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HIGH RPM AXIAL 240 VOLTS GEN


By Nando, Section Mechanical
Posted on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 02:30:01 AM MST
LOOKING FOR IDEAS FOR A HYDRO GENERATOR

GENTLEMEN:

To those that have built axial generators.

I am looking for ideas how to implement a 1 and a 2 KW ( 1500/or and 3000 ) RPM axial generator producing 240 volts, 60 Hertz is OK.

What magnets size and type do you recommend, single or dual rotor,

Or do you recommend to take an induction motor and install magnets on the rotor ?.

I am asking this because it a bit difficult to find this types of generators at a price that can be afforded by the buyer of the hydro systems in Center and South America.

Any help will be highly appreciated

Nando

HIGH RPM AXIAL 240 VOLTS GEN | 11 comments (11 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: HIGH RPM AXIAL 240 VOLTS GEN (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by TomW on Mon Jun 18th, 2007 at 09:00:08 PM MST
(User Info)

Nando;

Not much of a builder myself, but, I think in a hydro [24/7] situation it would be hard to beat an induction motor conversion. A good one has 100% duty cycle bearings and is likely to have about the right windings for Mains level power if you get the right speed. Some even come from the factory built for wet conditions and most are pretty well sealed to start.

Just my thoughts.

Sir Zubbly could give you pointers on spotting good candidates as well as how to do it.

Cheers.

TomW

"Education consists mainly of what we have unlearned."--Mark Twain



Re: HIGH RPM AXIAL 240 VOLTS GEN (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Flux on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 05:07:31 AM MST
(User Info)

It is indeed possible to build high speed axials, but the method really is more suited to multipole low speed machines.

There was a commercial 2 pole alternator (McCulloch, homelite?)machine. You would need large magnets and the windings will have a lot of copper. The main virtue of the air gap construction is the elimination of iron loss. With hydro this is of little consequence.

The motor conversion has many benefits for hydro, including being effectively waterproof. The main thing to consider is holding the magnets in place and at 3000 plus rpm that is not a small issue. I think you will need to consider a stainless banding over the magnets and not just rely on glue.

The outer magnet drum construction has advantages but you will never find suitable cores at a sensible price. The standard induction motor core and winding seems the best starting point. If you want more than a few, these things are now so cheap from China as complete pm alternators that it may be worth looking for a source. They are probably cheaper than the basic motor before you convert it.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: HIGH RPM AXIAL 240 VOLTS GEN (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by dinges on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 05:36:39 AM MST
(User Info)

Personally I'm a little biased and have little good things to say about axial fluxes (especially their mechanical properties).

A motor conversion would look like the ticket to me. Here's a story of a 3 hp I have converted; in star, it needs 6 RPM/v, so that translates to 250 Vac at 1500 RPM (we have 50 Hz over here).

Here's the story:

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/12/17/22270/167

And here are more pics of the conversion and some technical details:

http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/3HP-induction-conversion

Feel free to use any drawings, specs etc. freely. Nothing is under contract, -everything- is out in the public domain and fully and freely available to each and everyone...

Personally I would fully rely on -properly- glued in magnets. Even without using glue, they shouldn't fly off the rotor at 3000 RPM (calculated it once, for a rotor moving in free air (i.e. not turning inside a stator). A bit of proper glue (epoxy) should provide more than enough to keep them in their place on the rotor.

If you need more information, don't contact me privately but ask in here.

Regards,




Re: HIGH RPM AXIAL 240 VOLTS GEN (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by jim622 (jimcarlson622atYahoo.com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 09:10:24 AM MST
(User Info)

You can build a generator out of an induction motor without having to put in magnets and it will make the voltage and cycles that you want.

www.smallhydropower.com/induction.htm

There are a lot of places on the web that talks about it. I will find you some links if you need me to.
Jim622



Re: HIGH RPM AXIAL 240 VOLTS GEN (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 05:26:01 PM MST
(User Info)

Downside is that you'll spend maybe 5% of your generated power creating and maintaining the magnetic field of the rotor.  It shows up as the "slippage" which creates current (and resistive loss) in the squirrel cage, and the extra I-squared-R losses in the stator coils from the reactive current, representing energy that bounces between the excitation capacitors and the stator coils at less than 100% efficiency.

It also puts limits on how you can load the genny and on the reliability of your hydro source.  (Letting the rotor stop under load due to a water shortage may mean you need to manually intervene by "flashing" the genny to get it generating again once the water is restored.)

With permanent magnets you spend a hundred bux or so up front for someone to pulse the magnetic material to create the rotor's field and the material maintains it for no ongoing energy cost.

If you have that 5% power to spare and a reliable water source that will keep the rotor spinning at the desired speed 24/7/365, going the no-magnet route means you don't need to buy magnets and modify the motor.  B-)  (But you probably do need to buy capacitors.  B-(  )

[ Parent ]



Re: HIGH RPM AXIAL 240 VOLTS GEN (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Nando (nando37-at-tx-dot-rr-dot-com Correct theanti-spam) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 09:40:42 PM MST
(User Info)

Thanks to all that have post a comment.

I am quite well aware of the Induction Motor as a generator since I have used them
for many decades.

I am interested in knowing those that have converted a regular induction motor rotor to a magnet rotor, specially those that have used magnets with holes to mount them to the rotor and magnets that are curved for such arrangement.

If I remember right some were reported some time back.

The reason for a brushless permanent magnet generator is multiple.

a) As an independent generator.
b) As a master generator to attach an induction motor ( as induction generator) to it to have a much greater power generator, where the PM generator represents around 10 % of the total power that can be generated.

Plus other cases.

Nando



Re: HIGH RPM AXIAL 240 VOLTS GEN (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Countryboy on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 09:42:35 PM MST
(User Info)

Would it be easier to overspeed an induction motor to generate the required voltage and frequency?



Re: HIGH RPM AXIAL 240 VOLTS GEN (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by zubbly on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 02:57:11 PM MST
(User Info) www.zubbly.com

hi Nando,

i can tell you of the 2 7.5hp induction generators i have done.

the first one was made from a 7.5hp 3 phase 4 pole motor, high eff, manufactured by HICO. HICO did much of the building for westinghouse in korea, and finally took over the production of the units under the HICO name (basically a westinghouse motor-all parts interchangable). i rewound the stator to 12 pole, turned down the rotor and installed 4 round 1 inch diam x 1/2 inch thick N35 mags per pole (48 total) and skewed.
the unit produced 4700 watt at 600 rpm 60HZ connected to a set of heating elements. voltage at 600 rpm unloaded was 242 volt 3 phase. under the 4700 watt load the voltage dropped to 190 volt. the load was held for 20 minutes with no heating of the gen at all. the testing was stopped after 20 minutes as the 5hp baldor DC motor that was belt driving it started tripping the overloads. the unit was sold, but has not been flown as a gen to my knowledge.

the second one is the unit i am presently flying. i used it to help suplement heating in my home this winter connected to a 3 phase heating bank installed in my oil fired furnace. i have since found i can capture more power from it connected to a 60 volt battery bank and dumping to the elements once the batts are charged.  was just too much power wasted waiting for the gen to hit 100 volt (when the contactor pulled in to the elements) on less windy days. the unit was made from a Baldor 7.5hp single phase motor. i rewound the stator to 12 pole, installed a solid steel rotor with machined flats, and installed 2 of the 2x1x 1/2 inch mags with the tapered holes per pole (24 mags total). i think the mags were N40 or N42. unloaded voltage at 600 rpm 60 HZ is 240 volt 3 phase. i have seen a little over 4kw at approx 450 rpm with this unit. the prop is 12 foot diam 3 blade. the blades however are a 2 blade profile.

here is the link on the construction of the rotor. http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/6/16/202945/707

if you look at my postings, you will find the postings on the winding of the stator and the other postings of getting the unit flying.

just a tip when looking for a donor stator.  many (but not all) of the newer high eff motors in the T-frame class, have much larger stator slots in comparison to the older T-frame design. older design had approx 350 cir mill of copper per ampere and many of the newer units now have 800 plus cir mill of copper per ampere.  the larger slots allow you to pack much more copper into the winding.

just a personal note Nando, i don't think you have to go as high as 1500 or 3000 rpm to get some good kw rating.  i suggest using larger motors and keep the rpm down with as many poles as possible from the winding.  i still intend to convert my 25hp Baldor. it will be 16 pole and have a total of 48 of the 2x1x 1/2 mags. i expect an easy 5 or 6 kw at low rpm.

hope this helps answer some of your questions,
zubbly



Re: HIGH RPM AXIAL 240 VOLTS GEN (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by spinningmagnets (velmis1450bc(at)aol(dot)com) on Fri Jul 13th, 2007 at 10:47:24 PM MST
(User Info)

Dear Nando, I hope I am not hijacking your thread, but...

I have worked on several demolition jobs where I have seen large 220 VAC electric motors  THROWN AWAY!! I had no place to put them, and no idea what I could do with them (years ago).

Zubbly, you say its easy to get lots of KW from low RPM with a large motor conversion?
I had an idea to put the motor/gen on the ground with the shaft facing up. I believe its possible to make a 90-degree turbine gear head out of a cars differential (rear end gear to the wheels) The most common ratio is around 3:1, so if you can get 240 VAC at 600 RPM, then the prop could be smaller diameter, but spinning ~1800 RPM.

Diffs can be had for $50 and the bearings are made to easily handle over 3,000 RPM input/1,000 RPM out, and this would put a large heavy gen at the bottom of the tower.

Lady Chamberlain: "Mr Churchill, you are drunk"!
Winston: "Yes, but tomorrow I will be sober, and you, my dear, shall still be quite ugly indeed".
Lady Chamberlain: "If you were my husband, I would poison your tea"!
Winston: "If you were my wife, I would drink it".

[ Parent ]



Re: HIGH RPM AXIAL 240 VOLTS GEN (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by RP (russp located-at fidnet (dot) com) on Fri Jul 13th, 2007 at 10:53:25 PM MST
(User Info)

Even better would be 600rpm at the blades and 1800rpm at the generator.

One problem to be address in a 90° gearbox is that the reaction torque of the shaft at the generator will tend to turn the blades out of the wind.

[ Parent ]



Re: HIGH RPM AXIAL 240 VOLTS GEN (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by spinningmagnets (velmis1450bc(at)aol(dot)com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 01:01:41 PM MST
(User Info)

I am several years away from buying a retirement property, so I haven't even built my first wind-gen yet...That being said, I am extremely grateful for every comment, and I am "doing my homework" now. Depending on what I can find easily/cheaply available, It may be better for me to build two of the dual-rotor brake-disc PMA's instead of one large motor conversion. I am very interested in collecting information on all the viable options, so, like many others, I can make the best choice for the situation I end up in.

After some review of other posts, I must agree with you. ~600 RPM for the prop is the best goal. I only ponder the possible use of a car diff as they are cheap, robust, and can be found in ratio's from 2.20:1 to 4.11:1, and it would allow for the heavy gen to be at the bottom. (600 RPM/prop...1300-2400 RPM at the gen)

I hadn't thought of the torque effect. I'm guessing it wouldn't be too hard to fix. It's my understanding that submarines and single-engined planes have a fixed part of their control surfaces that is slightly "askew" to balance the twisting effect at their most common cruise speed.

The real question is, of course, is it worth the extra trouble? I think many enthusiasts would be pleasantly suprised at how cheaply large motors can be salvaged for, if you are patient. The output in this conversion is very impressive, and requires serious consideration as an option. I have much to learn...-Ron

Lady Douglas: "Mr president, your general Grant is a drunk"!
Lincoln: "Please find out out what brand of whiskey he drinks, so I can give some to my other generals"

[ Parent ]



HIGH RPM AXIAL 240 VOLTS GEN | 11 comments (11 topical, 0 editorial)
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