Sept 0307
By DanB, Section Remote Living Posted on Tue Sep 4th, 2007 at 02:03:41 AM MST
lots of wind stuff going on but feeling somewhat distracted by steam today.

Lots of fun last couple weeks.  George made a few 10' machines and finished the metal work on Tims 17' wind turbine. George brought up this huge puff ball!  (over 12" diameter  - a big mushroom!)  It was good fried in butter with some salt/garlic ... Sometimes George gets frustrated when things don't go smoothly....  there was some kind of problem with the metal work last week. Dixie on the dump truck. Since my last posting about a week and a half ago much of the attention has been towards gathering bits - pipe - etc to get the steam engine project together.  The exhaust from the engine is directed up through the smoke stack to help draft the fire.  The boiler came setup for this but the draft was kind of small I thought (I could be wrong on this but I didn't see reducing the engine exhaust from 1.25" to 3./4" pipe) - so we cut out the old draft and made a new one from larger pipe. I want to build an alternator right on the shaft of the steam engine.  Seemed an easy way was to take a trailer hub, knock the bearings out and bore it out to fit the shaft.  I also drilled and tapped holes for 4 set screws. We got all the piping done Friday  - bolted it down and test fired it saturday.  I never ran up over 40 pounds of steam but it ran quite well and the whistle is incredibly loud (people can hear it a mile away).  This is very interesting/fun stuff. We've been running mostly on pine/lodgepole so far.  It was easy and didn't take much wood to run the engine without a load on it.  Pretty easy and not very labor intensive to run - although it always needs some eyes on it watching what's going on (so far I enjoy that).  It's very quiet - seemingly well behaved and not hard to keep on top of. Perfect timing.  I wouldn't have fired it up this weekend yet but our friend Ron came up to visit  - he's a certified something or other that allows him to run engines  - locomotives etc...  in England and he knows what he's doing.  So he was here to inspect the setup and help show me the ropes when we first fired it up.  Pictured above he's fiddling with the injector (the unit  that injects water into the boiler under pressure).  A bit of practice and we got the hang of making that work fairly well. Today we thought we'd put a load on it.  I put our latest wind turbine alternator on it (not a big one - it's for a 10' wind turbine) We ran it with this alternator on it today for about 5 hours running between 500 - 750 Watts output on pretty low grade wood.  It seems to work incredibly well.  500 Watts is about 180 rpm - I could've easily had more power off this wood (we had to cool down the fire several times to keep from getting ahead on steam) and a larger/more efficient alternator would also help.  We never exceeded 60 pounds of steam - we could've done it easily on 40 I think.  With a load on it the exhaust note is a bit louder and the smoke stack puffs a bit more. It's been quite a fun project so far and I'm quite surprised how easy it is to run and how quiet/well behaved everything seems.  What I initially thought was more of a 'toy' is likely going to be quite a practical backup generator I think.  More to come - next step is to build an alternator for it - and maybe find a woodshop that can provide me nice little chunks of hardwood! Who runs this board anyhow.. it's all about renewable energy yet there's no 'steam' catagory to post in...

Sept 0307 | 27 comments (27 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Sept 0307 (3.00 / 0) (#1) by stephent on Mon Sep 3rd, 2007 at 08:11:34 PM MST (User Info)

I tip my hat, Dan. The engine, boiler looks very well put together. Your work always looks good.

Re: Sept 0307 (3.00 / 0) (#2) by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Mon Sep 3rd, 2007 at 08:31:31 PM MST (User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

You can really blame George and Rich for most of the 'good work' that gets done up here.  George did almost all the piping between the boiler and the engine - he's good at that stuff, had I done it it'd likely be crooked and leak all over ;-) [ Parent ]

Re: Sept 0307 (3.00 / 0) (#3) by Volvo farmer on Mon Sep 3rd, 2007 at 08:34:27 PM MST (User Info)

You guys are having way too much fun up there. What a cool contraption! I reckon you're going have some interesting things to teach us all about steam before this project is all done. Thanks for the neat story! Volvo Farmer May you always have success in your quest to irritate those who you despise. -Ben Goode

Re: Sept 0307 (3.00 / 0) (#4) by tecker on Mon Sep 3rd, 2007 at 09:04:41 PM MST (User Info)

Very nice . Injecting steam into the flue and then sending it to a heat exchanger. A  cooling chamber for particulate etc etc . Very cool stuff indeed.

Re: Sept 0307 (3.00 / 0) (#5) by DamonHD (d@hd.org) on Tue Sep 4th, 2007 at 01:37:33 AM MST (User Info) http://www.earth.org.uk/

Very neat: another nice way to use RE! Rgds Damon

You must be having a blast (3.00 / 0) (#6) by Devo on Tue Sep 4th, 2007 at 05:56:55 AM MST (User Info)

Seems like all the things I dream about & put on the back burner you are doing , great work & fun. I love reading this stuff & heck ya a steam forum would rock, I'm going to have to start scavanging for steam stuff & my tower's only half done.. Keep up the great work fella's Have you any solid output numbers with your new 10 foot stronger magnet design in the wind? I have took down my 11 foot & am thinking about following that direction before mounting it on the tower. Devin

I'm jealous (3.00 / 0) (#7) by david anderson on Tue Sep 4th, 2007 at 11:38:35 AM MST (User Info) http://squtch.quiet-like-a-panther.org/

It's amazing how quiet steam engines can be. When most people think of steam engines they start hearing all the roaring and clanking of steam locomotives, but they aren't all like that. An old ferry, that I am fortunate enough to spend time on, has a triple expansion steam engine that recycles its steam. It silently speeds along like a ghost ship, at least until you hit that steam whistle. Even right near the engine, you only have to raise your voice a little to be heard. Not that you should tinker with a sound boiler, but this post has me wondering how efficient a gasifier stove would be for something like this.

Re: I'm jealous (3.00 / 0) (#10) by BigBreaker on Wed Sep 5th, 2007 at 07:59:36 AM MST (User Info)

I love gasifiers and was thinking the same thing. Running an internal combustion engine on a gasifier is tough- the wood gas needs to be cleaned and cooled. Running an external combustion engine (like a steam engine) on a gasifier is easy since the mechanics never interact with the gas directly.  Note that the temps can get so high in a gasifier that you really need to be careful. [ Parent ]

Re: I'm jealous (3.00 / 0) (#11) by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Wed Sep 5th, 2007 at 09:37:03 AM MST (User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

I can certainly see the attraction to burning wood gas in an internal combustion engine - it can be done and it can work well.  A neighbor up here made such a setup and could run his onan 10KW generator with it - it worked well once he got it sorted out. But in a steam engine I don't see the point, I find it hard to believe you'd get more power in the firebox that way than just burning the wood to begin with.  When its running the combustion is very clean/complete as is and its dirt simple just to shove wood in the firebox. [ Parent ]

Re: I'm jealous (3.00 / 0) (#12) by BigBreaker on Thu Sep 6th, 2007 at 07:18:02 AM MST (User Info)

Gasifiers extract more energy from the fuel, burn it more completely and generate much higher temperatures.  This can give you higher efficiency in your boiler.  That may not be a primary design criteria, especially if you are swimming in wood. The temps in a well tuned gasifier are insane.  It's basically a controlled chimney fire. [ Parent ]

PuffBalls (3.00 / 0) (#8) by TomW on Tue Sep 4th, 2007 at 01:14:32 PM MST (User Info)

George; Funny how big those things get. We used to eat a lot of them kissed with heat in a skillet with some butter and yummy. Just cut into big slabs eat the whole thing as a meal. I don't stomp thru the timber so much these days but I used to. Cheers. TomW "Education consists mainly of what we have unlearned."--Mark Twain

Re: PuffBalls (3.00 / 0) (#9) by jmk on Tue Sep 4th, 2007 at 04:08:37 PM MST (User Info)

I ate one before too. I made mine like pancakes with butter and syrup. They didn't taste like a regular mushroom, but if you already knew that then I guess they would taste better. I was expecting them to taste more like a store bought mushroom.  I like to hunt for morels in May. They are good with eggs, or pasta.  The steam engine is really cool! I burn wood in an out door wood boiler and always thought it would be great if they made them to run a steam engine too. jmk [ Parent ]

Re: Sept 0307 (3.00 / 0) (#13) by chadking (chad at honestnetworks.com) on Thu Sep 6th, 2007 at 12:43:33 PM MST (User Info) http://www.kingspd.com

Looks like a great setup and a lot of fun! You're dealing some pretty tried and true technology there. Keep us informed as you continue to pull electricity from it.   KingsPD - RealWorldStorage.com

Re: Sept 0307 (3.00 / 0) (#14) by JW on Fri Sep 7th, 2007 at 06:57:06 PM MST (User Info)

Thats very nice DanB,  Im really glad that your running straight wood. Its probably the most forgiving of all the 'solid fuels' out there. Since your running an 'APU' (AUXILLARY POWER UNIT) type of application, I dont see the traditional problems assosiated with mobile applications. Since your boosting your firebox drought with engine exhausted steam, you will not be wary of the engine 'half choking' its-self under various operating conditions. Such as going up hill. But your EPA emissions are always going to be lousy with wood. But wood will work about 60% as good as coal. With the pine im not sure... Ive heard of a few run-away boilers with this solid-fuel.  Interesting that you are using an 'ejector' driven by steam to introduce makeup water in your boiler setup.  Glad to see you are doing so well with this Steam Engine Project. JW

Re: Sept 0307 (3.00 / 0) (#15) by JW on Fri Sep 7th, 2007 at 09:17:18 PM MST (User Info)

This having been said,  There is a very important factor to figure. Basic Steam engines exhaust a tonn of usable heat. Id ditch the steam going thru the boiler combustion chamber, configuration. Emissions wise, the hotter the combustion stream the better, I cant see steam streamed into this, really making much of a diffence performance wise, at least in Dan's APU configuration. Now, as he starts to extract numbers closer too 3000w with the unit, some sort of draft booster will be critical, but id opt for a fan blowing air with a preheater tubing circuit in the fire, venting to that same fire.  Use all the exhaust steam to warm a very large capacity water heater instead. In this way, emissions of the wood burner could correct by a factor of 80%. Using the air-blower with pre heater, it should become immedietly apparent that this is working, by the direct difference in wood consuption, in the furnace.  Most who actually use wood for heating purposes, would be astonished, that the same amount of heat can be extracted from the waste cycle of a steam engine, using heat exchangers. The emissions of both cycles are well matched, unlike steam boosted drought combustion.  Dan you are dancing on the edge of Co-Generation and the like. The bonus is, the power in watts, that you can extract, from the APU, is a total bonus, hence demonstrating a more efficient overall system. Just think of being able to recharge your batterys and at the sametime, as being able to take the longest hot shower you want, while your able to do all the laundry for the week.... Drying included if your clever unuff. JW [ Parent ]

Re: Sept 0307 (3.00 / 0) (#16) by JW on Sat Sep 8th, 2007 at 05:12:55 PM MST (User Info)

Here's my thinking spot. :) JW [ Parent ]

Re: Sept 0307 (3.00 / 0) (#17) by mariasman on Sun Sep 9th, 2007 at 09:17:36 PM MST (User Info)

I've been thinking a lot on small scale steam power lately. Since you have a system already running, I wonder if you've yet tried something or might consider giving it a shot..... I've read that steam engines operating on relatively low pressure saturated steam and at low speed can tolerate quite literally NO external lubrication or even use vegetable oil. If that's the case, then a steam plant could double as a water distillery. You should be able to take raw water filtered of particulates, run it through your steam system, and get lots of hot potable water directly by collecting the condensate. You should be able to make electricity, potable water, and still have tons of waste heat to play with as well. Of course, one could use the exhaust steam to operate a more conventional distilling operation, but I find it interesting in the first case (to do it directly). Also, someone mentioned using the waste heat for laundry drying... well, why not?... hot water for laundry washing, and waste heat for drying. Sounds great to me. Also, it is certainly possible as well to use the waste heat to power a chill water system directly, but it's rather involved. Nevertheless, the prospect of using waste heat from a steam system for cooling is very attractive to me... a/c systems draw LOTS of electricity, and steam engines have low thermal efficiency (might as well use the steam system's attribute, the waste heat). Anyway, one could use a gear pump to send liquid refrigerant under pressure into a monotube heat exchanger over which the steam exhaust is sent (very little power required for pump).... the refrigerant picks up heat to vaporize... refrigerant vapor is sent through a venturi vacuum pump. Refrigerant exhausts to a condenser from which the aforementioned gear pump takes suction. The low pressure line of the venturi is attached to a refrigerant coil which is in turn attached to the liquid side of refrigerant condenser. A needle valve connecting the refrigerant condenser to the refrigerant coil will adjust the pressure in low pressure side of the system and effectively acts as a thermostat as well. The lower pressure induced by the venturi pump will cause the liquid refrigerant entering the coil through the needle valve to flash. The coil is surrounded by water contained in an insulated housing. The liquid refrigerant flashing to vapor will remove heat from the water. Cool water may then be distributed to air coolers in the home. Also, depending on the specifics of such a system, one could also get the temperature low enough to freeze a mass of ice. That way you could run the system only intermittently (every few days, for example) and charge batteries, produce water, do laundry, and make ice. Sure, it's rather involved, but it will certainly work. I hope you're interested enough to try it. Love the steam system.

Re: Wild Mushrooms (3.00 / 0) (#18) by WXYZCIENCE on Mon Sep 10th, 2007 at 09:47:48 PM MST (User Info)

DanB, Looks like you are moving full steam ahead. No mushroom category either.We just got back from a holiday in the Rocky Mountains. We were looking for wild mushrooms. Lactarius Deliciosus is what we found. One of the best tasting wild mushrooms around. Joseph.

Re: Wild Mushrooms (3.00 / 0) (#19) by JW on Tue Sep 11th, 2007 at 10:57:27 PM MST (User Info)

Hi Maria's Man, "I've been thinking a lot on small scale steam power lately. Since you have a system already running, I wonder if you've yet tried something or might consider giving it a shot..... I've read that steam engines operating on relatively low pressure saturated steam and at low speed can tolerate quite literally NO external lubrication or even use vegetable oil. "  This is simply not true. ALL vintage steam engines will operate 'ok' with @genuine STEAM CYL OIL. The oil viscosity grade tends to be rated with expected cylinder(CYL) operating temps(temperature) with the steam cyl oil. Like this. Its either 460, 680, or 800 something. Steam turbines in powerplants still use this type of oil. It contains 'tallow'. "and still have tons of waste heat to play with as well. "  Although this tends to be true, Fabrication(extensive) is required. The way I see it DanB is very smart. Since he has built a 'shed'. Thru the roof goes all the exhaust steam from the engine while its running. He does not have to worry about a collapsed lung, because the wind pushes the steam cloud, where's he working. Also, rain or shine he can operate, safely. Using waste heat sounds great at first glance, but getting everything 'correct' after the engineering change, is more difficult than it will seem, this is due to the fact it takes time to proof the design in a safety-redundant way. I like the fact that he's made this steam engine project make revolutions, the way it was initionally designed to run out of the box... I think snails(under-water salt-water[like {atlantic}conch]) taste better, than mushrooms, atleast just cooked in butter. But then again, I preffer my mushrooms with steak(suetayed) and some horsh-raddish. JW [ Parent ]

Re: Wild Mushrooms (3.00 / 0) (#20) by mariasman on Wed Sep 12th, 2007 at 11:52:52 AM MST (User Info)

I'll be the first to admit that my practical experience in small scale steam is nil, but I've read many accounts of low pressure saturated steam piston engines operating for long periods without oil lubrication. I recall one detailed account where a steam locomotive engine went 50,000 miles without lubricating oil (inadvertently, mind you) with no unusual cylinder wear resulting. Sure, steam cylinder oil would be best.   I appreciate the concerns that many have on this board with respect to "pipe dreams", but even the most practical designs that we take for granted today had to start somewhere. I love the steam system here as is. Sure, it would be a lot of work to design and build reliable and safe systems that put the waste heat to work, but it's well within the realm of possibility and no less difficult than many of the other projects on this site. It can be done. It can be very useful. It can be very safe. [ Parent ]

Re: Wild Mushrooms (3.00 / 0) (#21) by mariasman on Wed Sep 12th, 2007 at 02:41:10 PM MST (User Info)

(no MORE difficult than many of the other projects, that is)... BTW, I also want to emphasize that there are many more cases of such steam engines being lubricated with vegetable oils and even animals fats vs. no lubrication at all (I understand lard is a good steam cylinder lubricant). Assuming no harmful elements in the feed water other than microorganisms and a food grade lubricant used, since the boiler will kill anything is there any reason that the condensate would not be safe to consume? The other idea of using waste heat to cool water is a lot more difficult, but definitely possible... although getting the temp low enough to produce ice is doubtful, 50-60F chill water is reasonable. [ Parent ]

Re: Wild Mushrooms (3.00 / 0) (#22) by JW on Wed Sep 12th, 2007 at 05:05:06 PM MST (User Info)

mariasman, "Assuming no harmful elements in the feed water other than microorganisms and a food grade lubricant used, since the boiler will kill anything is there any reason that the condensate would not be safe to consume? " Now that is a pipe dream.... If you have never smelled real steam cyl oil, I can understand that statement. It smells like foul meat. There are various sources of 'tallow' ,boiled out whale carcases, cows, etc. It comes from mammals. The oil I use(shown in the picture), gets away from the old stored steam cyl oil, stories, like the best types have run out long ago. That stuff works pretty good, I use it with my steam engine projects. " I've read many accounts of low pressure saturated steam piston engines operating for long periods without oil lubrication. I recall one detailed account where a steam locomotive engine went 50,000 miles without lubricating oil " This happened for good reason mariasman,  These engines were run with 'good' steam cyl oils before such an occurence. Since these very high boiling point mammal fats, tend to penitrate the crystaline structures of most cast iron cylinder arrangements. The only way to weld such treated metal is that, it has to have, a high-temp caustic wash. Steam alone cannot wash it out of the metal structure. You will have to forgive me, mariasman. For the past 2 days Ive been welding magnesium, with a tig welder using a slightly radio-active tungston. That as well can be done safely, we had no fires. JW [ Parent ]

Re: Wild Mushrooms (3.00 / 0) (#23) by mariasman on Wed Sep 12th, 2007 at 07:37:02 PM MST (User Info)

You will have to forgive me, but I still do not understand how it would necessarily be unsafe to consume the condensate. You've made a case only for a steam engine using steam cylinder oil lubrication. However, I can't imagine how it would be unsafe in the case of no lubrication or using vegetable oil. The boiler will kill any microorganisms, so you don't have to worry about that. Assuming the water source contains no other dangerous substances (toxins, heavy metals, chemicals, etc), and the steam system is not adding any dangerous substances (no lubrication or vegetable oil), then the water should be safe to consume. Seriously, I'm not trying to be cheeky here, but it seems pretty simple. Do you disagree? [ Parent ]

Re: Wild Mushrooms (3.00 / 0) (#24) by mariasman on Wed Sep 12th, 2007 at 07:47:10 PM MST (User Info)

Perhaps the following scenario would clarify what I'm trying to say: Assume a new steam engine uncontaminated with any steam cylinder oil is operated at a very low speed on low pressure saturated steam. The water source is distilled water. There is no lubricating oil of any kind added. Would it be unsafe to consume the exhaust condensate? [ Parent ]

Re: Wild Mushrooms (3.00 / 0) (#25) by TomW on Wed Sep 12th, 2007 at 08:13:15 PM MST (User Info)

Just out of curiosity, what does this have to do with Wild Mushrooms? [see "Subject"] T [ Parent ]

Re: Wild Mushrooms (3.00 / 0) (#26) by JW on Wed Sep 12th, 2007 at 08:36:49 PM MST (User Info)

Hi There mariasman,  "You will have to forgive me, but I still do not understand how it would necessarily be unsafe to consume the condensate. " Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Let me see,  HEAVY METALS FOR ONE... Ok, ok, im calm now. "Assuming the water source contains no other dangerous substances (toxins, heavy metals, chemicals, etc), "  Never-ever assume this,  'it' 'makes' 'an' 'ass' 'out' 'of' 'you', 'and' 'an' 'ass' 'out' 'of 'me'....   Ok, ok. "I'm not trying to be cheeky here, but it seems pretty simple. Do you disagree?" YES, totally. "Assume a new steam engine uncontaminated with any steam cylinder oil is operated at a very low speed on low pressure saturated steam. The water source is distilled water. There is no lubricating oil of any kind added. Would it be unsafe to consume the exhaust condensate?"  No. but, It would grind-up like the brakes on your wife's car, after you promised to change the pad's 3 months ago.... :) "Just out of curiosity, what does this have to do with Wild Mushrooms? [see "Subject"] T "  Nothing, except for the fact somethings are better fried in butter than steamed. JW [ Parent ]

Re: Wild Mushrooms (3.00 / 0) (#27) by mariasman on Wed Sep 12th, 2007 at 09:27:36 PM MST (User Info)

Ok, then use vegetable oil... maybe even the same kind to fry the mushrooms? ;-) [ Parent ]

Login

Make a new account Username: Password:

Total Views

238 Scoop users have viewed this posting.

Related Links

· Also by DanB