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Drag from Laminate on a Single Disc Axial


By Spdlmt150, Section Mechanical
Posted on Sun Sep 16, 2007 at 01:48:32 AM MST
Laminate drag effect?

I have been working on designing a single disc axial. I think a single disc with a laminate would be more robust than having a front disc hanging out on threaded rod. One thing I am curious about (read as: hope someone has some experience with) is what effect the laminate would have on this design. The current plan is an 11 inch disc, 12 round mags 1-1/4 inch x 1/2 inch. 12 coils (hopefully 16ga since I have it in hand) three phase, 12v. I may be able to get a legitimate laminate made for this project.

My question would be how much drag will be created by the laminate? Will that drag increase with rotor speed? Would the combination of this along with the drag from the coils be enough to self-regulate the maximum speed of the mill - possibly cause blade stall before allowing a runaway condition?

My windspeed is very rarely over 15mph, although the rare storm front will move through & kick things up a bit. In 8 years I believe the highest windspeed here has been around 40mph. Would the drag on this design be enough to keep things safe without a mechanical furling system? I am hoping to end up with a 6-7 foot rotor. I'll be posting drawings/pics as soon as things start coming together. I'm still waiting on mill time to knock out the mag disc, and then it should come together fairly quickly.

Drag from Laminate on a Single Disc Axial | 7 comments (7 topical)

Re: Drag from Laminate on a Single Disc Axial (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by vawtman on Sun Sep 16, 2007 at 09:09:49 AM MST

I believe Ed built one of what your thinkin about.Not sure how it panned out and maybe he will chime in.

 Heres my thoughts
 I think the amount of drag (iron loss)created by the laminate is dependent on the material used,airgap and mag strenght and yes i would think it would increase with rpm.

 When i get all the mags on the wheel(radial) i plan on testing different gaps with just a steel band and keep a wide airgap to help with eddies also.I think.

 Its a work in progress and not the most efficient but overdone.



Re: Drag from Laminate on a Single Disc Axial (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Flux on Sun Sep 16, 2007 at 01:33:54 PM MST

Yes the drag is very dependent on the core material.For this type of construction there is no readily available source of high quality core material, unlike radials where motor cores are common.

I personally would not considering any substitute for a high quality electrical grade steel intended for cores. Yes it will work with mild steel but the drag will be high. Using worse things such as band saw blades and crate banding strip is a sure way to make a crap alternator. It may be ok in a high wind area but it will spoil the low wind performance.

Yes the loss will rise with frequency but don't expect it to act as any form of speed limiting in place of furling. If you choose a material bad enough to do that it will probably be glowing in a high wind with the stupid losses.

The laminated core has some merit if you can obtain really high quality core material at a sensible price, the biggest virtue that I can see is that you can easily manage a 2 layer winding and the fact that the windings are glued directly to a core gets rid of heat much better.

I really can't see why mechanical limitations are supposed to be a disadvantage of the dual rotor, I know most people use things spaced off with nuts and allthread, they get away with it so it must be adequate. It is not my idea if how to build things and I have never done it. Surely anyone who has the ability to make a decent high quality core can manage a sensible mechanical construction that puts the prop directly on a disc attached to a hub, you can overhang the back rotor on threaded rod if you want, there is no gyroscopic force there.

I have used the radial equivalent of a single rotor with laminated core and had good results so as long as you can solve the problem of finding a decent source of core material it should be fine, but to use low grade core material is far worse than risking overhanging a rotor disc if you can't get beyond the common construction.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Drag from Laminate on a Single Disc Axial (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by vawtman on Sun Sep 16, 2007 at 03:54:43 PM MST

Flux,

 Lets say one has the perfect lams such has a motor stator contains and then converts it with high powered neos that saturate the teeth at thin gaps.

 The Question i have is if the teeth  become saturated by the strength of the field do they serve a purpose any more other than losses and just a method of securing the coils?

 Been buggin me.

[ Parent ]



Re: Drag from Laminate on a Single Disc Axial (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Flux on Mon Sep 17, 2007 at 01:21:10 AM MST

Good Question. Not sure that I can answer it with any degree of certainty, this is my thoughts on it.

It is certain that for a given quantity of magnet you can get more out with teeth. It is also almost certainly going to be the fact that coils in slots will be better cooled than coils stuck onto a smooth core in an air gap. For a conventional machine running constantly at full load the slotted core seems to be universally accepted as the best compromise.

For wind power many factors change and the optimum requirements are different. Ignoring the issue of cogging ( which can be reduced to a level that doesn't affect the argument) iron loss is much more of a factor in a windmill alternator than an engine driven one. Conventional alternator design tells us that the best compromise is when the iron loss is equal to the copper loss, so conventional alternators are running with a high iron loss even though the best grade of iron is used consistent with cost.

For wind, high iron loss delays start up and restricts low wind performance so this means that you should work at flux densities in the iron well below that of a conventional alternator. In modern conventional alternators the flux is worked very high indeed and in most cases the teeth will be completely saturated. This keeps the total gap flux up as high as possible, keeping the turns down, reducing copper loss to a minimum and also keeping reactance effects and armature reaction low. This lets you get the highest possible output from the smallest machine.

With wind I suspect that the best compromise would be to not let the teeth get closer than mild saturation otherwise the core loss will start to eat into the low wind performance. For good start up I think that air gaps should be kept to 1mm or greater.

If with a reasonable gap you can push the total flux up even if the teeth are saturated then I am sure you will still increase output. If the teeth are short then the increase may still be quite a lot, if the teeth are long and the distance from the magnets to the unslotted core are greater than magnet length then I think the gain beyond saturation of the teeth will be small. Using punchings from low pole number motors gives you a very long tooth that is far from ideal for the many poles that are best suited to low speed PMA's.

Ultimately I think it depends on the type of slots, the number of poles, the possible effect of reactance and armature reaction and where you want to compromise the design.For maximum output and maximum efficiency in a gale then saturate the teeth. For a good all round machine with good start up and low wind performance then don't use small air gaps and don't saturate anything.

If you want the best possible results in low wind areas and are prepared to pay for longer magnets then I think the best design may not use teeth at all. Start up will then not be a limitation, iron loss will be the lowest possible and you will have no worry about armature reaction and you will not reach reactance limiting in the working range, it will behave like an air gap alternator.

I have to admit that slots do make the winding stronger, easier and better cooled and let you use cheaper magnets but I haven't built a machine with slots for 10 years and I suspect I shall never build another for the low wind areas around here.

Remember that when teeth are saturated you are looking at a slotless construction with an air gap equal roughly to the length of the teeth so ignoring iron loss you can think of the other factors having similar effect to an air gap machine, so long teeth equate to a very large air gap and low flux from short magnets.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Drag from Laminate on a Single Disc Axial (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by vawtman on Mon Sep 17, 2007 at 03:51:27 PM MST

Thanks alot Flux.

[ Parent ]


Re: Drag from Laminate on a Single Disc Axial (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by Spdlmt150 on Sun Sep 16, 2007 at 08:06:59 PM MST

Thanks Flux. I always appreciate your wisdom.

As for the laminate material, it will be custom formed from the same laminate material used in high voltage transformers. I happened across a contact through work, and they are interested enough in the project to give me a good deal on a custom made laminate.

I look at the number of postings of failures, and many are rub failures (be it from swelling of the windings, or misalignment of the front disc) and I think that for a lower output machine, the single disc & lams would be much more solid.

I am hoping to be milling the disc tomorrow, and will be posting pics shortly of the whole assembly. High amperage is not my goal. I want to build a mill that I don't have to look at again once it goes up on a pole.

As for things glowing, I'll start modelling the offcenter mount for a furling arrangement. I had figured that if the drag would suffice, it would be much easier (& fewer moving parts) to mount the axle centerline to the tower. As usual, the easy way is not the right way. I think a 4-5 inch offcenter mount will suffice on this mill, and tail weight should be manageable for a 5-7 foot rotor.

As for the laminates, I may be able to position myself to obtain custom sized laminates for axial designs at a reasonable price. I'll keep this info coming as I get it.

[ Parent ]



Re: Drag from Laminate on a Single Disc Axial (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by hiker on Tue Sep 18, 2007 at 12:18:48 AM MST

heres dans old wood axe...
might be a fun little gen to build...

  http://www.otherpower.com/woodax.html




WILD IN ALASKA
[ Parent ]



Drag from Laminate on a Single Disc Axial | 7 comments (7 topical)
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