no way to connect it for 220v.

It will be highly sensitive to speed and for battery charging you may be able to control the output by adjusting the governor speeder spring. It will loose excitation below a critical speed so you may still need some resistive ballast.

If you find it has brushes then ignore these comments.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Lister Petter diesel gen help/advice please (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Nando on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 02:28:30 PM MST

FLUX:

Can you define Nonaka?.

I would like to find information on the capacitor and diode generator biasing as well.

Thanks

Nando


[ Parent ]



Re: Lister Petter diesel gen help/advice please (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Flux on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 03:47:23 PM MST

Nando

As far as I can find out, the capacitor excited brushless alternator was invented by
Sakutaro Nonaka.

I assume you are familiar with the construction but it is basically a 2 phase stator as in an induction motor, one winding is the power circuit and the other has a capacitor connected across it. The rotor is a salient pole wound construction with a diode connected across the winding.

Excitation builds up as in a self excited induction generator.

You can regard a single phase induction motor as having two fields rotating in opposite directions, there is no starting torque but if you spin the rotor in either direction, one field will accelerate the rotor and the rotor will run at slip speed. The other component then becomes a pulsating component at twice supply frequency.

Now in the case of this alternator when you drive the rotor at synchronous speed, one component rotates at the same speed as the rotor and is ineffective. The other component rotates backwards to the rotor and the field cuts the field winding at twice line frequency. The emf from this component of the field is rectified by the diode and produces a dc current in the rotor.

Unlike an induction generator, these machines are a true synchronous generator and run without slip.

Voltage stability is mainly provided by saturation of the iron circuit in the winding connected to the exciting capacitor. The value of exciting capacitor and the speed are critical. Departure from nominal speed badly affects the voltage and performance is not good unless the device driving it has stable speed characteristics.

The things are cheap and reliable and good enough for most purposes but they are not as well regulated as an alternator with an avr and generally the performance is affected by load power factor, making them a poor choice for driving welders or starting large motors.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Lister Petter diesel gen help/advice please (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Hilltopgrange on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 05:00:15 PM MST

Hi guys
        I have added a pic of the id plate I doubt that it is any help though. From what I can figure out there seems to be 2 sets of windings ie 4 wires connected in series for 110v. I`m not really worried about getting 220v as I only want to use it as a standby charger. There are 2 capacitors that I presume are for exciting it and there is also a resistor between the series connection link and earth/chassis. The voltage is a little bit low instead of 110v it is 106v and 53v on the individual windings but I think it just needs the rpm tweaked up a little bit. I plan to give it a full service tomorrow so I will wait until I have change the fuel and air filter before I start tweaking at the gov.

Thanks again guys
Russell

[ Parent ]



Re: Lister Petter diesel gen help/advice please (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by Hilltopgrange on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 05:01:44 PM MST

I forgot the pic lol!



[ Parent ]


Re: Lister Petter diesel gen help/advice please (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Flux on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:51:55 AM MST

No the plate doesn't help but I am now absolutely convinced that it is a self excited brushless.

You are right that the 110v winding is split into 2 sections and the centre tap will be earthed ( via a resistor in this case)

You can separate the centre tap and use your 2 bridges, just ignore the resistor.

The exciting windings may be separate, each with a capacitor or they may be series connected to use a lower capacitor value. ( don't mess with the exciting windings)

Yes the low voltage will be caused by low engine speed but for battery charging you can set the speed as low as possible to reduce engine wear and reduce the resistive ballast required in series with the rectifiers. You will probably only be able to drop the speed by about 10% before you loose excitation.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Lister Petter diesel gen help/advice please | 9 comments (9 topical)
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