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Easy Auto Alternator Conversion


By WXYZCIENCE, Section Mechanical
Posted on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 07:13:57 PM MST
Microwave Oven Magnets

I have been removing these magnets from the old microwave ovens.





They are ceramic and very strong, with the alignment through the thickness. Speaker magnets are similar. This next picture is of a disassembled automotive alternator rotor with the coil removed.





I have machined the center in order to hold the magnets.





The center is accurate to the magnet. This allows the unit to retain the true center and be balanced well.





I used three similar magnets to fill the space between the end plates.

The last picture shows the assembled rotor




The rotor was placed back into the alternator. There is zero cogging in this unit. The first test at 1900 rpm produced 6.8 volts ac per phase at 2 amps. The total time to do this conversion was under three hours.

Joseph.
Easy Auto Alternator Conversion | 28 comments (28 topical)

Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by SparWeb on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 01:45:15 PM MST

Neat idea!

Perhaps if you tried the same mod with big ring Neo's instead of ferrite magnets, you could double the flux (or more).  That would yield a better V/RPM ratio.  Still fast, but on a small mill, might be closer to the ballpark.

Also a great illustration of how magnetic flux lines can be manipulated, with a little creativity.

Steven Fahey



Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by WXYZCIENCE on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 03:23:03 PM MST

Steven, even just small squares or rounds could be put in between the claws. Temperature may become an issue though.
Joseph

[ Parent ]


Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by oztules on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 06:56:59 PM MST

Joseph,

I think the shaft provides a much better flux path for the magnets than the air gap between the claws... effectively short circuiting the flux from claw to claw, rather than jumping the air-gap.

With the original electromagnet, the shaft "became" the magnet and the return path for the flux was across the air-gaps. The shaft in your configuration now becomes the return path instead.

Solving this problem (with a magnetically inert shaft)will increase the flux density between the claws air-gap making it  the only decent flux return path.... increasing its effectivness markedly..... new shaft looks the ticket.

good use of old alts and microwave oven Joe.

.........oztules



[ Parent ]



Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#27)
by Slingshot on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 08:56:17 AM MST

That's absolutely correct.  Just making a new shaft out of stainless, or maybe even aluminum, would probably account for a tremendous increase in output.  

[ Parent ]


Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by snowcrow on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 01:46:22 PM MST

Do you mean, "6.8 volts ac at 2 amps between phases"? If you haven't rewind the stator yet, then thats not too bad. What do you get for a DC output?







Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by WXYZCIENCE on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 03:10:19 PM MST

snowcrow, only tested a single phase. I pulled the regulator and diode assembly out to get wild ac.
Joseph

[ Parent ]


Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by zubbly on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:54:36 PM MST

hi wxyzciense,

i was often going to try the same thing myself.  only use neo mags and replace the shaft with a stainless one.  the stock shaft in my belief, robs too much flux from the mags.  a stainless shaft, will allow all the flux to be concentrated on the claw rotor.

you went this far, maybe use the same unit with a new shaft and see what happens.

good luck,
zubbly



Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by WXYZCIENCE on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 03:17:34 PM MST

Zubbly, I will try a brass shaft and see if the output is increased. I also have some large speaker magnets to work with. Maybe build a claw 6" in diameter with more poles.
Joseph.

[ Parent ]


Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 04:30:31 PM MST

I like the ideal of a stainless shaft - or brass if it's strong enough.  But you might have corrosion issues near the join in an outdoor environment.

Other possibilities:

 - As long as you're machining the "flowers", machine out the center of (at least) one for a significant clearance (like larger than the gap between the "petals") and press in a brass insert.  Then you might be able to get away with the original shaft and still have most of your mag field unshorted by the shaft.  (You'd retain the splines in one "flower" and if the other tends to slip you can always cast it into place by filling the space between the fingers.)

 - Ditto but for brass substitute something non-metallic to avoid corrosion - like more casting material.  (Or just leave it open and count on the "petals" to center you on the magnets until it's cast.)

 - Iffy:  Machine down the shaft and press on a brass pipe.

Remember that the structure was open mainly to cool the coil.  With permanent magnets this is no longer an issue.


[ Parent ]



Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by fungus on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 03:48:49 PM MST

Looks pretty good, maybe a rewind would be good to get more voltage.
How did you get the claws off the shaft?


'Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.'-Albert Einstein
Fungus - www.reenergy.co.uk


Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by hiker on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 04:17:33 PM MST

nice job.....
check out- -auto alt--on google search the board..
those auto alts just never die  :}
heres one out of many--might give you some ideas........

              http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/5/11/04025/3914
WILD IN ALASKA
[ Parent ]



Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Warrior on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 05:09:51 PM MST

Joseph,

Nice work on the alt. Maybe you can try what Jerry does to get the voltage up:

Separate each phase; rectify each phase individually then series the DC outputs. Not the best use of a 3 phase alt, but at least it will make some power.

If my numbers are right you should get:

6.8 ac x 1.41 = 9.61 DC per phase x 3 =  28,83 volts DC @ 1900 rpm. At half the speed you have slightly more than 14 volts. Not bad for cheap ceramics.

As reference SWWP Air-X "Industrial" cuts in at 900 rpm ;)

Warrior
Warrior__ "Why can't Murphy's Law be used to my advantage??"
[ Parent ]



Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by willib on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 05:14:57 PM MST

Interesting Joseph..
i'm assuming that you stuck the mags together?
 if you flip the center one , that will push the flux outward radially ,may be a bit harder to assemble ,but  might work better for you ..

thats how i made my shaker gen anyway
Carpe Ventum (seize the wind)



Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by willib on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 08:56:25 AM MST

Thank you guys for not reaming me a new one...
after looking at the claws again , i realized that one claw has the north pole and the other has the south pole..
and my radial flux suggestion would probably produce less tha optimum output :) to say the least
Carpe Ventum (seize the wind)
[ Parent ]


Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by hvirtane on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 12:50:23 AM MST

Very good indeed.

This is an experiment I've been thinking about for a while, too.

I think that a new shaft arrangement is needed

If still after a new shaft is installed, there is not enough power, you might connect two alts together on the same shaft.

Looking for your next results.

- Hannu



Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by WXYZCIENCE on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 10:04:18 AM MST

Hannu, your idea is workable. the stators could be tandemed and the rotors put on a common shaft. This was brought up in the think tank.
Joseph

[ Parent ]


Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by wooferhound on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 01:29:09 AM MST

You replaced the coil with magnets
so where are the coil/coils now ?
W o o f -={(



Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by TomW on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 08:46:03 AM MST

Woof;

I think he means "field coils".

Just my first thought.

Cheers.

TomW

Ignarus can exsisto rememdium. Sardus est forever


[ Parent ]



Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by WXYZCIENCE on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 10:13:21 AM MST

wofferhound, I took apart several old import alternators. They are small enough to fit the magnets easily. The coils are in good shape, looks like 18-20 guage. I think that the coil draws about 40 watts in operation. I wonder what the webbers are across the gap. I am working on a neo unit today. I will post later today.
Joseph

[ Parent ]


Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by wooferhound on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 08:23:46 AM MST

I was trying to figure out where the coils are that are generating your power now. I don't see any coils in the pictures. Where is the power coming from ?
W o o f -={(

[ Parent ]


Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by RP on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 09:35:23 AM MST

He's only been showing pictures of the converted armature.  The power comes from the field coils (not shown).  It's kind of like an induction motor conversion but the shape of the armature allows this unique magnet layout.

[ Parent ]


Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by stephent on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 10:13:52 AM MST

as long as ya caught it willib... :-)




Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by willib on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 01:11:08 PM MST

Yeah , been thinking again, ( i know look out ),why they still use such an inefficient alternator in a car...
it would increase the overall milage if they would just improve the alternator
if they used neos ,in a dc motor type setup , they could still regulate the output i think ?

Carpe Ventum (seize the wind)
[ Parent ]


Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 05:38:27 PM MST

40 watts is 5 1/3 HUNDREDTHS of a horsepower.  When idling the engine can easily spare it.  At speed the excitation requirements drop drastically.  It's easier to control that 40 watts to regulate the output than it is to regulate the wild AC you'd get with permanent magnets.  Meanwhile, cost and weight are the big factors for automotive design.  (Saving a dime per car at a major auto company is enough to hire two engineers full-time to figure out how to do it.)

Alternators are actually very efficient - especially compared to the generators that preceeded them.  It's just that they're optimized for being bolted onto a hundred-plus horsepower internal combustion engine, where a horse or two here and there is in the noise - not for a windmill, where 40 watts would be precious when the wind is low.

[ Parent ]



Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by windstuffnow on Wed Jul 04, 2007 at 12:36:23 PM MST

  Nice Job Joeseph!  I had built one with ceramic magnets many years back but it seemed a bit weak for my needs at the time.  I tried stacking some block neo's between the finger plates and that brought the finger flux up to about the gauss of a strong ceramic magnet ( 1500 or so ).  

  I noticed hydrogen appliance was modifying the alternators by using a very large and extreemly strong neo ring magnet and a friend had purchased several of them for testing purposes.  Unfortunately their output was far less than they advertized.  

  I started making new rotors from aluminum and putting a steel backing to secure the magnets retaining the original shaft.  The magnets were simply the 1 x .5 x .125 mounted around the circumference of the new rotor.  This made a significant difference in output but still required 400-500 rpm for `12volt cut in and definately created a cogging issue.  I concluded if you could get some custom wedge magnets made up the cogging would be eliminated and the output could be increased considerably again by using a 1/4" thick N35 magnet.

  Also, you can grind the pins from the laminants and put several alternator cores together, use a longer shaft and still use the end housings for the bearings.  It looks a little odd but you can put a lot of wire in a 4 core alternator.  You can also use the smaller magnets in the longer core and stager the magnets to reduce the cogging.  You can use spacers on the original winding/core to separate the cores to use as is...

  Lots of cool options with them, thier a pretty simple and versitile little alternator.  I used to have a huge box of the old Delco's ( 35 amp ) but I went through them pretty fast playing around and ended up selling alot of the modified versions.  I haven't been to the junk yard lately so I don't know whtt they cost anymore.  

  You can also make a small PM alternator to feed the field coil of a stock alternator which works fairly well too, although they don't do real well in low winds.  As the wind increases so does the load.  

I had lots of fun with the old 10si's still have 4 or 5 laying around for future fun when I get time.  

Keep up the great work!  

.  
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed



Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by SoloDad on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 05:10:40 AM MST

I have spent some time looking at this type of alternator using FEMM and have concluded that segmenting the shaft and replacing the centre and rear of the shaft with a 316 stainless tube rather than the solid steel one, will allow a steel rod to be inserted much like a reactor control rod to limit the output of the alternator.

The centre (Fe) shaft is acting like a return path for the fux no doubt about that.
By removing the Fe Shaft in the section inside the magnet rings, you prevent this "short circuit".

So conversley if you insert a rod inside this SS tube then the output of the alternator drops around 3 times.

As a cheapy, I thought that a back to back Hallbach assemblies, replacing the outer two of the ring magnets could be made from inexpensive NdFeB slithers (.5x.5x1).
The inner ring can be replaced with Aluminium disk with a simple steel washer between the Al disk and each of the Hallbach replacement assemblies would give the same output as three solid rings of NdFeB. Hallbachs are One Pole magnets. Basically you take 4 magnets and do this "North Up,North Right ,North Down,North Left" you can put the field on the inner or outer of a drum by changing the rotation of the magnets Clock wise (inner) or Counter Clock wise (outer).
Fun to play with ! Same thing as fridge magnets only one side is magnetic.
The Hallbach is Root 2 (x 1.4142) factor stronger than the equivalent solid magnet.
Three magnets stacked are 1.27 x the single magnet strength stacked.
So by taking smaller magnets of the same strength you can actually end up with 1.8 x the field over 1.27 of the 3 solid magnets.
Crikey ! It's a significant figure !
The picture shows the intense hallbach on upper right versus the normal In Out
of a normal radial flux unit. Purple is hight Field Strength.
Anyway I have to take some videos back.
Garret




All in good time but for now .. a mirracle
[ Parent ]



Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by SoloDad on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 08:23:57 PM MST

Hmm I spent the time to model this Halbach Augmented Idea.
Well .. forget I mentioned it. Please !
It does not work.
Sorry. (in too much of a hurry to exit to the video shop)
Remember that all great ideas stimulate the grey matter ..
no matter if they work ! Keep on using it !

If you replace the rotor entirely with a CCW 90 deg rotation of the field magnets
about the outer surface of the drum with a thin layer of steel under them .. (see www.Windstuff.com) but rotate the magnets. You will pick up the Root 2 advantage ( note the magnetic flux is different as the wire goes through the field.
The normal up/down magnets give a rough sine wave +- 45 say. The Halbach goes zero across each second magnet. It shows +75 then zero for a magnet width then -75 then zero for a magnet width. Kind of a square wave with a zero 1/4 wave each 1/2 cycle.
Anyway .. it will give much lower start to charge rotation speed.(values are only indicative of the model I made with 94m OD Al Drum , 3 mm steel plate wrapped with 16 off 15x40x8 mm NdFeB Magnets around the outside. and are x10e4 Amp/Metre. but ... cogging .. wow it will be nasty.
So When I find a 3D FEMM modeling software I'll have another go with a compounded Halbach type stepped so that the cogging will drop.
Garret
All in good time but for now .. a mirracle
[ Parent ]



Re: Easy Auto Alternator Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#28)
by MR FIXIT on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 05:48:24 AM MST

I done the same thing , I used a delco 10 si alternator with a stainless shaft and a 24 volt winding( yes you can get 24 volt windings for delco alternators and I think 32 volt as well ).  you can also use a stock alternator with a D10AC regulator and a 24 volt winding.  We made a peddle bike with one of these and it worked great.  The D10AC reg. has a very low turn on speed. I am thinking about using this on savounis mill I am building.  

[ Parent ]


Easy Auto Alternator Conversion | 28 comments (28 topical)
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